592 réponses à ce sujet

[GMagnum]

dam saphra deden went hella hard 2 dam dis bout 2 be huge tbh

[Ravensword]

Careful people. You're upsetting Saphra.

Modifié par Ravensword, 11 novembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Izhalezan]

There will always be sacrifices.... it's up to us to make sure they're worth it...

[GMagnum]

dere will always be ......it's up 2 us to make sure they 

dam bleeped dat out cuz i got b& 4 talkin bout dat stuff tbh

Modifié par GMagnum, 11 novembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[Izhalezan]

Ruhspect yo, ruhspect.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well it worked didn't it?

And that, my friends, is TIM's mindset.  He does horrible, atrocious things because he believes it will be worth it in the end.  Because whatever goal or technology or political advantage he may gain is worth the price.  He'll do anything for power.

THAT is why no one should be surprised by what he does in ME3.

So I don't know where you are getting the idea that TIM is incredibly reckless. He does take risks, but they are reasonable ones. Fighting Shepard in ME3 is just not something he needs to do. It isn't even a risk, it is just dumb and pointless.

There's nothing reasonable about mass murder.

Shepard's goals are contrary to TIM's, and therefore (s)he is an adversary by default.

[GMagnum]

DAAAAAAAAAAYUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

id hate 2 be saphra rite now tho w/ dat last post saphra went hard lez see how dis go tbh

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

GMagnum wrote...

dam saphra deden went hella hard 2 dam dis bout 2 be huge tbh

I'm making popcorn.

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Lives are not things to be sacrificed lightly, I'm not sure that Cerberus' gain is always justified in costs.

Sacrifice some lives to save other lives. If TIM listened to people like you the entire Horizon colony would have been taken by the Collectors.

You make a large assumption on such a small line of text.  People like me do not like being mind read, when in fact, you lack that skill.

Since we're talking about what I am and am not willing to do to save lives, I will give you an example of my position on such things; unless of course you already have that figured out.

The nuclear bomb drops in Japan at the end of WWII were an acceptable expendature of life to stop the possible loss of even greater numbers on both sides.  Because we used the bomb, Japan was able to rebuild relatively quickly, and not see a path burned from Okinawa to Tokyo.  Millions of lives were saved at the cost of tens of thousands.  A horrible tragedy, but a neccesary one.

When TIM acts like this, I support his actions.  For the moment, our goals align.  He gambles that an old comrade of Shepard's will attract the collectors, and thus allow a few goals to be reached.  He is now positive that they are tracking Shepard.  He is also now positive that Mordin's countermeasure will work.  Both were neccesary.  As my Shepard, it is a betrayal, and morally bankrupt to endanger the colony to prove these things out.  In TIMs seat, however, I can't say that I'd differ in approach.

TIM was probably also aware of indoctrination, judging by what he's seen of Reaper tech.  To send a team to retreve anything from a dormant reaper without safeguards was wreckless and a waste of manpower.  Had he rotated teams in and out of the reaper, indoctrination would have not happened immediately, and he could have studied the long term effects of being removed from that enviroment and whether or not someone can recover from indoctrination (wasted opportunity through wrecklessness).  He could have still gained the neccesary IFF from the reaper with rotating teams.  With proper staffing, it would even be possible to obtain this at the same speed he achieved with one static team.  To send Shepard in after the fact was one of his standard calculated risks.  Still, his actions before this were not well informed, uncharacteristic, unless he truly did not care to preserve his pawns, or, at the very least, use them for multiple goals.

He may have been rushing, but he certainly could have prepared and studied the dead reaper better, he just chose not to because his resources don't have high enough worth to him.

Does this clarify where people like me stand?

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 11 novembre 2011 - 05:03 .

[GMagnum]

omg saphra gettin stomped da hell out tbh dam some1 call 9-1-1 plz

[Xilizhra]

If it can possibly be avoided, I would never work for humanity's cancer ever again.

[DiebytheSword]

Xilizhra wrote...

If it can possibly be avoided, I would never work for humanity's cancer ever again.

I like the way you think.

[IanPolaris]

DiebytheSword wrote...

He may have been rushing, but he certainly could have prepared and studied the dead reaper better, he just chose not to because his resources don't have high enough worth to him.

Does this clarify where people like me stand?

Exactly.  To continue the Chess Analogy, one of the things that seperates Chess Masters and Grand Masters from talented amatures is their pawn resource management in the mid-game.  It is worth it to sacrifice a pawn?  Sometimes, but it has to be done carefully with the overall goal firmly in mind.

TIM uses his people the same way a Chess amature uses his pawns.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[GMagnum]

dam dis popcorn hella gud any1 got butter

[IanPolaris]

Actally in ME1 Anderson explains the difference to a Renegade Shep (or a Paragon one too) when discussing Saren's willingness to let an industrial plant burn killing hundreds just to make sure his target was dead. Anderson said, "I know how the world works. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions, but only if there is no other way. Saren didn't even stop to consider if there were other options. I think he's broken. He likes the violence."

That is from memory, but I am sure it's almost entirely correct.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

There's nothing reasonable about mass murder.

Sure there is. You enjoy the benefits of it every day of your life.

Just because we enjoy the benefits of some horrific research that was done in WWII by the Axis doesn't mean it was reasonable.  However, to quote Mordin, "Those people are dead.  If we don't use what was learned, they died for nothing."  That doesn't make the act reasonable.  It merely means that the most good was extracted from utterly evil acts.

Also, @Polaris you are jumping to conclusions about the derelict Reaper and making assumptions.

Actually I wasn't the one "making the assumptions", but the Dead Reaper Indoctrination worked just like the Virmire base and for that matter Object Rho, so I think it's largely correct.  TIM knowingly and deliberately wasted lives he didn't have to waste and that has been a modus operandi of Cerebus for a while now.

-Polaris

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Since I now know what they're really up to, yes, but only on some playthroughs. You gotta admit that succeeding at what they're trying to do in ME3 would in fact be awsome (and is on option Shepard can take upon himself apparently).

[IanPolaris]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

Since I now know what they're really up to, yes, but only on some playthroughs. You gotta admit that succeeding at what they're trying to do in ME3 would in fact be awsome (and is on option Shepard can take upon himself apparently).

However, the fact that Shepard CAN do this apparently is what makes is so dumb for Cerebus to turn on him (at least for some Shepards...for others it would be inevitable).

-Polaris

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That doesn't make him reckless or wasteful so it doesn't in any way justify ME3.

He could have made a better biotic with gentler, more humane experiments.  He could have focused on mechanized troopers instead of husks and rachni.  He could have demanded Archer be careful with his brother and adequeately understand as many outcomes as possible before plugging him in.  He could have told Shepard about the trap.  He could have taken more steps to protect the people of Horizon if he planned to use the colony as bait.  He could have paid more heed to what happened with Saren before he implanted Grayson, and he could have chosen a willing volunteer instead of kidnapping an adversary.

Wasteful.  Reckless.

Sure there is. You enjoy the benefits of it every day of your life.

Do you really believe that?  Do you really believe nearly wiping out countless cultures just for land and resources that ultimately weren't needed at the time was a good thing?

If you do, then you're sick.  I'm sorry.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

IanPolaris wrote...

However, the fact that Shepard CAN do this apparently is what makes is so dumb for Cerebus to turn on him (at least for some Shepards...for others it would be inevitable).

-Polaris

It seems so on paper, but may make more sense in context.  They may be trying to do it via science instead of the spoiler means, or just not trust Shepard to do it, since the very fact that he has been out to destroy the reapers since ME1 would hint to them that he won't, or something........

[IanPolaris]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

However, the fact that Shepard CAN do this apparently is what makes is so dumb for Cerebus to turn on him (at least for some Shepards...for others it would be inevitable).

-Polaris

It seems so on paper, but may make more sense in context.  They may be trying to do it via science instead of the spoiler means, or just not trust Shepard to do it, since the very fact that he has been out to destroy the reapers since ME1 would hint to them that he won't, or something........

Well like I implied above, I think it depends on the Shepard.  If you are playing a Renegade Shep that wants to "win at any cost" (appropriate for the Torfan Background), then all TIM would have to do is tell her (my renegade Sheps tend to be FemSheps) and she would likely agree that this is the best way.  Futhermore after working with her for months TIM should know that she'd be reasonable about such an approach (and Miranda and Jacob could both attest to it as well).

Near as I can tell, TIM never gives Shep (no matter what background or decisions you made) the option.

So Cerberus hostility makes perfect sense for a Paragon Shep (esp one that nuked the Collector Base) but I am not sure it makes sense for some Renegade Sheps.

-Polaris