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Baldur's Gate voted best series by game devs...


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#1
FedericoV

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Strangely, no one has posted that news but I think that it would be interesting to discuss the implication of it for the DA franchise:

http://www.eurogamer...is-baldurs-gate

A pool of 1000 game devs have voted the BG series as the best game ever made. You look at GoG sales and BG trilogy is allways at the top. You look at amazon sales and BG trylogy is allways in the top 100 for PC (this summer it was even ahead of DA2 for a long moment). DA:O sold very well and gained a lot of attention even becase it was named as "BG2 spiritual successor". There are still people making great mods for BG2.

So, the question is simple: if BG is still so popular for devs and players alike, more than 10 years after ToB, why no one in the business make a true spiritual successor of it? Why pass from the DA:O format (wich at least was closer to BG2) to the DA2 format?

I'm sure there are reasons but I still fail to understand them completely.

Modifié par FedericoV, 10 novembre 2011 - 01:13 .


#2
Stanley Woo

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FedericoV wrote...
So, the question is simple: if BG is still so popular for devs and players alike, more than 10 years after ToB, why no one in the business make a true spiritual successor of it? Why pass from the DA:O format (wich at least was closer to BG2) to the DA2 format?

1. Ten years is a long time. Look at what communications, computing, and gaming technologies we've gotten in the last 10 years: always on internet, mass adoption of broadband, social media, online consoles, social gaming, mobile gaming, ubiquitous cell phones, mass texting, Twitter, Facebook, digital distribution, DLC, videogames going mainstream, photorealistic graphics, fully voiced PC, digital acting, motion capture, cinematic gaming. You're not going to get the same kinds of gaming experience these days as you got then because the context in which those games were created are no longer the same.

2. Nostalgia is unrealiable as a gauge of what people like. You look at BG and BG2 and you "remember" how good they were. Well, those feelings and that game experience is based on your experiences up to that point, based on who you were at the time, and based on what other experiences were available. At the time, BG and BG2 were some of the most epic stories and game experiences around. Today, everyone who played, remembered and loved BG have played 10 years' worth of other games, have experienced 10 years' worth of life and gaming experiences, and the further away they get from their BG days, the more they'll remember only the good feelings and ignore the intervening time. Look at the Transformers cartoon. I loved the show as a kid, but when I watched it on DVD, I was screaming obscenities at the hackneyed stories and overly simplistic character motivations!

3. "Spiritual successor" means different things to different people. When we used that phrase to market DAO, we got a lot of flak from people who interpreted the phrase differently than others did. For some, the "spirit" of BG was Dungeons & Dragons. For some, it was the wide open world. For others, it was the difficulty level. For others, the strength of antagonists like Jon Irenicus and Sarevok. For still others, extensive character buildilng or story pacing. Or any combination thereof. There is no way you can make a "spiritual successor" to anything and please everyone.

4. Game developers have to keep trying new things in order to succeed, keep attracting new players, and keeping up with new technologies and trends. As much as people will scream for experiences like BG or DAO even today, making games that are carbon copies of previous games isn't seen as very creative. Look at the negative perception that EA Sports games have. Even in this community, those games are seen as "cheap cash grabs," games that can't or won't innovate because they come out annually. the implication here is that people want something new, not just something rehashed from last year. So why, then, do RPG players seem to want the exact same thing that came out not last year, but ten years ago?

5. Competition. There is so much out there now that competes for people's attention. This is related to #1 and #4.

Those are some big concepts, I know, but the question comes up frequently and people seem to forget that there is an entire universe out there that has advanced and changed over time. The videogame industry is not a zero-sum system, nor can it be easily defined with a binary choice (love BG vs. don't love BG, success vs. failure).

#3
Stanley Woo

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Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

#4
Stanley Woo

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Phaedros wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?


Finally!

Got it in one...

What took so long for so few words...   ?

I misinterpreted something on the internet, got defensive and felt the need to prove how right I was. You know, i became an internetter! :)

#5
Stanley Woo

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes!

DAO is a terrific game.  It's not a perfect game, but it's still a wonderful RPG experience.

Man, it's so weird to see you praising a BioWare game unreservedly and without further commentary!

#6
Stanley Woo

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Let's get back on topic, please. If you insist on arguing about arguing, this thread will be closed.

#7
Stanley Woo

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Sareth Cousland wrote...

All good and valid points. I have picked out number 4 for one criticism - the problem is that innovation for innovation's sake is just not sensible. You have to innovate for your target group, or for a newly defined target group that is at least as large as your old target group.

I agree with that.

With DA2, you left the soul of the Dragon Age franchise behind. Over-the-top arcade action and JRPG elements do not fit at all into the DA world, and they do not appeal to your average DA gamer. Sales figures for DA2 should have proven that by now, but I'm wondering how focus group testing could have yielded such terribly wrong results.

Many people are using the results of our decisions to try and "prove" that ourdecisions were wrong, and I disagree with that. by my way of thinking, we made decisions that weren't terribly popular and ended up not succeeding either at all or not as much as we would have liked. but those decisions were, in all ways, ours to make, and at the time we made them, they were good ones. Up until release, there is no way to determine how such decisions would affect sales, or even if they would. Would our core audience accept them? would we succeed in attracting a new audience with these changes? Obviously, we would have had a positive opinion.

And i still don't understand where the "JRPG" is in Dragon Age II. i can see where "over-the-top arcade action" comes in, even though i think that phrase to be a little exaggerated, but "JRPG"? i just don't see it.

Look at the target group of DA:O, and get back to the soul of Origins. DA2 was a revolution, when an evolution would have been preferable. Go back to DA:O, realize what people loved about it, and refine the experience for DA3. DA2 was a good game, but it was such a large step into the wrong direction that I would really recommend to start anew from DA:O and not create a hybrid that is not going to please either fanbase.

An entirely fair comment, and we have heard it many times. it's a great way to summarize some of the problems people had with DA2, and I wish more people in the community could just say it like you did instead of freaking out about it. :)

Thank you for your comments, Sareth Cousland.

#8
Stanley Woo

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I'm seeing shades of a "what is an RPG?" discussion lurking around here. Let's please remember that our game experiences are different from other people's and not necessarily the best, only, or "right" ones.

#9
Stanley Woo

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I think this discussion thread has run its course over the last few months, and is no longer really about DA2. Thanks, everyone!

End of line.