360 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Phaedros wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

Finally!

Got it in one...

What took so long for so few words...   ?

I misinterpreted something on the internet, got defensive and felt the need to prove how right I was. You know, i became an internetter!

[Stanley Woo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes!

DAO is a terrific game.  It's not a perfect game, but it's still a wonderful RPG experience.

Man, it's so weird to see you praising a BioWare game unreservedly and without further commentary!

[Atakuma]

So what? None of that really means anything.

[Firky]

simfamSP wrote...

Well, I'd be very happy with another BG. (But I was also happy with DAO and DAII.)

No you wouldn't... at all, trust me on that one I'd bet fans would be so dissapointed they'd cry themselves to sleep every night.

That was in response to me. I don't understand what you mean.

[xCirdanx]

simfamSP wrote...

No you wouldn't... at all, trust me on that one I'd bet fans would be so dissapointed they'd cry themselves to sleep every night.

Well, i do think you are a bit exaggerating but i agree with you The Bhaalspawn series is done for me and it was great. However i wouldn´t mind a new RPG in the Forgotten Realms setting, as long as it is well done. I think this IP has just so much potential when it comes to story telling.

Modifié par xCirdanx, 11 novembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

Yes!

DAO is a terrific game.  It's not a perfect game, but it's still a wonderful RPG experience.

I like these humans, they understand.

[twincast]

Yup; DA:O wasn't perfect, but it was close enough and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the major difference between the parts of an RPG series being the plots and stories while the gameplay mechanics and other features only slowly and steadily move forward through a reasonable amount of refinements and additions, not wholesale cuts and changes for the sake of change and an awesome button. And of course a part of six offers way more tactical options, but I'm perfectly fine with DA:O's four man teams as well.

And the one thing I miss the most from the BG games? Large, lively settlements. Athkatla is still my favorite town/city in any RPG and TBH even any game at all.

But while I've got a kind of love-hate going with D&D (heavily dependent on edition to boot) and its loathed spells per day (The Dark Eye manages to use mana and stamina "bars" just fine and it's not the only P&P RPG to do so.), there's nothing worse than (repeatedly!) heading off to do a companion's side quest only for them to leave my party for good to go off to do their side quest(!!) because apparently I've waited too long and then having to decide between losing either a party member pretty important on a personal level or hours of often difficult progression.

[Pygmali0n]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Phaedros wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

Finally!

Got it in one...

What took so long for so few words...   ?

I misinterpreted something on the internet, got defensive and felt the need to prove how right I was. You know, i became an internetter!

That's a beautiful moment, and explains a lot. Let peace reign throughout the net. I'm pretty certain I've been patronising towards you in the past Stan, it was because I misinterpreted your motives and thought you were being intellectually dishonest (the brutal and often ignorant honesty of forums doesn't help either), so I'm sorry for that.

[Rawgrim]

I think that this thread pretty much proves something. The BG games, and Dragon Age Origins all have some flaws here and there. Mostly in the mechanics of the games. But they give us one damn roleplaying feeling when playing them. Games that give roleplayers that, are very easily forgiven for their shortcomings.

So make a game that gives player a damn good roleplaying experience, and you can get away with anything.

[Cyberarmy]

I'm Turnip commander Jan Jansen and this is my favorite post on Bioware forums

[FedericoV]

Rawgrim wrote...

I think that this thread pretty much proves something. The BG games, and Dragon Age Origins all have some flaws here and there. Mostly in the mechanics of the games. But they give us one damn roleplaying feeling when playing them. Games that give roleplayers that, are very easily forgiven for their shortcomings.

So make a game that gives player a damn good roleplaying experience, and you can get away with anything.

That's a very interesting position and if you mixed it with with my "garme journalizts do not get why classic RPGs are so fun and beloved by a lot of players" argument you have a nice overall picture.

So, I've got another question: does Bioware listen TOO MUCH to criticism? Especially garme reviewerz? I mean, game journalist are overglorified gamers, people like us who simply get paid to play games.

Modifié par FedericoV, 11 novembre 2011 - 08:29 .

[FedericoV]

simfamSP wrote...

Well, I'd be very happy with another BG. (But I was also happy with DAO and DAII.)

No you wouldn't... at all, trust me on that one I'd bet fans would be so dissapointed they'd cry themselves to sleep every night.

Are you sure mate? I mean, the format of the game would need some changes and fix here and there, especially in the presentation department. But, imho, a 4th edition D&D game (or similar rule system) settled in the FR (or another interesting fantasy setting like Thedas) with iso view, party-based gameplay, semi turn-based combat, a rich world full of choices and consequences, a deep rule system, lots of unique powers, spells and items, unique NPCs like Minsc Edwin or HK-47 and an epic overall story that relate to the main charachter, would be a garantueed success and an instant classic.

Modifié par FedericoV, 11 novembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes!

DAO is a terrific game.  It's not a perfect game, but it's still a wonderful RPG experience.

Man, it's so weird to see you praising a BioWare game unreservedly and without further commentary!

Is it?  Until you started voicing the protagonist, I loved BioWare's RPGs.  Even the one I expected to dislike - Jade Empire - was a lot of fun.

It was because you guys were doing such a great job that my efforts to improve the games were focused on esoteric details like inventory management and camera control.

DA2, however, has established a new (lower) level of performance which requires much bigger fixes.  Inventory management, which I still care about, isn't close to its biggest problem, so I'd just be muddying the waters by talking about it.

When I criticised a game like KotOR, I talked about how the list inventory was slow to navigate, how the game's power curve was too steep (it didn't feel credible that the PC would grow that strong that quickly), and how that PC was always forced to be the party's spokesperson, even when it would have made more sense to Canderous or Bastila to do the talking.  My only substantive gameplay complaint was that the player could only direct one character at a time, and queued orders for one character were immediately forgotten as soon as a different character was selected.

That's fairly thin sauce, because the bulk of the game was extremely well done.

I could provide similarly insubstantial lists for NWN or BG2, because those games were also very very good.  The list for DAO might be a bit bigger and deal more with the meat of the game, but the things DAO didn't do well pale in comparison to DA2's failings.  Yes, I still want you to scrap the list inventory.  I still want you to stop giving free XP to unused party members.  But my desire to have you stop contradicting my character design is much, much stronger.

[freche]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

DAO was one of the better RPGs in years when it came, but it had nothing of the epic-ness of the BG serie.
(I play the BG series once / year and still even knowing where things are and where to go I'd vote it to the best games ever made (comparing it with all games I have played up to date)).

What I think the BG serie made so well was that you where growing into your character. Starting out as a nobody just knowing someone wants you dead for unknown reason, discovering your past and who you are. Also the connection with the antagonists (which wants more then just destroy the world because they are evil!)

In DAO, you get thrown into being a Grey Warden, you have no connection, no feelings for the Grey Warden it's more like "Ok, I'm a Grey Warden now. So what? Nothing special".
And there is no personal goal for the character you just get forced to save the world from a big bad evil dragon that wants to destroy it because of no other reason then it's evil.

I don't say every RPG should play out like BG, but I think the characters shouldn't be rushed into a pre-defined role that is set to do a specific task.
Let the character grow on the player, don't be afraid to use the same character over two games, or 1 game & an expansion (instead of 40hours(1 game) of story you can get  60hours or 80hours)

[Fylimar]

Although I love Dragon Age very much, my favorite is still Baldurs Gate. I would love to see a new BG game.
And I know, it's the wrong developer here, but since someone mentioned it: a new Vampire the Masquerade RPG would be cool.
But to stay at topic: Hooray for BG

[philippe willaume]

csfteeeer wrote...

philippe willaume wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.

So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

Yes it is.
But it is not that the premises of DA2 missed the mark per se.
DA2 had all that was need to be a good successor to DA2. DA:0 was not exactly the same as BG
the mage vs templar is epic by nature it is a world changing event.

you MAY wanna fix that....

hello csfteeeer
Well to be constructive we need to see the + and - on both side, otherewise it is just an exchange of mutually exclusive certitude and as opposed to  medieval fencing interpreation people can try it out.

I mean, it is preatty clear in all my post that I don't think DA2 is really up to the standard of DA:O and that by a fair  margin.
Now really
The deep road expedition could have been another anvil of of doom or something like the great escape.
Chantry vs Quun or The mage vs templar, You can't tell me that it is not something that is world reaching.

For me DA2, is symbolised by the combat or the companions and the main strory-lines are affected the same way.
Conceptually, it is leaps and bounds better than DA:O but somehow it does fall short in realisation and DA:O end up being a much more satisfactory experience.

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 11 novembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[Sinuphro]

FedericoV wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

What is Vancian casting?

D&D magic system was "inspired" by Jack Vances's fantasy books. Jack Vance is one of the greatest sci-fi and fantasy authors (I love the Lyonesse series). In the Dying Earth series he introduced a system where magician has to prepare their spells like "magic bombs" that are consumed when the spell is cast. That's the basic concept behind vancian magic systems. You have to study spells from your grimoire in order to memorize them and once you casted them, you cannot use them anymore and the spell is "erased" from your memory. That's the opposite of "mana pool" magic system that has become the norm in the current age.

I know, vancian magic is not elegant but it was perfect for strategic and tactical games because it rewarded planning.

i don't like vancian casting

[bEVEsthda]

Sinuphro wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

What is Vancian casting?

D&D magic system was "inspired" by Jack Vances's fantasy books. Jack Vance is one of the greatest sci-fi and fantasy authors (I love the Lyonesse series). In the Dying Earth series he introduced a system where magician has to prepare their spells like "magic bombs" that are consumed when the spell is cast. That's the basic concept behind vancian magic systems. You have to study spells from your grimoire in order to memorize them and once you casted them, you cannot use them anymore and the spell is "erased" from your memory. That's the opposite of "mana pool" magic system that has become the norm in the current age.

I know, vancian magic is not elegant but it was perfect for strategic and tactical games because it rewarded planning.

i don't like vancian casting

<shrugs> Vancian casting seem a bit crude, as adapted to pen and paper resources to play it on. But otherwise it's ok. And I'm absolutely sure I like vancian casting about one hundred times better than those lazy, ultra-convenient auto-regen mana systems which are the norm these days.

[R0vena]

freche wrote...

What I think the BG serie made so well was that you where growing into your character. Starting out as a nobody just knowing someone wants you dead for unknown reason, discovering your past and who you are. Also the connection with the antagonists (which wants more then just destroy the world because they are evil!)

In DAO, you get thrown into being a Grey Warden, you have no connection, no feelings for the Grey Warden it's more like "Ok, I'm a Grey Warden now. So what? Nothing special".
And there is no personal goal for the character you just get forced to save the world from a big bad evil dragon that wants to destroy it because of no other reason then it's evil.

I don't say every RPG should play out like BG, but I think the characters shouldn't be rushed into a pre-defined role that is set to do a specific task.
Let the character grow on the player, don't be afraid to use the same character over two games, or 1 game & an expansion (instead of 40hours(1 game) of story you can get  60hours or 80hours)

Very much this.
Hawke was the step in right direction, but his becoming the Champion still felt kind of rush.

ps I love BG and still replay it sometimes...

Modifié par R0vena, 11 novembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[Xewaka]

Stanley Woo wrote...
Cool, people are clarifying and getting more specific on the kinds of things they want to see in a BioWare game. It seems I had misinterpreted what people were asking for.
So... people aren't asking us to recreate Baldur's Gate. They want us to create a game that will give them a similar experience of epic-ness, immersion, and sense of value as the BG series? Kind of like what we did with DAO? Is that correct?

While no two people will agree on what components make epic-ness and immersion,there is one thing clear: You (as a company) should let go. Stop trying to direct the player experience through your own very narrow vision of what the experience should be. Let the player make his own experience within the frame you give him. Let the player itself create his value. If they find themselves enjoying the authored narrative, they will like the game. If they find themselves enjoying the little side details, they will enjoy the game. No, I am not advocating for a full sandbox. I am advocating for open endedness. I am advocating for giving the player back what should've never been taken away in an attempt to be more cinematic: The character. It's as simple as that. Give us back the character ownership.

Modifié par Xewaka, 11 novembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[bEVEsthda]

R0vena wrote...

freche wrote...

What I think the BG serie made so well was that you where growing into your character. Starting out as a nobody just knowing someone wants you dead for unknown reason, discovering your past and who you are. Also the connection with the antagonists (which wants more then just destroy the world because they are evil!)

In DAO, you get thrown into being a Grey Warden, you have no connection, no feelings for the Grey Warden it's more like "Ok, I'm a Grey Warden now. So what? Nothing special".
And there is no personal goal for the character you just get forced to save the world from a big bad evil dragon that wants to destroy it because of no other reason then it's evil.

I don't say every RPG should play out like BG, but I think the characters shouldn't be rushed into a pre-defined role that is set to do a specific task.
Let the character grow on the player, don't be afraid to use the same character over two games, or 1 game & an expansion (instead of 40hours(1 game) of story you can get  60hours or 80hours)

Very much this.
Hawke was the step in right direction, but his becoming the Champion still felt kind of rush.

ps I love BG and still replay it sometimes...

While I agree on BG related musings, I doubt many DA:O fans recognize the portraying of lack of connection to the Warden. And that "Hawke was the step in right direction" seems even more alien. If I wasn't so sure both of you actually did play DA:O, I would otherwise call out on that. Because you get a much more thorough planting in the would-be Warden early in Origins, than you ever get in Hawke, even when you have finished that game.

[R0vena]

bEVEsthda wrote...

R0vena wrote...

freche wrote...

What I think the BG serie made so well was that you where growing into your character. Starting out as a nobody just knowing someone wants you dead for unknown reason, discovering your past and who you are. Also the connection with the antagonists (which wants more then just destroy the world because they are evil!)

In DAO, you get thrown into being a Grey Warden, you have no connection, no feelings for the Grey Warden it's more like "Ok, I'm a Grey Warden now. So what? Nothing special".
And there is no personal goal for the character you just get forced to save the world from a big bad evil dragon that wants to destroy it because of no other reason then it's evil.

I don't say every RPG should play out like BG, but I think the characters shouldn't be rushed into a pre-defined role that is set to do a specific task.
Let the character grow on the player, don't be afraid to use the same character over two games, or 1 game & an expansion (instead of 40hours(1 game) of story you can get  60hours or 80hours)

Very much this.
Hawke was the step in right direction, but his becoming the Champion still felt kind of rush.

ps I love BG and still replay it sometimes...

While I agree on BG related musings, I doubt many DA:O fans recognize the portraying of lack of connection to the Warden. And that "Hawke was the step in right direction" seems even more alien. If I wasn't so sure both of you actually did play DA:O, I would otherwise call out on that. Because you get a much more thorough planting in the would-be Warden early in Origins, than you ever get in Hawke, even when you have finished that game.

I meant that the Warden gets in the position of power very quickly. As soom as (s)he becomes the Warden everybody is giving her/him a lot of respect. Hawke had to work a bit longer for that.