288 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

Hey everyone. I normally don't do this, but I am sitting in a library right now writing a master thesis on Chinese histroy, so I am pretty bored as it is.

A while back, I was picked up for a website to write articles containing Character Studies about video game characters. One of the ones that was written was about Anders and his decent into madness, so to speak. Now I am not going to beg people to check out the website just to give it hits, but I was re-reading it in preparation for a new article and I realized something; Why haven't I brought this up to anyone else yet?

Now I have no true psychology degree, so a lot of the information in the article (Linked at the bottom if you care to read it) is from a laymans perspective. But I found the results, and my own feelings on the matter pretty surprising in the fact that it seems like the point of the final act of the game, and of Anders as a character, is not just about the actions of him, but rather the overarching consequences and the stigma it shall receive in the Dragon Age universe, in conjunction with how we, the players, see it as well.

I know not everyone was satisfied with Anders, or the game in general, but I always felt like that ending was the hardest decision I ever had to make in terms of a  narrative standpoint since it is so inter-connected to everything else in the Dragon Age universe. It boils down to how we perceive Anders actions basically, an act of full scale rebellion, or a desprate act of terrorism. In the end, the stigma will not go away, and that seems to be the point of everything; that Anders did change Thedas, for better or worse, and how everyone views it will determine how we will symbolically view it.

But I am rambling on a bit here. I am curious to hear from you guys on what your opinion might be on this. If you like to read the article, if not, the basic question then is simple; how do you perceive Anders actions based on what he did in game? Is it an act of terrorism, or the first shot in open rebellion? Is it something entirely different from that? 

www.blisteredthumbs.net/2011/09/cwc-anders/1/

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 novembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[Gabey5]

To see major change happen drastic steps and sacrifices are needed, plain and simple. Were the deaths unfortunate? Yes. But to be free you must fight for it. The mages will never be free unless the fight as one.

So if freedom of mages is your goal you will have to go to war and kill many

[Killjoy Cutter]

Anders' bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry was an act of senseless murder that did nothing to advance the cause of mages. I have never hesitated to kill him, and wish that a pro-mage Hawke could express more rage and disgust at the senseless stupidity of it. It is one of my great disappointments in DA2 that there is no opportunity to prevent it.

[Herr Uhl]

It is terrorism even if it is a rebellion. The think that makes me despise the act is that he has absolutely no idea about what to actually do, his plan is: 1) blow up chantry 2) get killed 3) ??? 4) freedom and justice for all.

[Gervaise]

Anders action cannot be seen in isolation since much of what is going on in Kirkwall is actually connected to the activities of the Resolutionists in the wider world, whose avowed aim is to show people how little protection the Circle really offers them (they are talking about the main populace not the mages). In other words, terrorising people into giving them what they want. This is not going to encourage people into trusting mages with their freedom.

My Hawke mages try very hard to show that they will not abuse their power, particularly after they become the high profile champion. Mind you, much of their efforts was always being undermined by other people. Anders bombing of the Chantry started off a war as he knew it would. Is war always necessary to bring about change?

Anders seemed to be basing his action on the history of Andraste - the only way to bring down the Thedas wide Imperium and remove mages from power was through war, so the only way to bring down the

[Gervaise]

Pressed the wrong button! .....so the only way to bring down the current system is through war.

However, there is another precedent - that of Sebastian's ancestor who removed a tyrant from power by staging a fast/sit in on the steps of the Chantry and was then asked to rule in his place, even though that is not what he had been trying to achieve. We will never know, if the way of "passive resistance" (Ghandi style) would have worked, since Anders has ensured that is no longer an option.

On the whole I would suggest that bombing a civilian target has never been considered a good way to bring about change.

[cihimi]

Why bomb the chantry with defenseless people in it? Why not go directly to the Templar HQ and bomb Meredith and the rest of the Kirkwall Order? Too much work compared to entering the chantry, pretending to pray or something and plant your magic IED?

Anders even had the gall to tell Hawke that his death will serve as inspiration? Hardly. Inspiration for what? Most probabaly inspiration to not let spirits own you. Anders had an idea. He just never thought about it thoroughly. Or maybe he did. He just wasn't that bright to begin with.

[General User]

cihimi wrote...

Why bomb the chantry with defenseless people in it? Why not go directly to the Templar HQ and bomb Meredith and the rest of the Kirkwall Order? Too much work compared to entering the chantry, pretending to pray or something and plant your magic IED?

Yep.  Looking for and striking at 'soft targets' for political impact is a prominent characteristic of terrorists.

[esper]

cihimi wrote...

Why bomb the chantry with defenseless people in it? Why not go directly to the Templar HQ and bomb Meredith and the rest of the Kirkwall Order? Too much work compared to entering the chantry, pretending to pray or something and plant your magic IED?

Anders even had the gall to tell Hawke that his death will serve as inspiration? Hardly. Inspiration for what? Most probabaly inspiration to not let spirits own you. Anders had an idea. He just never thought about it thoroughly. Or maybe he did. He just wasn't that bright to begin with.

To answer your first question. Because the Chantry is the root of the problem not the templars (they are only the symptom). If Anders had bombed the chantry he would be just yet another mage who attacked yet another templar - nothing would have changed. By attacking the Chantry Anders shook the whole system and tricked Meridith to annull the circle for a crime they hadn't commintted which showed all the circles elsewhere that submitting to the templars wasn't more secure because they could still be randomly killed for an act which they had nothing to do with. It was not about the Kirkwall Circle, it was not about Meridith, it was not about Elthina. It was about the system which Anders suceeded in shaking by attacking the symbol and not just the just the lunatic templar. 

Modifié par esper, 10 novembre 2011 - 07:56 .

[Herr Uhl]

esper wrote...

cihimi wrote...

Why bomb the chantry with defenseless people in it? Why not go directly to the Templar HQ and bomb Meredith and the rest of the Kirkwall Order? Too much work compared to entering the chantry, pretending to pray or something and plant your magic IED?

Anders even had the gall to tell Hawke that his death will serve as inspiration? Hardly. Inspiration for what? Most probabaly inspiration to not let spirits own you. Anders had an idea. He just never thought about it thoroughly. Or maybe he did. He just wasn't that bright to begin with.

To answer your first question. Because the Chantry is the root of the problem not the templars (they are only the symptom). If Anders had bombed the chantry he would be just yet another mage who attacked yet another templar - nothing would have changed. By attacking the Chantry Anders shook the whole system and tricked Meridith to annull the circle for a crime they hadn't commintted which showed all the circles elsewhere that submitting to the templars wasn't more secure because they could still be randomly killed for an act which they had nothing to do with. It was not about the Kirkwall Circle, it was not about Meridith, it was not about Elthina. It was about the system which Anders suceeded in shaking by attacking the symbol and not just the just the lunatic templar. 

...no.

[Gervaise]

Sorry for the multiple post, but I thought I would add that Anders increasingly only sees one path that he can follow. It is all planned out, even to the extent that he doesn't expect to live - hence his surprise if you spare him. The portion plot says it all. Collect the ingredients, mix them together and the boom, Justice and I are free. When he tells Hawke that they won't like the last part, I'm not entirely sure that he means the bomb alone but the fact that Hawke will then feel obliged to execute him, thus freeing him of Justice.

My problem with letting him live was that he had become so eratic and unreliable, I couldn't trust him not to do something equally reckless in the future that might harm the cause of the mages. He was quiet and chastened in the aftermath of the bomb, but how long would that last? Since by his own admission Justice and he could only be separated by death and their relationship had been increasingly bad for both of them, in some ways the best a friend could do for him was to end it swiftly. (I could never bring myself to romance him).

[esper]

Herr Uhl wrote...

esper wrote...

cihimi wrote...

Why bomb the chantry with defenseless people in it? Why not go directly to the Templar HQ and bomb Meredith and the rest of the Kirkwall Order? Too much work compared to entering the chantry, pretending to pray or something and plant your magic IED?

Anders even had the gall to tell Hawke that his death will serve as inspiration? Hardly. Inspiration for what? Most probabaly inspiration to not let spirits own you. Anders had an idea. He just never thought about it thoroughly. Or maybe he did. He just wasn't that bright to begin with.

To answer your first question. Because the Chantry is the root of the problem not the templars (they are only the symptom). If Anders had bombed the chantry he would be just yet another mage who attacked yet another templar - nothing would have changed. By attacking the Chantry Anders shook the whole system and tricked Meridith to annull the circle for a crime they hadn't commintted which showed all the circles elsewhere that submitting to the templars wasn't more secure because they could still be randomly killed for an act which they had nothing to do with. It was not about the Kirkwall Circle, it was not about Meridith, it was not about Elthina. It was about the system which Anders suceeded in shaking by attacking the symbol and not just the just the lunatic templar. 

...no.

She was going to annul it anyway, but if she had gained permisson from the Divine or Elthina, nobody would have questioned her. But becasue Elthina is removed and Anders is not a part of the Circle which everyone involved in Kirkwall knows, Meridiths act of annulling the circle suddenly becomes questionable.  I hope it made it a little clearer about what I meant with tricked. (Not the best words to use, but I don't know how else to describe it).

[Killjoy Cutter]

Tricking your enemy into murdering hundreds of your fellows, most of them innocents, for "political impact" falls squarely into the realm of terrorism. See also, what Anders did.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 10 novembre 2011 - 08:54 .

[Leon481]

Anders said he did it to help mages, but really he was just doing it to make himself feel better. The obsession was consuming him nearly to the point of madness. He was desperate to do anything, so he picked the easiest target, told himself it would make a difference, and then attacked. He just wanted to calm his obsession then die while his obsession was still calmed. Even if he told himself he was doing it for others, it was a completely selfish action. It's easy to forget that because by pure luck his actions did end up making a difference. It was a fluke because there was no way he could have known events would line up so well.

He wasn't a terrorist or a freedom fighter, he was just a delusional man with a bomb.

Modifié par Leon481, 10 novembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[esper]

edited, because I was being unjustely rude to some of you.

I pretty much agree with the title of the thread. Anders is a freedom fighter to me, that some you sees him differently is not something I can do anything about, nor do I wish to.

Modifié par esper, 10 novembre 2011 - 10:20 .

[The Baconer]

cihimi wrote...

Why bomb the chantry with defenseless people in it? Why not go directly to the Templar HQ and bomb Meredith and the rest of the Kirkwall Order? Too much work compared to entering the chantry, pretending to pray or something and plant your magic IED?

Anders even had the gall to tell Hawke that his death will serve as inspiration? Hardly. Inspiration for what? Most probabaly inspiration to not let spirits own you. Anders had an idea. He just never thought about it thoroughly. Or maybe he did. He just wasn't that bright to begin with.

This just about sums it up.

[ReallyRue]

Interesting article.

One point in particular that was interesting, and very true for me, was the gradual knowledge that there was no way to turn Anders/Justice back to their former selves, and that they just seemed to be on a continuous downward spiral.

Until the end, where I have to stabbity, eight times out of ten.

[Vit246]

It is not terrorism to attack a legitimate target and only the legitimate target.

The chantry is not innocent or neutral or defenseless and neither is the Kirkwall Chantry. As far as the game ever tells us, it has nothing but templars and clergy. Neither of those groups are "innocent". Remember that it exploded at night and the chantry is closed to the public at night. No civilians were in there. As for any "collateral damage", I don't know about you, but the blast radius pretty much looks entirely focused on the chantry building itself and then the explosion cleanly blew away any wreckage away from the entire city. If there was damage, that's unfortunate, but that was never Anders's intention. And it's also a fact of war. A war that's been boiling and going on for a 1000 years ever since the Chantry with its personal Templar army has been ruling the Circles. 

Saying that Anders should've killed Meredith instead of Elthina means you understand nothing about the Chantry hierarchy or what Anders was trying to accomplish and why he did it. A templar like Meredith can be expected to die in the line of duty. She would've simply been replaced by another templar and destroying the Kirkwall Templar HQ would've meant killing the Circle mages as well. Elthina is the Grand Cleric and boss of Meredith. She can exercise command over Meredith and the Templars except she chooses not to. Under the status quo for 1000 years, mages have no rights and are practically oppressed and killed for being born mages by the Chantry and their Templar military arm.

In Kirkwall, the existing presence of Elthina may have been keeping Meredith from just Annulling the Circle for any reason, but under Meredith's methods, mages are still abused, raped, Tranquiled, killed and oppressed arbitrarily. The mages can either "accept" the current status quo or fight back, but the first option is still there only because Elthina is still around and choosing to do nothing at all about the situation as Grand Cleric. Anders's plan was this: remove Elthina and allow Meredith to do what she wants, and force the the Circle to finally fight back and free itself from the Chantry and Templars. Failing and being killed would be no different than being under the current status quo.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 novembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[Eudaemonium]

Excellent article! I always like to read analyses of DA2 characters, and you did it well!

[Malanek]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Anders' bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry was an act of senseless murder that did nothing to advance the cause of mages.

We are told at the end of the game that the other circles across Thedas took it as a sign to rise up against the Chantry. It was symbolic and the hints are it triggered a revolution of some sort. I don't believe the game is clear on how many people are supposed to die in the explosion but there were at least some people who were innocent at least to the degree of not personally persecuting the mages.

The more well known character that is compareable is V from V for Vendetta. Of course in the end, despite setting it all up, he lets Evie decide whether or not to go through with it. 

[Asdara]

While I do play my mages as shining examples of how we can manage ourselves if given a chance... I have to acknowledge I am working within a system that is broken and stacked against me in that regard. I am trying to live up to a set of standards that someone else will find acceptable and admirable.

At some point, when a system is so broken that it is actually creating the problem it is intended to solve (like run away mages and abominations springing up in desperation of being recaptured and killed) an action has to happen that doesn't attempt to fix the system, but actually tear it down and build something entirely different. This is often done in a haphazard way and an act of terrorism such as blowing something up isn't an entirely invalid beginning.

Think V for Vendetta - if you've seen the movie, as you are watching it, the typical reaction is to cheer for the building that goes boom - the last one at least. Which... isn't really fixing anything either - but it is symbolic and it does call attention to a thing that is broken and does accomplish the kick off of what will be (we hope) the problem solving actions.

I'm not saying I'm keen on Ander's choice, but I have a hard time missing the validity of it in the context of the game and the situation. Does it fix the problem? No, but it isn't meant to. It's meant to push the situation over the edge its been teetering on and force the issue to an open conflict, and it does that.

[Fallstar]

 Your viewpoint on Anders' act is always going to depend on whether you think the ends justify the means. 

The result: A large conflict across Thedas that has the potential to eradicate what is essentially a form of slavery. How many people were in that chantry? Perhaps two dozen. Were their lives worth those of the hundreds, eventually thousands of mages who could be spared being made tranquil? You have only to have played the quest with Karl, who begged to die rather than return to a tranquil state, to see what kind of torture this is for mages. So its a balancing act: are the lives lost as a result of Anders destroying the chantry worth the pain and suffering of a vastly larger number of mages in the future? As well as the mages who are wrongly executed by Templars. 

Personally I think it was worth it. But this is an entirely subjective matter that comes down to personal opinion on whether or not it is morally justifiable to sacrifice a few to save many more.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 11 novembre 2011 - 02:15 .

[General User]

DuskWarden wrote...

 Your viewpoint on Anders' act is always going to depend on whether you think the ends justify the means. 

The result: A large conflict across Thedas that has the potential to eradicate what is essentially a form of slavery. How many people were in that chantry? Perhaps two dozen. Were their lives worth those of the hundreds, eventually thousands of mages who could be spared being made tranquil? You have only to have played the quest with Karl, who begged to die rather than return to a tranquil state, to see what kind of torture this is for mages. So its a balancing act: are the lives lost as a result of Anders destroying the chantry worth the pain and suffering of a vastly larger number of mages in the future? As well as the mages who are wrongly executed by Templars. 

Personally I think it was worth it. But this is an entirely subjective matter that comes down to personal opinion on whether or not it is morally justifiable to sacrifice a few to save many more.

Didn't Cassandra ask, "Do you have any idea how many have died?  How many may still die?"

What Anders did will bring violence, war, hatred, and death not just to mages, but to all of Thedas.