288 réponses à ce sujet

[heiveldboy]

KJandrew wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Can pro-mage and pro-templar not just admit that both sides have flaws and you're not going to change each others minds and just stop arguing about it?

If we did that, there'd be pretty much nothing left to discuss. None of the other issues in DA2 are nearly this interesting.

But by now it's not a discussion it's just a stating and re-hashing the same old points over and over again. 

And the pro-mages and pro-templars see things in a completely different perspective... when the pro-mage sees a 6 the pro-templar sees a 9. I wonder what would happen if they both starting thinking in the same way and with the same intent and reasons... now that would be an interesting debate...

Besides after discussing things for so long neither is willing to give in and confess the other is right...

[Killjoy Cutter]

Neither of the absolutist sides is correct.

[AlexXIV]

heiveldboy wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Can pro-mage and pro-templar not just admit that both sides have flaws and you're not going to change each others minds and just stop arguing about it?

If we did that, there'd be pretty much nothing left to discuss. None of the other issues in DA2 are nearly this interesting.

But by now it's not a discussion it's just a stating and re-hashing the same old points over and over again. 

And the pro-mages and pro-templars see things in a completely different perspective... when the pro-mage sees a 6 the pro-templar sees a 9. I wonder what would happen if they both starting thinking in the same way and with the same intent and reasons... now that would be an interesting debate...

Besides after discussing things for so long neither is willing to give in and confess the other is right...

You can't discuss with people unwilling to learn. Some people have preset opinions and don't come here to discuss, they come to preach, or 'teach'. And some obviously see it as a personal defeat if they agree with a point contrary to their own.

[Plaintiff]

AlexXIV wrote...

heiveldboy wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Can pro-mage and pro-templar not just admit that both sides have flaws and you're not going to change each others minds and just stop arguing about it?

If we did that, there'd be pretty much nothing left to discuss. None of the other issues in DA2 are nearly this interesting.

But by now it's not a discussion it's just a stating and re-hashing the same old points over and over again. 

And the pro-mages and pro-templars see things in a completely different perspective... when the pro-mage sees a 6 the pro-templar sees a 9. I wonder what would happen if they both starting thinking in the same way and with the same intent and reasons... now that would be an interesting debate...

Besides after discussing things for so long neither is willing to give in and confess the other is right...

You can't discuss with people unwilling to learn. Some people have preset opinions and don't come here to discuss, they come to preach, or 'teach'. And some obviously see it as a personal defeat if they agree with a point contrary to their own.

They're still less annoying than the posters who take it on themseles to play mother hen and lecture everyone indiscriminately.

[LinksOcarina]

Actually, Plaintiff, the point of the article was a sort of lecture to begin with...because it was telling you an interpretation of the situation that few may know or care about, and presenting evidence as to why it's valid...

[Carmen_Willow]

Vit246 wrote...

It is not terrorism to attack a legitimate target and only the legitimate target.

The chantry is not innocent or neutral or defenseless and neither is the Kirkwall Chantry. As far as the game ever tells us, it has nothing but templars and clergy. Neither of those groups are "innocent". Remember that it exploded at night and the chantry is closed to the public at night. No civilians were in there. As for any "collateral damage", I don't know about you, but the blast radius pretty much looks entirely focused on the chantry building itself and then the explosion cleanly blew away any wreckage away from the entire city. If there was damage, that's unfortunate, but that was never Anders's intention. And it's also a fact of war. A war that's been boiling and going on for a 1000 years ever since the Chantry with its personal Templar army has been ruling the Circles. 

Excuse me, but if you watch the cutscene, particularly the very end of it, you will know that the explosion radiated outward in a large blast radius (look at the very last blast, folks).  I would laugh every time someone says that it only affect the Chantry because I know that's not true, but it's just too darned serious. 

What you don't get it that there is something called the "concussion blast." Many People in the blast radius die because their insides are turned to jelly from the concussion blast!! Your brain is rocked back and forth in your skull rapidly during that concussion. Look at how close the other buildings are to the Chantry.
 
Ask the people who were downtown in OK City what it was like that morning! There were other injuries in other buildings.  Ask the people of Kansas City about the Firefighter Explosion and how far away that blast was felt!! You would be amazed at how far away that blast was felt!  Not just heard,felt!  You have know idea until you've lived through something like that how powerful it is.

The idea that no one was hurt outside the Chantry is ludicrous.  It's wishful thinking on the part of those of who think it's okay to bomb one and all in the name of a cause. If you are going to support what he did, then you have to own up to the probable consequences of the action he took!! He's a terrorist.  He's Kirkwall's version of the Unibomber! And he deserves the Justice he got which was summary execution!

[Edited for typo and a content edit]

Modifié par Carmen_Willow, 26 novembre 2011 - 06:47 .

[DKJaigen]

[quote]Carmen_Willow wrote...


Excuse me, but if you watch the cutscene, particularly the very end of it, you will know that the explosion radiated outward in a large blast radius (look at the very last blast, folks).  I would laugh every time someone says that it only affect the Chantry because I know that's not true, but it's just too darned serious.  [/quote]

I see it and i see that the blast moved much of the debris right out of the city. structual damage in lowtown seems to be pretty low as well.

[quote]
What you don't get it that there is something called the "concussion blast." Many People in the blast radius die because their insides are turned to jelly from the concussion blast!! Your brain is rocked back and forth in your skull rapidly during that concussion. Look at how close the other buildings are to the Chantry. [/quote]

The concussive blast was not in the city itself but above it. most likely no one was hurt because of that.
 
[quote]
The idea that no one was hurt outside the Chantry is ludicrous.  It's wishful thinking on the part of those of who think it's okay to bomb one and all in the name of a cause. If you are going to support what he did, then you have to own up to the probable consequences of the action he took!! He's a terrorist.  He's Kirkwall's version of the Unibomber! And he deserves the Justice he got which was summary execution! [/quote]

If you say so, and your entiteld to your own opinion but i dont see it that way.

[/quote]

[Realmzmaster]

Concussion blast is a concern. The blast changes the atmospheric pressure in the surrounding area. The blast effects go all around not just up. Anyone caught in the area of the blast will be affected. Many brain injuries can occur this way and have no visible signs. Many bombs are exploded above their target not on it when the bomb reaches a certain height.

So it is quite possible for Anders blowing up of the Chantry to have this effect. Also debris from the blast does go outward. The point is how far does the blast propels the debris. If it is outside of the city proper then you will see minimum affect on the city.

But there is a possibility that Anders affected more people than just those in the Chantry. The game does not give that information.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't think the fires erupting in Hightown immediately after the explosion was a result of spontaneous combustion....

[Carmen_Willow]

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...

[quote]Carmen_Willow wrote...


Excuse me, but if you watch the cutscene, particularly the very end of it, you will know that the explosion radiated outward in a large blast radius (look at the very last blast, folks).  I would laugh every time someone says that it only affect the Chantry because I know that's not true, but it's just too darned serious.  [/quote]

I see it and i see that the blast moved much of the debris right out of the city. structual damage in lowtown seems to be pretty low as well.

[quote]
What you don't get it that there is something called the "concussion blast." Many People in the blast radius die because their insides are turned to jelly from the concussion blast!! Your brain is rocked back and forth in your skull rapidly during that concussion. Look at how close the other buildings are to the Chantry. [/quote]

The concussive blast was not in the city itself but above it. most likely no one was hurt because of that.
 
[quote]
The idea that no one was hurt outside the Chantry is ludicrous.  It's wishful thinking on the part of those of who think it's okay to bomb one and all in the name of a cause. If you are going to support what he did, then you have to own up to the probable consequences of the action he took!! He's a terrorist.  He's Kirkwall's version of the Unibomber! And he deserves the Justice he got which was summary execution! [/quote]

If you say so, and your entiteld to your own opinion but i dont see it that way.

[/quote]
[/quote]

So, in your view,  no one got hurt on the ground and that makes it ok.  I see. I don't see it your way, so we can agree to disagree.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Given the broken and burning buildings we see in hightown following the explosion, there is no reasonable way to conclude that damage, deaths, and injuries were restricted to the Chantry itself.

[TanyaT]

"Anders is a terrorist" ?
there is much discussion (in the real world too!) how sometimes the only way to get a problem noticed and taken seriously is to resort to violence

sometimes these things move slowly but problems are recognised.

well today, Anders shakes hands with the Grand Cleric see here and here


(I like to speculate that Anders would have been able to sit down and share bad jokes with Meredith, à la McGuinness and Paisley "Chuckle brothers" but she went really nuts, and though I think "Dr" Ian Paisley was nuts - I am sure he ate kittens -he was nowhere near lyrium nuts)

[EricHVela]

EDIT2: For the sake of keeping the discussion going, let's try to assume that Varric was telling a reasonably accurate truth (or else there is no point in the discussion).

What was Anders' real intent? Was it really to achieve "freedom or death" for the mages?

I have serious doubts that his primary intentions were to break the stalemate. I think he merely tried to rationalize his actions with such "honorable" excuses.

He embodies vengeance. (Vengeance cannot be defined without the word revenge or without the same definition as revenge included.)

Is revenge a proper motive for such violence?

I think that was Anders' primary motive.

Do the means justify his own personal, self-serving goals?

Could he have found another way (if his mind hadn't been stuck in a vengeance blood-haze)?

The question is: How necessary was it to do exactly what he did?

(EDIT: I find it interesting how I've used "justify", "revenge" and "necessary" in this response. People seem to often confuse the concepts of Justice, Revenge and Necessity to be the others.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 27 juin 2012 - 02:01 .

[LinksOcarina]

ReggarBlane wrote...

EDIT2: For the sake of keeping the discussion going, let's try to assume that Varric was telling a reasonably accurate truth (or else there is no point in the discussion).

What was Anders' real intent? Was it really to achieve "freedom or death" for the mages?

I have serious doubts that his primary intentions were to break the stalemate. I think he merely tried to rationalize his actions with such "honorable" excuses.

He embodies vengeance. (Vengeance cannot be defined without the word revenge or without the same definition as revenge included.)

Is revenge a proper motive for such violence?

I think that was Anders' primary motive.

Do the means justify his own personal, self-serving goals?

Could he have found another way (if his mind hadn't been stuck in a vengeance blood-haze)?

The question is: How necessary was it to do exactly what he did?

(EDIT: I find it interesting how I've used "justify", "revenge" and "necessary" in this response. People seem to often confuse the concepts of Justice, Revenge and Necessity to be the others.)

I don't know. This is what makes the decision to let him live or die interesting. In the real world its no excuse, and the true justice is for him to pay for his crimes, be it killing him or atonement through imprisonment and so forth. 

So is revenge a good motive? No. But I have a feeling revenge is not the only thing in play here, because if it was then Anders would have gone after those who wronged him. You can argue that the chantry wronged him I guess, but that might be stretching it. Why not go after the circle, or Meredith. Why not assassinate her while he was standing there.

What makes this different is the spectacle. He blew up a church to make a point, and did so in front of everyone. That either makes him a very showboaty seeker of vengance, or he is doing it for the attention of everyone for his goals.

I guess it could be seen either way, for my money though I think the revenge he was looking for was an all-encompassing one wrapped, in his view, as a noble goal.