288 réponses à ce sujet

[Gabey5]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders' bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry was an act of senseless murder that did nothing to advance the cause of mages.

it did, the mages rebellewd all over thedas, the templars have rebelled as well. the chantry is in shambles.  the bombing did what it was supposed to do 

[General User]

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

Modifié par General User, 11 novembre 2011 - 11:40 .

[Tryynity]

One thing I really like about both games - Origin & DA2 is you have to think and choose a side.

"What has been will be again, 
   what has been done will be done again; 
   there is nothing new under the sun."

- we are really reflecting upon real life issues and our stance.

Whereas I firmly support the freedom of choice - sometimes for our own good choice needs to be restrained and controlled.

Mages are a risk - they prove this over and over.  No one is immune to temptation (even Fenris - grrrr - I thought he would have been.)

Templars are needed but they are not exempt from evil either - just coz they walk around in shiny armour and confess "hail andraste full of grace" 10 thousand times a day. 

There is not wrong or right answer  I think - not even a better one - which I find really interesting.

No loss of innocent life is always the best - but how does one achieve that in war.  Mages/Templars is an ongoing war and will never cease unless magic was removed entirely.  Templars would not be required.  Remove the taint we no longer need Grey Wardens.

We have this in life also.  I support Anders to oppose evil/wrongdoing, on one hand - yes you could say he is a freedom fighter - to what cause though... free the ppl so they can then turn around and become the oppressor the cycle continues until that side rises up.  As long as the "world power" remains at least on the side of relatively good (there is no perfect), ultimately governed by love for the general good of humankind.

I have not yet met a man/women who can govern themselves correctly so to expect this of entire society is futile.  My father came close but that is a generation lost now.  Sad but true.

/opinion off

Modifié par Tryynity, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:15 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Gabey5 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders' bombing of the Kirkwall Chantry was an act of senseless murder that did nothing to advance the cause of mages.

it did, the mages rebellewd all over thedas, the templars have rebelled as well. the chantry is in shambles.  the bombing did what it was supposed to do 

And yet it accomplished nothing for mages. 

[Ryzaki]

Well they're out of the circles so it achieved something.

Whether that's better or worse remains to be seen.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

It's impossible to stop it without fighting it in this case.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well they're out of the circles so it achieved something.

Whether that's better or worse remains to be seen.

The ones who aren't dead, and haven't been tranquiled by Templars who agreed with Alrik's ideas but were never free to act on those ideas until the war, and... 

[Killjoy Cutter]

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:57 .

[Xilizhra]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

The templars are incapable of compromise, and the Chantry is little better. I seriously doubt peaceful solutions were options.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Xilizhra wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

The templars are incapable of compromise, and the Chantry is little better. I seriously doubt peaceful solutions were options.

Until he was killed -- by a mage -- Thrask was actively working for a peaceful, compromise solution. 

[Xilizhra]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

The templars are incapable of compromise, and the Chantry is little better. I seriously doubt peaceful solutions were options.

Until he was killed -- by a mage -- Thrask was actively working for a peaceful, compromise solution. 

He was also a rogue and would have been killed or arrested by Cullen. He's far from typical.
Also, he was more killed by a demon. Notice the abomination in that fight: Grace was possessed.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

It's impossible to stop it without fighting it in this case.

I agree completely.  (With that statement, as it was stated)

Modifié par General User, 12 novembre 2011 - 04:56 .

[General User]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

General User wrote...

The Chantry bombing was Anders' way of showing the world that he would rather fight injustice than stop injustice.

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

Indeed.

[Vit246]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

Violence was the only solution left. A non-violent protest would only get the mages ignored or Tranquiled for their trouble. Just like Karl.

The Chantry has no interest in compromise. Doing so would weaken their power, and what powerful organization would willingly do that for a race that they declare as less than human, as an eternal evil curse? Elthina was never working for compromise, she just did not want to do anything at all. The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed When the Pope-equivalent of the most powerful religious institution is deciding something like that, there is no hope of compromise.

Modifié par Vit246, 12 novembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vit246 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

In other words, he wasn't interested in solving the issues at hand, he was interested in fighting.

Violence was the only solution left. A non-violent protest would only get the mages ignored or Tranquiled for their trouble. Just like Karl.

The Chantry has no interest in compromise. Doing so would weaken their power, and what powerful organization would willingly do that for a race that they declare as less than human, as an eternal evil curse? Elthina was never working for compromise, she just did not want to do anything at all. The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed When the Pope-equivalent of the most powerful religious institution is deciding something like that, there is no hope of compromise.

Whatever.

[KJandrew]

Vit246 wrote...

 The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed

No the Divine was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because of the huge number of blood mages and abomonations in the city, who are runnign rampant around the streets half the time. The First Enchanter is in the streets trying to encite rebellion against the Chantry. And in the some cases there is a mage in one of most powerful positions in the city.
Do you think that someone would be concerned at least a little in that situation.

Modifié par KJandrew, 12 novembre 2011 - 08:03 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

I didn't write that line you quoted.

[KJandrew]

Sorry, it was a mix up with the quoting thing, its been changed

[Big I]

Anders is a monster. He let himself be possessed by a spirit and it drove him to become a senseless murderer. The Chantry is not a legitimate target, because not all members of the Chantry are mage oppressing bigots. Lily from DA:O (and potentially Leliana and Sebastian) fell in love with a mage. Elthina supports Orsino's right to protest against Meredith when she could have assented to having him imprisoned or worse.


More broadly, the Chantry and most of it's members help society. Brother Burkel in Orzammar does his best to help the casteless. Most academics like Genitivi or Sister Petrine from the codex entries are Chantry educated. The Chantry takes in dispossessed people like the Hariman's elven servant or Orana and helps them. Most of what the Chantry does is good.


The problem is not the Chantry. The problem is the templar order, which as the Inquistion was established independently of the Chantry before incorporating into it. If Anders had attacked the templar barracks and killed Meredith he would have been more justified, although even then you're ignoring templars like Keran, Thrask, and Cullen. As it was he deliberately chose to murder innocent non-combatants in order to start a war.


Anders is one of the elements of DA2 I had the most problem with. Firstly because they took two characters I liked in Awakening and turned them into one character I loathed in DA2. Secondly because of the perverse incentives between gameplay and roleplaying in the Final Straw. Even if you hate Anders and what he did, you're likely to spare him if playing on Nightmare because he's the healer.

[Tryynity]

I actually finished my first playthrough of this last night - and an interesting question came up...

Was the Chantry REALLY innocent? The Chantry is the controlling force behind the Templars or more importantly Meredith. She only got told to go to her room once - with sufficient evidence
I would have stripped her of her rank and power.

The reverand mother/boss lady whatever had a responsiblity to keep Meredith in line and failed... leaving it up to her god "The Maker" blah blah blah - The Maker helps those who help themselves. Andraste got invovled and did her bit to change things but Elfina sat in her little ivory tower and said ho hum lets just see what happens.

NO NO NO - I disagree with her attitude. She was the advocate of the Maker's Will in Kirkwell ie keep Meredith in line from becoming a zealot - keep the Templars in line etc

Avelene was the Captain of the guard - the Viscount her superior.  Jevan was corrupt and removed - same scenario

I was fully going to support the Templars I believe in what they do in Thedas - but when I saw that Meredith was insane - I sided with the mages (actually I lie I first said Im not choosing sides and i got royally told I had to  ) Im a lets work this out kinda gal lol (tried the same tactic with the Arishok LOL)

- then I found out they were not as innocent as they claimed.

To be truthfull I wish there was the option for the Arishok to take over Kirkwall - I think I prefer their viewpoint in so many ways - I agreed for the most part with the Leader guy plus I think he liked me too

Modifié par Tryynity, 13 novembre 2011 - 12:05 .

[SgtElias]

KJandrew wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

 The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed

The First Enchanter is in the streets trying to encite rebellion against the Chantry . . .

. . . wait, what?

The First Enchanter was in the streets complaining about Meredith and her overt grab for power, which had gone on for so long and gotten so epic that he (and most of the Circle, I assume) had had enough. By the third act, Meredith (or the templars as an order, take your pick) were looking for some way to oust Aveline from her post as Guard-Captain, even though she was generally reguarded by both her men and the general public to be extremely competant at her job. Considering everything that had already happened under Meredith's "rule," I'm surprised Orsino wasn't swinging from the chandeliers, crying out for revolution. One soft word from Elthina and he allowed himself to be escorted back to the Tower; this does not to me sound like a man who is inciting a rebellion against anything other than Meredith.

But back on topic, as to whether Anders is a freedom-fighter or a terrorist . . . well, he's probably my favorite character in all of Dragon Age, and probably always will be, so I don't argue that this will always colour my view of him.

Honestly, I wish he'd chosen a different target. Choosing to kill the Grand Cleric (who, in the public's view, had been trying to find a peaceful resolution for years) only makes him seem like a terrorist; so I don't deny that he's sort of earned the stigma for that one. However, I don't think a peaceful solution was even possible anymore; every attmept seen in-game to try and reach a compromise, or to give mages more freedom, was either met with a flat-out refusal by the Chantry or a violent conflict.

Anyway, my vote is Freedom Fighter. Incredibly romantic, bi-polar, semi-suicidal, sexy freedom fighter. With poor judgement. And great hair.

Modifié par SgtElias, 13 novembre 2011 - 12:05 .

[General User]

The dim prospects for an ultimately peaceful resolution to 'the Mage Question' does not give license to every lunatic with a bomb to burn, kill, and destroy as he sees fit.

Modifié par General User, 13 novembre 2011 - 01:21 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Anders is a terrorist who'd happily see the entire world burned down to satisfy his self centered view of it. He had noble intentions but the greatest atrocities are often inspired by noble ideals. I disagree that the coming war was inevitable, the deteriorating situation in Kirkwall was the result of the actions of several specific individuals that could have been avoided. The root of the inability to compromise was Anders himself. He refused to consider anything other than violent insurrection and by the end of the game he obviously doesn't care how many innocent people he'd need to sacrifice to his cause. He spelled it out clearly after he blew up the Chantry when he said "I removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise." He was obviously concerned that the Chantry and mages would work out a peaceful solution and that would have been unacceptable to him. Meredith's insanity would have been a problem but that hardly translates to the rest of the templars and the Chantry. And despite that by the end even she seemed nominally more interested in negotiating than Anders did. She was the root of a large part of the problem. Even Thrask said without her things were very different.

Anders moral compass appears to have been warped beyond reason by his possession by Vengeance. He sees almost any situation through the eyes of the "mages must be free" lens. He only finds Fenris threatening his sister objectionable after he learns she's a mage. He'd rather assist corpse raising blood mages by murdering the one templar who risked his life to save them. And the incalculable amount of people who die in the war that he decided for them that they must be a part of clearly would be worth it in his eyes as long as he gets what he wants. He may have tried to be a good man once but he's as much of a self righteous zealot as the worse templars. The main difference is their murderous fanaticism is more about protecting the majority of the population from an oppressed but potentially dangerous minority. Anders goal was to force a great deal of deaths so that an oppressed minority may possibly free themselves but also endanger themselves and the rest of the population. Or perthaps he's just put them in a situation where they'll be annahilated completely. Given the amount of people that will die on both sides and those caught in between, that method has far too great a cost even if free mages were perfectly safe.

He's truly an abomination in every sense of the word.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2011 - 01:38 .

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry