288 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Anders is a terrorist who'd happily see the entire world burned down to satisfy his self centered view of it. He had noble intentions but the greatest atrocities are often inspired by noble ideals. I disagree that the coming war was inevitable,

The fact remains that all circles rebelled. so if not anders then something else. but discontentment had already reached critical levels before anders.

the deteriorating situation in Kirkwall was the result of the actions of several specific individuals that could have been avoided. The root of the inability to compromise was Anders himself. He refused to consider anything other than violent insurrection and by the end of the game he obviously doesn't care how many innocent people he'd need to sacrifice to his cause.

Oh he does care. no idea why you think otherwise

He spelled it out clearly after he blew up the Chantry when he said "I removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise." He was obviously concerned that the Chantry and mages would work out a peaceful solution and that would have been unacceptable to him. Meredith's insanity would have been a problem but that hardly translates to the rest of the templars and the Chantry. And despite that by the end even she seemed nominally more interested in negotiating than Anders did. She was the root of a large part of the problem. Even Thrask said without her things were very different.

The chantry would only support the status quo and they have all the power. So thats why he says their is no compromise.

Anders moral compass appears to have been warped beyond reason by his possession by Vengeance. He sees almost any situation through the eyes of the "mages must be free" lens. He only finds Fenris threatening his sister objectionable after he learns she's a mage. He'd rather assist corpse raising blood mages by murdering the one templar who risked his life to save them.

Its true he does sees thing a bit black and white. still far better then what fenris does.

And the incalculable amount of people who die in the war that he decided for them that they must be a part of clearly would be worth it in his eyes as long as he gets what he wants. He may have tried to be a good man once but he's as much of a self righteous zealot as the worse templars.

Fire can only be fought with fire. And if a large amount of people needs to die so be it. As long thedas improves

The main difference is their murderous fanaticism is more about protecting the majority of the population from an oppressed but potentially dangerous minority. Anders goal was to force a great deal of deaths so that an oppressed minority may possibly free themselves but also endanger themselves and the rest of the population.

I dont care. The majority was stupid enough to support the chantry. Time for a lesson and let them learn from their mistakes

Or perthaps he's just put them in a situation where they'll be annahilated completely. Given the amount of people that will die on both sides and those caught in between, that method has far too great a cost even if free mages were perfectly safe.

Overreacting much?

He's truly an abomination in every sense of the word.

[General User]

DKJaigen wrote...
Which is [the enemy forces are] the chantry

Even if that were true (and it isn't) that's not Anders' call to make.  Individual persons do not get to wage their own personal wars against society no matter how just they think their cause might be.

DKJaigen wrote...
Fire can only be fought with fire.

No, fire can be fought with water too.  Actually, there are a lot of ways to fight a fire.

DKJaigen wrote...
Overreacting much?

The irony of this question coming from someone who, in the same post made the statements: "if a large amount of people needs to die so be it" and "The majority was stupid enough to support the chantry. Time for a lesson and let them learn from their mistakes", is just too good to let pass without noting.

[Xilizhra]

Even if that were true (and it isn't) that's not Anders' call to make. Individual persons do not get to wage their own personal wars against society no matter how just they think their cause might be.

How fortunate that Anders started no war, only blew up a building. Meredith chose to murder the Circle, and the other Circles chose to rebel.

No, fire can be fought with water too. Actually, there are a lot of ways to fight a fire.

Some fires are by far best fought with fire, like large forest fires (starting strategically positioned smaller fires will steal oxygen from the main fire).

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Even if that were true (and it isn't) that's not Anders' call to make. Individual persons do not get to wage their own personal wars against society no matter how just they think their cause might be.

How fortunate that Anders started no war, only blew up a building. Meredith chose to murder the Circle, and the other Circles chose to rebel.

Didn't say 'started', said 'wage.'

Xilizhra wrote...

No, fire can be fought with water too. Actually, there are a lot of ways to fight a fire.

Some fires are by far best fought with fire, like large forest fires (starting strategically positioned smaller fires will steal oxygen from the main fire).

Innovative landscaping at the homeowner level and preventative burns at the forestry service level are also proven effective.  Pouring pouring endless gallons of petrol onto a fire that's already getting out of hand however, is seldolm considered wise for anyone to do.

[Xilizhra]

Didn't say 'started', said 'wage.'

You can't wage a war that doesn't exist at that moment.

Innovative landscaping at the homeowner level and preventative burns at the forestry service level are also proven effective. Pouring pouring endless gallons of petrol onto a fire that's already getting out of hand however, is seldolm considered wise for anyone to do.

If Anders was doing that, he'd be joining the templars in beating down on the Circle; that's the fire. His bomb is a totally new one, meant to combat the first fire.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Didn't say 'started', said 'wage.'

You can't wage a war that doesn't exist at that moment.

In Anders' mind, mages and Templars have been at war for some time.

Xilizhra wrote...

Innovative landscaping at the homeowner level and preventative burns at the forestry service level are also proven effective. Pouring pouring endless gallons of petrol onto a fire that's already getting out of hand however, is seldolm considered wise for anyone to do.

If Anders was doing that, he'd be joining the templars in beating down on the Circle; that's the fire. His bomb is a totally new one, meant to combat the first fire.

Anders' self-professed reason for the Chantry bombing was to remove the possibility of compromise.  That's how he saw his act or terrorism: as a the catalyst necessary to bring the current, ongoing mage-Templar conflict to a head.  Very much in the same "continuum-of-conflict."

[Xilizhra]

In Anders' mind, mages and Templars have been at war for some time.

More a state of tyranny.

Anders' self-professed reason for the Chantry bombing was to remove the possibility of compromise. That's how he saw his act or terrorism: as a the catalyst necessary to bring the current, ongoing mage-Templar conflict to a head. Very much in the same "continuum-of-conflict."

"Compromise" is synonymous, in this case, with an end to possible hot hostilities but continuing oppression. The Chantry would never seek a fair balance with the mages, it'd mean giving up power.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

KJandrew wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

 The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed

No the Divine was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because of the huge number of blood mages and abomonations in the city, who are runnign rampant around the streets half the time. The First Enchanter is in the streets trying to encite rebellion against the Chantry. And in the some cases there is a mage in one of most powerful positions in the city.
Do you think that someone would be concerned at least a little in that situation.

What Orinso was doing was pointing out to the nobles that Merideth was using their fear of mages to rule the city and he was trying to get them to get Merideth to stop acting as vicount, and let the noblity rule Kirkwall.  
When Hawke states that s/he was willing to rule to Kirkwall, Merideth says she won't let that happen.

Even several of her own Templars state that she is not fit to lead the Templars of Kirkwall. Thask, Karen, Samason, and hell even Cullen is starting to think that she's losing it in Act 3 and there are also several nobles that want Merideth to step down.  

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
More a state of tyranny.

The lines between the two are blurry enough for reasonable, intelligent people, let alone fanatics and extremists, let alone alone a fanatic, extremist abomination.

Xilizhra wrote...
"Compromise" is synonymous, in this case, with an end to possible hot hostilities but continuing oppression.

That depends on the nature of the compromise, doesn't it?

Xilizhra wrote...
The Chantry would never seek a fair balance with the mages, it'd mean giving up power.

Then force the Chantry to 'seek a fair balance with the mages.'  Anders had no interest in forcing compromise on the Chantry, but rather his aim was to force war on the whole of Thedas.

[KJandrew]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

 The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed

No the Divine was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because of the huge number of blood mages and abomonations in the city, who are runnign rampant around the streets half the time. The First Enchanter is in the streets trying to encite rebellion against the Chantry. And in the some cases there is a mage in one of most powerful positions in the city.
Do you think that someone would be concerned at least a little in that situation.

What Orinso was doing was pointing out to the nobles that Merideth was using their fear of mages to rule the city and he was trying to get them to get Merideth to stop acting as vicount, and let the noblity rule Kirkwall.  
When Hawke states that s/he was willing to rule to Kirkwall, Merideth says she won't let that happen.

Even several of her own Templars state that she is not fit to lead the Templars of Kirkwall. Thask, Karen, Samason, and hell even Cullen is starting to think that she's losing it in Act 3 and there are also several nobles that want Merideth to step down.  

I'm not trying to say Meredith is in the right or anything, just that the divine is right to be concerned

[DKJaigen]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
More a state of tyranny.

The lines between the two are blurry enough for reasonable, intelligent people, let alone fanatics and extremists, let alone alone a fanatic, extremist abomination.

Xilizhra wrote...
"Compromise" is synonymous, in this case, with an end to possible hot hostilities but continuing oppression.

That depends on the nature of the compromise, doesn't it?

Why dont you propose a compromise thats both benefecial for the chantry and the mages.

Xilizhra wrote...
The Chantry would never seek a fair balance with the mages, it'd mean giving up power.

Then force the Chantry to 'seek a fair balance with the mages.'  Anders had no interest in forcing compromise on the Chantry, but rather his aim was to force war on the whole of Thedas.

That was not his aim. He wanted to start a revolution and he succeded. The fact that the whole world is at the brink of was shows how great the influence was of the chantry. But thats not anders fault

[Jedi Master of Orion]

DKJaigen wrote...

Fire can only be fought with fire. And if a large amount of people needs to die so be it. As long thedas improves

I dont care. The majority was stupid enough to support the chantry. Time for a lesson and let them learn from their mistakes

It never fails to amaze me how many people can get justifiably morally outraged at one issue in Dragon Age and yet think there is no possible atrocity that can not be justified if it's in service to whatever cause suits them. No matter what happens to mages, if the majority of people die, then that is the opposite of improving Thedas. Being an oppressed minority does not make mages exempt from any moral considerations. If the mage rebellion ends up waging war against all the rest of the world "supporting the Chantry" then it would be better to simply kill them all. Fewer people would die and there would be no more more mages to oppress.

Note: If the mages did so, I don't think wiping them out would be the right thing to do, just better than what the mages would be doing.

The Chantry isn't really the enemy anyway. It would be the same if the alienage elves managed to successfully rebel and slaughter most of the population of Kirkwall because they were stupid enough to support the civil authority in Kirkwall, which forces them to live in a squalid alienage and has corrupt guards.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 novembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[General User]

DKJaigen wrote...
Why dont you propose a compromise thats both benefecial for the chantry and the mages.

Why should I make a proposal for a course of action I do not believe in? 

The only compromise I would endorse would be one that is of benefit to mages and to Thedas' society as a whole.  If it ends up benefiting (and in what sense) the Chantry or not, that is incidental for me.

Modifié par General User, 13 novembre 2011 - 07:37 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

[KJandrew]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

This. 
This is what annoys me the most. Anders doesn't go and kill Meredith, who even the other templars are getting sick of or just put a smaller bomb in the Templar's quarters to get rid of the more extreme ones and on the side a bunch of collateral damage. Instead he attacks and kills one of the few people who's been stopping Meredith from killing all the mages and a bunch of other people, who despite what some of people on thsi board insist, are innocent. People who have been feeding starving children, helping refugees and giving both spiritual and physical help to the poeple of Kirkwall

[Heimdall]

KJandrew wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

This. 
This is what annoys me the most. Anders doesn't go and kill Meredith, who even the other templars are getting sick of or just put a smaller bomb in the Templar's quarters to get rid of the more extreme ones and on the side a bunch of collateral damage. Instead he attacks and kills one of the few people who's been stopping Meredith from killing all the mages and a bunch of other people, who despite what some of people on thsi board insist, are innocent. People who have been feeding starving children, helping refugees and giving both spiritual and physical help to the poeple of Kirkwall

Helping the mages of Kirkwall wasn't Ander's goal at all.  He wanted to incite conflict.  And in doing so, destroy the century long stalemate between mages and Templars.  The Mages of Kirkwall were sacrificial lambs.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Exactly. He wanted the templars to try and kill them all so they'd be forced to fight back and begin the open war that he talked about. Killing Meredith (at least right way) would have been counter productive to his agenda. He needed her to be the crazy fanatical Knight Commander who would violently overreact to his terrorism and start the conflict he wanted.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Which worked completely, and may bring about greater benefits.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Which "worked" completely, and resulted in the deaths of thousands, including many, many mages.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Which worked completely, and may bring about greater benefits.

If it does, it likely won't be due to Anders' efforts. In fact, mages would probably do well to have him killed ASAP if Hawke doesn't. PR being important, and all.

[SgtElias]

General User wrote...

Then force the Chantry to 'seek a fair balance with the mages.'

But . . . how, exactly? By asking nicely? With a strongly-worded letter? A mean glance? I assume that over time, several individuals, or possibly even the College of Magi as a whole, have tried to persuade the Chantry to give a little ground. Anyone remember that time when mages weren't allowed to do anything other than light the sacred fires in the Chantries throughout Thedas? And the Chantry's initial solution, when the mages of the Grand Cathedral finally protested, was to call an exalted march?

The Chantry has been in charge of mages for a long, long time. They aren't going to loosen that grip because a few people ask them to with stern glances. Anders did something that could not be ignored by its very nature, that would provoke Meredith into proving, once again, what a fanatic she was, and inciting the war that he thought would help mages after the dust had settled.

Now, if the argument is that what he did was morally reprehensible, well of course it was! The man blew up a building filled with people; when has it ever been morally acceptable to murder sentient beings? I admit he's straddling the line of freedom fighter/terrorist pretty finely.

General User wrote...

Anders had no interest in forcing compromise on the Chantry, but rather his aim was to force war on the whole of Thedas.

I agree entirely. He made a calculated decision to start a war. He looked at how mages had been treated under the Chantry, he drew from his own experience with the Circle in Ferleden, what he saw, heard, was told or assumed about the Circle in Kirkwall, and decided that a war now would cause less suffering in the end than another hundred, two hundred, five hundred years under the Chantry.

I suppose now the question is if he made the right decision. I think he did. I think that if you treat any sub-set of your population like dangerous criminals, teach them that they're cursed by their God-figure, take away their children no matter what their behaviour,  and keep them locked in old prisons and towers for most of their life, you pretty much are going to have a rebellion on your hands eventually, guaranteed. And it's not going to start with a peaceful protest.

Of course, others disagree. Vehemently. Aaaand thus the discussion continues.
Gods, I love these games. 

[Nightwriter]

Quite so.

In my eyes, Anders answered the abuse of the innocent by killing more innocents, with the argument that it might save more innocents later. I don't believe that any person has the right to take so many innocent lives based on a hypothetical future benefit, the likelihood of which is highly questionable, especially when there was an alternative which could've incited just as much rebellion and would've achieved the same effect.

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

He wants the targets to be purely military, and he is the sadist?

[katling73]

I actually don't see how Anders has helped the cause of mages in any way, shape or form. It's obvious from what Cassandra says that everyone knows Anders was the one who blew up the Chantry. Thus the general populace knows that a mage caused the war. I somehow doubt the general populace is going to then feel much sympathy for the mages. They're just going to lump them all on the same basket with Anders. Because that's what people do. Ask any Muslim in the street these days about that. They could give you chapter and verse about the subject.

So basically the general populace isn't going to support mage freedom, they're going to want to put even more restrictions on mages because mages are dangerous lunatics who blow up chantries. They're going to say that mages must be controlled even more than they were before. Apostates cannot be suffered to live. They shouldn't be taken to the Chantry, they should be killed outright. The general populace are more likely going to support the templars and the chantry.

Fundamentally, Anders has just made the lot of mages worse than it was before. Even if the mages win, he's ensured that they will be feared and hated.