288 réponses à ce sujet

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

He wants the targets to be purely military, and he is the sadist?

Yes but since you are ignorant about military matters i will forgive you that. But the fun thing is that destroying military targets is the least important aspect of war.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Right... In total war perhaps... Keeping the infrastructure of a country intact is actually the most important part of war, which isn't based on mindless idiocy. Getting rid of the government doesn't always aid you, since the military command most often acts seperately from government during actual war. So removing the government from the equation would not stop a nation's war machine. It could actually make it all a whole lot worse, since the military would lose all sorts of oversight, which would remove the possibility of a surrender (of more than individual commanders). And since the Chantry does not control the Templars in the events of actual war (they merely decide when the Templars should join), it wouldn't help removing them. Of course, I was talking of the hypothesis that the Templars were still under control of the Chantry, which tehy AREN'T, whcih in turn makes your notion of destroying the Chantry even more braindead, since that would only serve to give the population of Thedas even more reason to hate the mages, and only support the Templars in the long run. Not exactly a brilliant strategy for the mages...

[General User]

SgtElias wrote...

General User wrote...

Then force the Chantry to 'seek a fair balance with the mages.'

But. . . how, exactly? By asking nicely? With a strongly-worded letter? A mean glance? I assume that over time, several individuals, or possibly even the College of Magi as a whole, have tried to persuade the Chantry to give a little ground. Anyone remember that time when mages weren't allowed to do anything other than light the sacred fires in the Chantries throughout Thedas? And the Chantry's initial solution, when the mages of the Grand Cathedral finally protested, was to call an exalted march?

The Chantry has been in charge of mages for a long, long time. They aren't going to loosen that grip because a few people ask them to with stern glances. Anders did something that could not be ignored by its very nature, that would provoke Meredith into proving, once again, what a fanatic she was, and inciting the war that he thought would help mages after the dust had settled.

Now, if the argument is that what he did was morally reprehensible, well of course it was! The man blew up a building filled with people; when has it ever been morally acceptable to murder sentient beings? I admit he's straddling the line of freedom fighter/terrorist pretty finely.

He's got more than one foot in the 'crazy' camp too.

Am I giving out some sort to of hippie peace vibes?  'Cause if I am I do not want to screw that up.  As a general principle I do like to err on the side of peace. 

But In this case I really don't think 'mage freedom' (of any definition) is possible without violence.  The question for me comes down to this: what is the proper role for the individual when it comes to affecting social change?  And, though the details of the answer are complex, they can be boiled down to two words: 'organization' and 'protection', NOT blowing up any building or killing any person that catches their ire. 

If you really want to take on injustice, the general specifics go something like this: bring together enough persons of standing (in this case it would be commoners, clergy, and nobles of Thedas) and persuade them to come around to your point-of-view.  They need to be prominent, usually wealthy, respectable people. The sort of people that, when they speak, it cannot be ignored.  Then you convince them to speak.  Then you protect them from anyone who tries to silence them.  It's a process that can take years, and isn't going to satisfy any party or faction completely.  But, in the end, it's the only way to bring about stable, positive, lasting change.

It's the sort of task only a person of nigh unto unimpeachable moral character is suited for.

Modifié par General User, 14 novembre 2011 - 12:14 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Nightwriter wrote...

Quite so.

In my eyes, Anders answered the abuse of the innocent by killing more innocents, with the argument that it might save more innocents later. I don't believe that any person has the right to take so many innocent lives based on a hypothetical future benefit, the likelihood of which is highly questionable, especially when there was an alternative which could've incited just as much rebellion and would've achieved the same effect.

If Anders was enraged about the abuse of innocents, and killed innocents in reponse, that just makes him a hypocrit.

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

It's kinda funny that you write that, and then go on to call someone else "ignorant of miltiary matters".   Your understanding of history is fundamentally flawed. 

Or can you actually name for me the wars which were won without significant combat against the enemy's combat forces? 

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Right... In total war perhaps... Keeping the infrastructure of a country intact is actually the most important part of war, which isn't based on mindless idiocy. Getting rid of the government doesn't always aid you, since the military command most often acts seperately from government during actual war. So removing the government from the equation would not stop a nation's war machine. It could actually make it all a whole lot worse, since the military would lose all sorts of oversight, which would remove the possibility of a surrender (of more than individual commanders). And since the Chantry does not control the Templars in the events of actual war (they merely decide when the Templars should join), it wouldn't help removing them. Of course, I was talking of the hypothesis that the Templars were still under control of the Chantry, which tehy AREN'T, whcih in turn makes your notion of destroying the Chantry even more braindead, since that would only serve to give the population of Thedas even more reason to hate the mages, and only support the Templars in the long run. Not exactly a brilliant strategy for the mages...

Well said. 

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Right... In total war perhaps... Keeping the infrastructure of a country intact is actually the most important part of war, which isn't based on mindless idiocy

An important objective as well i admit. But to gain victory the destruction of your enemies political power is essential.

Getting rid of the government doesn't always aid you, since the military command most often acts seperately from government during actual war. So removing the government from the equation would not stop a nation's war machine. It could actually make it all a whole lot worse, since the military would lose all sorts of oversight, which would remove the possibility of a surrender (of more than individual commanders).

The wars in this century alone proves that you are wrong.

And since the Chantry does not control the Templars in the events of actual war (they merely decide when the Templars should join), it wouldn't help removing them.

Well duh, this construction is in play in nearly every country. And if the chantry decides that they can join a war they can also decide for the templars to leave a war. Like any political leader could do.

Of course, I was talking of the hypothesis that the Templars were still under control of the Chantry, which tehy AREN'T, whcih in turn makes your notion of destroying the Chantry even more braindead,

In my opinion that is even more reason for me to dismantle the chantry . Allowing an entire army to go rogue is a horrific scenario. And it should not be repeated again.

since that would only serve to give the population of Thedas even more reason to hate the mages, and only support the Templars in the long run. Not exactly a brilliant strategy for the mages...

What the population thinks is not that important. They will welcome peace. either through templar or mage victory.

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

It's kinda funny that you write that, and then go on to call someone else "ignorant of miltiary matters".   Your understanding of history is fundamentally flawed. 

Or can you actually name for me the wars which were won without significant combat against the enemy's combat forces? 

I didnt say that violence is not needed. But as i already said you have your priorities messed up. The germans surrenderd after berlin was taken. despite that 2.7 million german soldiers where still active. Destruction of your opponents political power is your main aim in war and not the destruction of the armed forces.And even if you destroy your opponents armed forces the main goal is still to destroy the political power behind it. Anders chose the right target.

[General User]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Quite so.

In my eyes, Anders answered the abuse of the innocent by killing more innocents, with the argument that it might save more innocents later. I don't believe that any person has the right to take so many innocent lives based on a hypothetical future benefit, the likelihood of which is highly questionable, especially when there was an alternative which could've incited just as much rebellion and would've achieved the same effect.

If Anders was enraged about the abuse of innocents, and killed innocents in reponse, that just makes him a hypocrit.

or just plain crazy.  I vote for 'crazy.'

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

It's kinda funny that you write that, and then go on to call someone else "ignorant of miltiary matters".   Your understanding of history is fundamentally flawed. 

Or can you actually name for me the wars which were won without significant combat against the enemy's combat forces? 

I didnt say that violence is not needed. But as i already said you have your priorities messed up. The germans surrenderd after berlin was taken. despite that 2.7 million german soldiers where still active. Destruction of your opponents political power is your main aim in war and not the destruction of the armed forces.And even if you destroy your opponents armed forces the main goal is still to destroy the political power behind it. Anders chose the right target.

Victory is the main aim of war.  The conditions necessary for victory depend on the circumstances and upon the goals of the belligerents. 

Attacking the Chantry will not help those Anders claims to be fighting for achieve any sort of victory.  It's counter-productive to their rational victory conditions.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

KJandrew wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

KJandrew wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

 The Divine in Orlais was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the Circle Mages did not like being practically oppressed

No the Divine was contemplating an Exalted March on Kirkwall because of the huge number of blood mages and abomonations in the city, who are runnign rampant around the streets half the time. The First Enchanter is in the streets trying to encite rebellion against the Chantry. And in the some cases there is a mage in one of most powerful positions in the city.
Do you think that someone would be concerned at least a little in that situation.

What Orsino was doing was pointing out to the nobles that Meredith was using their fear of mages to rule the city and he was trying to get them to get Meredith to stop acting as viscount, and let the nobility rule Kirkwall.  
When Hawke states that s/he was willing to rule to Kirkwall, Meredith says she won't let that happen.

Even several of her own Templars state that she is not fit to lead the Templars of Kirkwall. Thask, Karen, Samson, and hell even Cullen is starting to think that she's losing it in Act 3 and there are also several nobles that want Meredith to step down.  

I'm not trying to say Meredith is in the right or anything, just that the divine is right to be concerned

To be fair Orsino only rebelled after Anders blew up the Chantry and Meredith invoked the RoA. He even offered to surrender if she would have revoked the RoA.

The Divine and Leliana states this believed that the mage problems in Kirkwall were a result of outside group, whether that meant Hawke and company or the Revolutionists (or whatever that faction was) is somewhat ambiguous to me I mean the Hawke siblings, Anders, Aveline, Merrill, Isabella, Sebastian, and Fenris are technically from outside Kirkwall and can help to cause some of the problems that plague the city.   

[Sons of Horus]

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...
To be fair Orsino only rebelled after Anders blew up the Chantry and Meredith invoked the RoA. He even offered to surrender if she would have revoked the RoA.

The Divine and Leliana states this believed that the mage problems in Kirkwall were a result of outside group, whether that meant Hawke and company or the Revolutionists (or whatever that faction was) is somewhat ambiguous to me I mean the Hawke siblings, Anders, Aveline, Merrill, Isabella, Sebastian, and Fenris are technically from outside Kirkwall and can help to cause some of the problems that plague the city.   

That’s an interesting possibility Cyberstrike nTo. So the Kirkwall circle could have had links with the Revolutionists, that may explain the high percentage of blood mages hanging around in Kirkwall.

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Exactly.

If Anders wanted to fight a war, he should have attacked the enemy forces.

Which is the chantry

Templars.  For Anders, the enemy's armed fighting force would be the Templars.    Blowing up every Chantry building on Thedas won't free any mages -- it leaves the opposing fighting forces intact, and gives the general populace motivation to hate the mages. 

Wow you really are a sadist. In every war where a military power seeks to capture a land mostly intact targets the enemies political power and not its military one. What your describing is a form of total war that will leave the majority of the population dead. The chantry is the political power in this case.

It's kinda funny that you write that, and then go on to call someone else "ignorant of miltiary matters".   Your understanding of history is fundamentally flawed. 

Or can you actually name for me the wars which were won without significant combat against the enemy's combat forces? 

I didnt say that violence is not needed. But as i already said you have your priorities messed up. The germans surrenderd after berlin was taken. despite that 2.7 million german soldiers where still active. Destruction of your opponents political power is your main aim in war and not the destruction of the armed forces.And even if you destroy your opponents armed forces the main goal is still to destroy the political power behind it. Anders chose the right target.

Victory is the main aim of war.  The conditions necessary for victory depend on the circumstances and upon the goals of the belligerents. 

Well DUH!

Attacking the Chantry will not help those Anders claims to be fighting for achieve any sort of victory.  It's counter-productive to their rational victory conditions.

Explain this bit of bull**** to me then. Is the chantry not responsible for the creation of the templars? Is the chantry not responsible for the creation of the circles? So how is it counter-productive when you destroy the group that caused the conditions for the war?

Modifié par DKJaigen, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:03 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

For cripe's sake, earn to use quote tags, your post makes it look like you're quoting me arguing with myself. Sheesh.

You can't destroy "the Chantry", it's an idea and a belief, not a bunch of buildings. Most people in Thedas are Andrastians of some sort, largely of the Chantry sort. Attacking "the Chantry" is only going to convince them that mages are in fact to be feared and hated, that the extremist Templars and Sisters and Brothers were right all along. The Templars are still intact, and most of them are hardened against you now, with no room left for those who sought any sort of compromise or peaceful resolution.

Anders does get what he wants, but he has been fundamentally rendered irrational by the abolutism of the spirit he absorbed. He doesn't see compromise as possible because his mind has been warped. He sees no resolution other than one side or the other being utterly destroyed, and he sees the Chantry, the Templars, and the Circle as a singular entity with no distinctions.


Hypothetical similar situation: Blow up the White House "for your cause", what do you think happens? The military is still intact, and losing POTUS is something they've had contigency plans on for decades. The American people associate your cause with the destruction of the White House and the deaths of everyone there, including innocent people such as the cleaning staff, visitors, etc. All you've done is doom your cause.

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

For cripe's sake, earn to use quote tags, your post makes it look like you're quoting me arguing with myself. Sheesh.

You can't destroy "the Chantry", it's an idea and a belief, not a bunch of buildings. Most people in Thedas are Andrastians of some sort, largely of the Chantry sort. Attacking "the Chantry" is only going to convince them that mages are in fact to be feared and hated, that the extremist Templars and Sisters and Brothers were right all along. The Templars are still intact, and most of them are hardened against you now, with no room left for those who sought any sort of compromise or peaceful resolution.

Believes can be destroyed. one way or the other the chantry will be destroyed. either by the mages or by the tevinter imperum/qunari.

Anders does get what he wants, but he has been fundamentally rendered irrational by the abolutism of the spirit he absorbed. He doesn't see compromise as possible because his mind has been warped. He sees no resolution other than one side or the other being utterly destroyed, and he sees the Chantry, the Templars, and the Circle as a singular entity with no distinctions.

religious people have no ability to compromise. So anders is right

Hypothetical similar situation: Blow up the White House "for your cause", what do you think happens? The military is still intact, and losing POTUS is something they've had contigency plans on for decades. The American people associate your cause with the destruction of the White House and the deaths of everyone there, including innocent people such as the cleaning staff, visitors, etc. All you've done is doom your cause.

Not even close to a hypothetical similar situation

[Killjoy Cutter]

Learn to quote.

Learn to spell.

Learn to not issue blanket judgements.  

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 14 novembre 2011 - 06:40 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

DKJaigen wrote...

Believes can be destroyed.[/b] one way or the other the chantry will be destroyed. either by the mages or by the tevinter imperum/qunari.

religious people have no ability to compromise. So anders is right

Both of these things are ridiculous. Most mages are Andrastian, they aren't at war with the Chantry or Andrastianism or with religion. Neither the Qunari nor the Tevinter nor the Qunari are likley to wipe out the Chantry. The only way they could pull that off is if they managed to kill most everyone in Thedas who believes in the Maker. Even the Qunari are unlikley to have the level of strength required for that.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 14 novembre 2011 - 07:24 .

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Learn to quote.

Learn to spell.

Learn to not issue blanket judgements.  

I'm not going to put so much effort on the likes of you.

Both of these things are ridiculous. Most mages are Andrastian, they
aren't at war with the Chantry or Andrastianism or with religion.
Neither the Qunari nor the Tevinter nor the Qunari are likley to wipe
out the Chantry. The only way they could pull that off is if they
managed to kill most everyone in Thedas who believes in the Maker. Even
the Qunari are unlikley to have the level of strength required for that.

Being an an andrastian doesn't mean much. Or have you forgotten that Anders is pretty much a devout andrastian.And why can't the qunari or the tevinter imperium wipe out the chantry? Both factions have proven that they are equal to all the andrastian nations combined. And those nations right now have lost both their mages and their templars and are in shambles. If the qunari take over thedas they will wipe out the chantry within 1 generation as they seperate the childeren from ther families and indoctrinate them in the ways of the qun. The tevinter imperium will take longer but they will simply enforce their chantry.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 14 novembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Imperium is crumbling and isn't in a position to attack anyone. The Codex says Orlais is the most powerful human nation, not Tevinter. And Qunari are powerful enough to fight all the other nations but in the last Qunari war they spent most of it in a slow retreat. The invasions were halted in the Free Marches and were driven out of Tevinter within 50 years. They'd need to capture and hold more than twice that area in order to succeed at destroying the Chantry. So far they haven't eve solidified their hold on Seheron.

[The dead fish]

I agree with all said Killjoy Cutter and some others. Pretty much my mind. And what I read from the other side, seems not at all convincing...

Anders did nothing for mages ( even if it was his will ), I don't get where people did get that. He's just a poor terrorist idiot.

He destroyed the sympathy of the people by his act to the cause of the Mages. Kudos. This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

People are religious in Thedas, and so for the symbol of "freedom", you destroy a church and innocent civilians. Kudos. Yes, of course, why not also to improve the situation of religious minorities by attacking the symbols, innocent people, and churches of other religions.

I do not see where you see a strategy here. I do not see where you see an intelligence. I do not see how this symbol destroyed has given a better situation for mages, in terms of sympathy.

The mages rebelled because of Meredith's madness, they had no choice. Mages will be eradicated if the continent's population fully supports the Templars.

I advise all pro-mage to kill this guy and don't let him lead the revolution XD. This guy is entangled in a partisan ideological fanaticism that has ravaged his mind and common sense. He has no strategic vision, he dreams, that's all. The war will be lost with a fool like him.

Mages need the support or the indifference of people, they can't win this war alone. And I laugh when I see people saying, the chantry must be destroyed.

Yeah. Before that, you need to fight all the andrastian continent. Good luck.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 14 novembre 2011 - 08:17 .

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Imperium is crumbling and isn't in a position to attack anyone. The Codex says Orlais is the most powerful human nation, not Tevinter. And Qunari are powerful enough to fight all the other nations but in the last Qunari war they spent most of it in a slow retreat. The invasions were halted in the Free Marches and were driven out of Tevinter within 50 years. They'd need to capture and hold more than twice that area in order to succeed at destroying the Chantry. So far they haven't eve solidified their hold on Seheron.

Yes but this is all before the mage-templar war.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

It is unlikely the mage templar war will make such a difference that the Qunari who failed to conquer half of Thedas before will now successfully control all of it. It's not as if every nation in Thedas will have their entire armies vanish.

Besides, from a storytelling perspective do you really think Bioware will have the Qunari successfully subjugate all powers of Thedas?

[Killjoy Cutter]

It also depends on how the mages and templars fight in each nation.

In one place, it might be outright war with regular military forces, rebels, militias, competing nobles, etc, getting involved on both sides. In another place, it might be resticted to the most belligerent mages and templars, with most mages trying to keep their heads down and most templars concentrating their efforts on trouble-makers, demonologists, etc.

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

It is unlikely the mage templar war will make such a difference that the Qunari who failed to conquer half of Thedas before will now successfully control all of it. It's not as if every nation in Thedas will have their entire armies vanish.

Besides, from a storytelling perspective do you really think Bioware will have the Qunari successfully subjugate all powers of Thedas?

No but i will give a nice external threat for the story line. B.T.W. mages where  1 of the 2 reason why Qunari where pushed back. But ot be honest we will simply have to wait till DA3

[LinksOcarina]

No, but it is a possibility. We have seen in the background info on the Codexes what the Qunari have a foothold in Seheron and a major settlement Rivian. The threat of them invading is always a boogeyman, has been since the first game when we met Sten; I think it will be inevitable when it happens but I am curious to see how it is treated.

As for the the pages of stuff regarding the validity of the Chantry as a target, I wan to point out that both sides are technically right. The Templar order is, in fact, a part of the Chantry if it is following real-world rules of how the Templars actually worked during the Crusades. Basically, it is the military arm of the Chantry; the Divine is the de-facto commander in chief, and the entire army onto itself is equipped in case another exalted march begins.

Also, it should be noted that the Knight-Commanders answer to the Grand Clerics in practice. You notice that Meredith didn't act until Elthina was killed; not only due to the severity of the attack but also because of chain of command. And Elthina was not exactly looking for peace between the two sides either; she was probably forcing Meredith to curtail herself until there was no other choice, and also probably noticed the madness that was creeping in due to the idol.

Point being, Anders attacking the Chantry is a technical political target not because it was where the military arm of the order is, but because it is where the seat of power is. The Templars are still under the control of the Chantry in that regard, ergo in Anders mind it seemed like taking the fight to where it hurt the most is what one should do.

Of course, that doesn't condone his actions, but it will make sympathizers of mages, non-andrastians and other groups probably join the fight. Everything points to this being as close to a holy war as possible throughout Thedas on the principles of mages, so naturally it makes the Chantry viable targets and a threat all at once.

Which is probably why the next game will be in Orlais...I have a feeling something big is going to happen in Val Royeux.