288 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

LinksOcarina wrote...
Point being, Anders attacking the Chantry is a technical political target not because it was where the military arm of the order is, but because it is where the seat of power is. The Templars are still under the control of the Chantry in that regard, ergo in Anders mind it seemed like taking the fight to where it hurt the most is what one should do.

Anders simply did not have the right to make those decisions or to strike at any targets, be they military, political, or religious.  Politically motivated murder is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter if one happens to agree with the politics in question or not.  "[S]ympathizers of mages, non-andrastians and other groups" will recognize that too.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Point being, Anders attacking the Chantry is a technical political target not because it was where the military arm of the order is, but because it is where the seat of power is. The Templars are still under the control of the Chantry in that regard, ergo in Anders mind it seemed like taking the fight to where it hurt the most is what one should do.

Anders simply did not have the right to make those decisions or to strike at any targets, be they military, political, or religious.  Politically motivated murder is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter if one happens to agree with the politics in question or not.  "[S]ympathizers of mages, non-andrastians and other groups" will recognize that too.

They'll recognize the mages' rebellion more, luckily. Anders seems barely remembered.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Point being, Anders attacking the Chantry is a technical political target not because it was where the military arm of the order is, but because it is where the seat of power is. The Templars are still under the control of the Chantry in that regard, ergo in Anders mind it seemed like taking the fight to where it hurt the most is what one should do.

Anders simply did not have the right to make those decisions or to strike at any targets, be they military, political, or religious.  Politically motivated murder is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter if one happens to agree with the politics in question or not.  "[S]ympathizers of mages, non-andrastians and other groups" will recognize that too.

They'll recognize the mages' rebellion more, luckily. Anders seems barely remembered.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. 

Thomas Jefferson once wrote "that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

And two hundred years later John Lennon wrote, "We all want to change the world.  But when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out."

If we want Thedas to rally to the mages cause we need to make the case for why "mage freedom" benefits/uplifts/protects Thedas.  Childish "Oh the poor mages!" and/or "The Templars and/or the Chantry are full of awful meanies!" simply ain't gonna pull many recruits, and the ones we do get are as often as not gonna be the sort of people we'd be better off without.

[esper]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Point being, Anders attacking the Chantry is a technical political target not because it was where the military arm of the order is, but because it is where the seat of power is. The Templars are still under the control of the Chantry in that regard, ergo in Anders mind it seemed like taking the fight to where it hurt the most is what one should do.

Anders simply did not have the right to make those decisions or to strike at any targets, be they military, political, or religious.  Politically motivated murder is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter if one happens to agree with the politics in question or not.  "[S]ympathizers of mages, non-andrastians and other groups" will recognize that too.

They'll recognize the mages' rebellion more, luckily. Anders seems barely remembered.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. 

Thomas Jefferson once wrote "that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

And two hundred years later John Lennon wrote, "We all want to change the world.  But when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out."

If we want Thedas to rally to the mages cause we need to make the case for why "mage freedom" benefits/uplifts/protects Thedas.  Childish "Oh the poor mages!" and/or "The Templars and/or the Chantry are full of awful meanies!" simply ain't gonna pull many recruits, and the ones we do get are as often as not gonna be the sort of people we'd be better off without.

Thedas glorifies war. Every hero is at some point a warrior/fighter/war hero.They have not yet had a ww1 to sake them up. The profet of the domerneering religion is a Joan'd'arc (spelling?) not a Jeasus.

[General User]

Neither Thomas Jefferson, nor John Lennon was a Christian and the former obviously predates WWI.

Human nature is human nature. Thedans are not going to radically restructure their whole society simply because their culture glorifies combat.

Modifié par General User, 14 novembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[LinksOcarina]

General User wrote...
Anders simply did not have the right to make those decisions or to strike at any targets, be they military, political, or religious.  Politically motivated murder is absolutely unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter if one happens to agree with the politics in question or not.  "[S]ympathizers of mages, non-andrastians and other groups" will recognize that too.

A couple of things you need to now define then, all pertaining to a civilized society.

First, a civilized society is very subjective, because there is no real blanket rules as to what "civilized" actually means. Things like murder and assasination happen all the time in "civilized societies" in the real world; does that make them barbaric as anyone else? For example, the recent killings of the terrorist Al-Awaki by the U.S drone strikes, some saw that as a military action, others saw it as a political assasination that should be against a civilized society.

We also have spying and espianoge, perjury , funding terrorist organizations, favoring so called- terrorist groups, political bribes and cronyism, and gerrymandering to contend with too. All of it is terrible and hurts the people as a whole, but all of it is apparently tolerated in civilized society, despite the fact it can financially or physically ruin people in the process.

Of course, we need to go a step further too. A civilized society should not condone murder, but why do many countries have a death penalty? What about unjustified wars and military actions, civil violence and disobedience, and lack of racism. All of this contradicts the blanket term in the broadest sense. 

Therefore, a civilized society as you would call for it (based on everything you said) would be something that is sort of utopian, where people would help each other to a point ,wanton murder and political assasinations shouldn't happen, and everyone would be against it when it does. But that is also impossible to achieve. Again, going back to the Al-Awaki example, not everyone in the U.S here agreed with the decision to kill him with a drone, even though it happened. Others felt it was the right thing to do at the time. 

This is how complex socio-political studies work. This is also why I love the richness in the lore of Dragon Age. It is real easy for a lot of us to percieve Anders as a terrorist, and rightfully so. But to Anders he is nothing of the sort. Vengance doesn't matter, his own convictions don't matter, hell, the fact that it's not his call to say what is right and wrong doesn't matter either. All of it is insignificant the moment he pulled the trigger on the Chantry.

The point is not how to percieve Anders before he did what he did (which hurts his case) but rather how he will be viewed after what he did. People are unpredictable in that regard; maybe some (like the groups I mentioned) will see this as an oppertunity to go against the Chantry for various reasons, we might see the Chasind or Avar Hillsmen in Ferelden help the mages, hell even King Alistar might back them up since he has done so (at least in passing according to the dialogue) in this war. And let's not forget the Tevinter Imperium either; they may not have the political power they once had, but this can also be seen as an oppertunity for them to regain a lot of that lost glory due to the Mage-Chantry war going on. We might also see the Rivians throw their lots in because of the polythesistic/animist/non-Chantry ways clash with the Templars and Orlais. Hell, I bet we shall see a full scale war between Orlais and Tevinter if things escalate enough...but that is speculation.

It doesn't have to be a morality struggle then either, it becomes a poltiical game which I think is even more dangerous.

Point being, it doesn't matter if Anders had the right to or not, fact of the matter is he chose to do so, and in the end it changes the game entirely. We can't really predict what will happen from now on, but both sides, like Grand Cleric Elthina said, have valid points and horrible weaknesses to contend with, and makes it far from a black and white issue for all of us playing these games. At least, I would hope so but for me, thats how I see it.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 14 novembre 2011 - 11:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Thomas Jefferson once wrote "that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

And two hundred years later John Lennon wrote, "We all want to change the world. But when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out."

If we want Thedas to rally to the mages cause we need to make the case for why "mage freedom" benefits/uplifts/protects Thedas. Childish "Oh the poor mages!" and/or "The Templars and/or the Chantry are full of awful meanies!" simply ain't gonna pull many recruits, and the ones we do get are as often as not gonna be the sort of people we'd be better off without.

Given Thomas Jefferson's participation in slavery, he should know. It is indeed an unfortunate flaw of human nature, but luckily the mages have beaten it.

As for John Lennon... I don't think the world works that way. The only way to bring about widespread social mobility for a specific group without violence is if they're already integrated into the wider society, as it was for women and homosexuals (but not blacks; that was extremely long and bloody). Mages are very much not this.

[dragonflight288]

One thing that's ironic that I absolutely love-when people want Utopia to be here and now, whether real life or fantasy, there missing the irony.

The word "utopia" actually means "no-place."

[Tryynity]

My favourite war - The war to end all wars ....

Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


William Ernest Henley

[Herr Uhl]

Tryynity wrote...

My favourite war - The war to end all wars ....

Err, what? You mean The Great War? Or do you mean it like the Yngwie kind?

Invictus

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.


William Ernest Henley

What I find amusing about the use of this, if it is in a positive light to Anders, is the last paragraph. As his express mission was to force mages to fight. Not inspiring them, forcing them.

At least that is my interpretation of the situation.

[Tryynity]

Edit : THE War to end all Wars = Mastery of one's soul

&

It was just a moment of randomness - but I am trying to say is this... I think...

Justice became Vengence because of anger within Ander's soul...

Had Justice been in control (not Vengence) that would not have happened - does that make sense?

Modifié par Tryynity, 15 novembre 2011 - 10:16 .

[DKJaigen]

Herr Uhl wrote...

What I find amusing about the use of this, if it is in a positive light to Anders, is the last paragraph. As his express mission was to force mages to fight. Not inspiring them, forcing them.

At least that is my interpretation of the situation.

Thats not true. Meredith forced them into battle not anders. Furthermore all circles in thedas rebelled. So he did inspire them and certainly didnt force them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders knew what Meredith's reaction would be, and he fully planned for it. So Anders was the one who forced the fight.

[Tryynity]

Oh yes - but I was addressing the comment re: Anders.

Meredith is a Paladin gone bad - IMO only ... but again my point her soul was corrupted/able - not evil but like lawful good on amphetamines

Which is not good... really.

Modifié par Tryynity, 15 novembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[Finnish Dragon]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders knew what Meredith's reaction would be, and he fully planned for it. So Anders was the one who forced the fight.

I wonder how much did Anders know about Meredith and her state of mind. Anyway, Anders did know that the Grand Cleric Elthina was the only person who could keep Meredith under control. So, Anders´ plan was pretty simple to kill the Grand Cleric and at the same time creating a real shock effect to all people in Kirkwall by blowing up the Cathedral.

I think the best modern comparison is to compare blowing up the Cathedral to the attack on WTC in 2001. When that attack happened the situation was very confusing and people were shocked. It seems to be that the same thing happened at Kirkwall when Anders blew up the Cathedral. If Anders knew that the Knight-Commander was losing her mental health then blowing up the Cathedral was like forcing her to react to that tragedy very quickly and without considering the consequences of the actions taken during that day.

Meredith´s deteriorating mental together with the general shock caused and the death of the Grand Cleric by the blowing up the Chantry probably forced Meredith to issue the Right of Annulment. When people are in shock they do not generally think reasonably. There is also a possibility that the Templar Order has secret orders to do that if the chain of command is broken and they have a good reason to suspect that the Circle is tainted.   

The chain of command is broken because the Grand Cleric is dead and there is at least one mage taking responsibility for that. Meredith knows that there has been more blood mages and at this situation she is the ranking templar which means that she has to decide what the templars should do. At the same time, her judgement is twisted by the idol which is unknown to Hawke and his/her companions. In practice, it means that Meredith did have a lot responsibility on her shoulders and she was not very capable to manage that situation. Ultimately, Meredith´s response was that people were either with her or against her. 

I agree with the people who are saying that Anders calculated all of this and Anders wanted to use both mages and the general population in Kirkwall as sacrificial lambs. Anders was a fanatic who was willing to die in order to make his vision to happen in real life and to start a war. It seems to be that Anders´ vision in a process was to destroy both the chantry and the templar order because after bombing the cathedral their willingness to negotiate was probably very low. In practice, Anders was advocating for a magocracy to replace them.  

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Anders knew what Meredith's reaction would be, and he fully planned for it. So Anders was the one who forced the fight.

Even if he did it was still meredith who could have prevented all this. And he is still not responsible for the other circles

[General User]

LinksOcarina wrote...
First, a civilized society is very subjective, because there is no real blanket rules as to what "civilized" actually means.

Yeah, but you know it when you see it.  And a solitary madman planting a bomb in a cathedral in order to start a major war, ain't it.

LinksOcarina wrote...
Therefore, a civilized society as you would call for it (based on everything you said)

As a courtesy, when you use a phrase like "based on everything you said"  I would appreciate if you actually quoted me,  so I know what you're referring to and how I should respond.  TIA

LinksOcarina wrote...
This is how complex socio-political studies work. This is also why I love the richness in the lore of Dragon Age. It is real easy for a lot of us to percieve Anders as a terrorist, and rightfully so. But to Anders he is nothing of the sort. Vengance doesn't matter, his own convictions don't matter, hell, the fact that it's not his call to say what is right and wrong doesn't matter either. All of it is insignificant the moment he pulled the trigger on the Chantry.

To those of us who were not inside the Kirkwall Chantry when Anders blew it up, specifically those of us asked to decide what to do about the whole situation, the "whys" of the affair should matter a great deal. 

Also the bolded bit makes no sense to me.

LinksOcarina wrote...
The point is not how to percieve Anders before he did what he did (which hurts his case) but rather how he will be viewed after what he did. People are unpredictable in that regard; maybe some (like the groups I mentioned) will see this as an oppertunity to go against the Chantry for various reasons, we might see the Chasind or Avar Hillsmen in Ferelden help the mages, hell even King Alistar might back them up since he has done so (at least in passing according to the dialogue) in this war. And let's not forget the Tevinter Imperium either; they may not have the political power they once had, but this can also be seen as an oppertunity for them to regain a lot of that lost glory due to the Mage-Chantry war going on. We might also see the Rivians throw their lots in because of the polythesistic/animist/non-Chantry ways clash with the Templars and Orlais. Hell, I bet we shall see a full scale war between Orlais and Tevinter if things escalate enough...but that is speculation.

Many groups both including and apart from the relatively benign ones you mention (Tevinter may or may not fall into the "benign" category) will use the chaos of  Mage-Templar War to push for their own agendas and interests.  That's the number one reason why avoiding chaos like this, is so important.

LinksOcarina wrote...
Point being, it doesn't matter if Anders had the right to or not, fact of the matter is he chose to do so, and in the end it changes the game entirely.

It should matter to the people who have to decide Anders' fate.  And that's us.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...
Given Thomas Jefferson's participation in slavery, he should know. It is indeed an unfortunate flaw of human nature, but luckily the mages have beaten it.

Even if it were true that the mages have somehow overcome their human natures (and it isn't), the rest of Thedas still very much have to contend with their own "human" natures. 
And Thomas Jeffersons apt description of human nature very much fits the mages of the Kirkwall Circle.  They only rebelled once the evils they were suffering became absolutely intolerable (ie Meredith tried to have them all killed).

Xilizhra wrote...
As for John Lennon... I don't think the world works that way. The only way to bring about widespread social mobility for a specific group without violence is if they're already integrated into the wider society, as it was for women and homosexuals (but not blacks; that was extremely long and bloody). Mages are very much not this.

Without mentioning specific RW minority groups, it's like I said, mages have to make the case for why their freedom/emancipation is a positive thing for the rest of Thedas.  And also like I said, it's going to be an at times violent process that takes years and years and will probably never satisfy every party completely, but if lasting, positive change is your goal, it's the only way.

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

What I find amusing about the use of this, if it is in a positive light to Anders, is the last paragraph. As his express mission was to force mages to fight. Not inspiring them, forcing them.

At least that is my interpretation of the situation.

Thats not true. Meredith forced them into battle not anders. Furthermore all circles in thedas rebelled. So he did inspire them and certainly didnt force them.

Had Anders not blown the Chantry to bits along with everyone inside it and lit much of hightown on fire in the process, it's quite possible that the situation with Meredith could have been strung out until it became obvious that she had gone fruitbat, and the war could have been avoided. 

Of course, the entire game was a railroad chugging along toward that end. 

With all the expressed support that Hawke gets from the nobility after openly opposing Meredith, and the anti-Meredith faction within the Templars growing, it's quite likely that Hawke could have taken the title of Viscount and forced an entirely different sort of confrontation with Meredith.  As both Viscount and Champion, Hawke would have been in a position to appeal to the Devine, via Elthina and "Sister Nightengale", for the removal of Meredith from the office of Knight Commander of Kirkwall. 

[Herr Uhl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Thats not true. Meredith forced them into battle not anders. Furthermore all circles in thedas rebelled. So he did inspire them and certainly didnt force them.

Anders: "There can be no compromise!"

No, it totally wasn't what he tried to do. He decided that they couldn't try to work things out so he removed the chance for compromise. I really can't see how this isn't trying to force a conflict.

[DKJaigen]

Herr Uhl wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Thats not true. Meredith forced them into battle not anders. Furthermore all circles in thedas rebelled. So he did inspire them and certainly didnt force them.

Anders: "There can be no compromise!"

No, it totally wasn't what he tried to do. He decided that they couldn't try to work things out so he removed the chance for compromise. I really can't see how this isn't trying to force a conflict.

That he wants a conflict is true. But you say he forced a conflict on the mages. which is simply not true since the mages rebelled on their own accord. Also he didnt force a conflict on the mages of kirkwall that was Meredith.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 15 novembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

With all the expressed support that Hawke gets from the nobility after openly opposing Meredith, and the anti-Meredith faction within the Templars growing, it's quite likely that Hawke could have taken the title of Viscount and forced an entirely different sort of confrontation with Meredith.  As both Viscount and Champion, Hawke would have been in a position to appeal to the Devine, via Elthina and "Sister Nightengale", for the removal of Meredith from the office of Knight Commander of Kirkwall. 

That would take a while. All the while Meredith continues to run the city and the circle into the ground.

Anders knew what Meredith's reaction would be, and he fully planned for it. So Anders was the one who forced the fight.

Then Meredith is an idiot

Modifié par DKJaigen, 15 novembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Meredith is paranoid and insane. Anders problem wasn't Meredith though. He didn't really care about overthrowing her specifically. His problem was the entire system. If Meredith was overthrown and Kirkwall restored to peace then he would have failed in his plan. He wanted to mages to rebel everywhere.

[LinksOcarina]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Meredith is paranoid and insane. Anders problem wasn't Meredith though. He didn't really care about overthrowing her specifically. His problem was the entire system. If Meredith was overthrown and Kirkwall restored to peace then he would have failed in his plan. He wanted to mages to rebel everywhere.

Which is why he went after the Chantry in the first place. It was a valid target to him. because of what it represented both politically and socially to the people.

[Herr Uhl]

DKJaigen wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Anders: "There can be no compromise!"

No, it totally wasn't what he tried to do. He decided that they couldn't try to work things out so he removed the chance for compromise. I really can't see how this isn't trying to force a conflict.

That he wants a conflict is true. But you say he forced a conflict on the mages. which is simply not true since the mages rebelled on their own accord. Also he didnt force a conflict on the mages of kirkwall that was Meredith.

I'm saying that it was his intent.