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[Killjoy Cutter]

Anders doesn't want a resolution, he doesn't want freedom, he doesn't want justice. Anders wants war. The outcome doesn't matter by the time he destroys the Chantry building in Kirkwall. The mages could just as easily be wiped out in his war, but he doesn't care, to him, death in fighting is prefereable to anything short of absolute victory, and so moves to impose that dichotomy on every other mage in Thedas.

[Realmzmaster]

Anders removes any chance at compromise.He does not want one. He wants war. One side or the other will cease to exist. If the mages die so be it. In Ander's eyes it is better they die free and fighting whether they want to or not.

W.T. Sherman said it best : "War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the
sooner it will be over." Sherman was a proponent of total or hard war.

Anders imposes his will on every other mage in Thedas. He is making them choose his side. The templars will not see any mage as neutral or on their side in a war. Meredith is not an idiot. Elthina was a friend to Meredith. Anders not only killed the Grand Cleric but also her friend. In Meredith's eyes (not even accounting for her paranoid state) this would require an immediate reaction.
This event happen when Meredith was about to search the Circle for blood mages. Her friend is dead. The Circle may be infested with blood mages only one action left in her mind The Rite of Annulment. Remove the mages and you remove the threat.

If Meredith had listen to Sebastian she would have just executed Anders, but that would still leave the problem of blood mages in the Circle. Far easier to eradicate both problems.

It would have been far more interesting to see Meredith slip into madness without the idol because of her paranoia. Bioware gave an excuse for her accelerated madness by using the idol instead of her just spiraling down on her own.

[Gabey5]

I think some people in this thread may be forgetting 'Justice'

[Realmzmaster]

No one is forgetting Justice, but even Anders no longer knows where Anders ends and Justice begins. They have become one. Justice takes control when Anders lets his rage get the better of him, which begins to happen more and more as the game progresses.

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders doesn't want a resolution, he doesn't want freedom, he doesn't want justice. Anders wants war. The outcome doesn't matter by the time he destroys the Chantry building in Kirkwall. The mages could just as easily be wiped out in his war, but he doesn't care, to him, death in fighting is prefereable to anything short of absolute victory, and so moves to impose that dichotomy on every other mage in Thedas.

So he just started a war for the lulz then? Because you just stripped him of all motive to start a war. War is not something you consider lightly but in this case i support it. And if the mages are wiped out so be it. But its better to have tried to become free then to never have tried at all.

[Finnish Dragon]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders doesn't want a resolution, he doesn't want freedom, he doesn't want justice. Anders wants war. The outcome doesn't matter by the time he destroys the Chantry building in Kirkwall. The mages could just as easily be wiped out in his war, but he doesn't care, to him, death in fighting is prefereable to anything short of absolute victory, and so moves to impose that dichotomy on every other mage in Thedas.

So he just started a war for the lulz then? Because you just stripped him of all motive to start a war. War is not something you consider lightly but in this case i support it. And if the mages are wiped out so be it. But its better to have tried to become free then to never have tried at all.

That is an extremely risky approach. The consequence of Anders´ decision was that there would either be victory or death. He didn´t know what the majority of mages in Thedas though about his ideas or plans. He decided to force the issue and he had no realistic exit strategy for the war. One question is that if the mage-templar war seriously weakens Thedas and opens the door for the new wave of Qunari invasion after the war then how much of that would be Anders´ fault? 

One can compare Anders´ idea to start a war to the advice that the Oracle of Delphi gave to Croesus, the King of Lydia. If Croesus attacks the Persians then he will destroy a great kingdom. He started a war and his kingdom was ultimately destroyed. Anders is too idealistic and believes that he could make the world better place.  

As a character Anders has a deeply flawed personality especially after the merger between Anders and Justice. He sees everything in black and white. He sees himself as the good guy, the martyr, who is willing to die in order to start a war against the oppressive templars. Because of that, he really doesn´t truely understand his enemies. At the same time, he overestimates how morally good other mages are and that is quite surprising because in Kirkwall before that there were a long list of evil mages that Hawke and his/her companions kill. 

The ordinary people are afraid of mages because one possessed mage has enough firepower to destroy a village. In practice, it would require some kind of organization to police the mages in order to prevent mages becoming abominations. The templar order may not be the best solution but it is a better solution than mages policing themselves.

However, ultimately one key question is that who will guard the guardsmen and the templar order does not have a proper answer for that question. What is the proper way to deal with corrupted templars like Ser Alric inside the templar order. Another option is to have mages policing themselves but that is something like to have fox in a henhouse. A mage guarding another mage has a bigger chance to be first mage´s accomplice than a templar has.

[DKJaigen]

Finnish Dragon wrote...


That is an extremely risky approach. The consequence of Anders´ decision was that there would either be victory or death. He didn´t know what the majority of mages in Thedas though about his ideas or plans. He decided to force the issue and he had no realistic exit strategy for the war. One question is that if the mage-templar war seriously weakens Thedas and opens the door for the new wave of Qunari invasion after the war then how much of that would be Anders´ fault? 

Perhaps he knew. But the fact is that Anders is right as all circles rebelled. And as such its pointless thing to discuss. And the problem of a new qunari invasion is indeed a consideration. But under the chantry Thedas has not advanced. The qunari seems to be doing some research however. Sooner or later the chantry needs to be removed or qunari will win through sheer technological advantage.

One can compare Anders´ idea to start a war to the advice that the Oracle of Delphi gave to Croesus, the King of Lydia. If Croesus attacks the Persians then he will destroy a great kingdom. He started a war and his kingdom was ultimately destroyed. Anders is too idealistic and believes that he could make the world better place.  

Im not sure if i see the resemblance between these 2. Anders is not creating a war for glory or power but because of an ideal

As a character Anders has a deeply flawed personality especially after the merger between Anders and Justice. He sees everything in black and white. He sees himself as the good guy, the martyr, who is willing to die in order to start a war against the oppressive templars. Because of that, he really doesn´t truely understand his enemies. At the same time, he overestimates how morally good other mages are and that is quite surprising because in Kirkwall before that there were a long list of evil mages that Hawke and his/her companions kill. 

Oh he is flawed alright. And he does have a bit black and white thinking. But he still gets angry at mages who abuse their power. Look at how he rants at Tharone.

The ordinary people are afraid of mages because one possessed mage has enough firepower to destroy a village. In practice, it would require some kind of organization to police the mages in order to prevent mages becoming abominations. The templar order may not be the best solution but it is a better solution than mages policing themselves.

You do not prevent abominations. You hunt them down and kill them. And the best way to do this is by sending people who can identify them and  who are not suspectible to lyrium bribes. Training some warriors in templar tactics  to aid such a mage is not a bad idea.

However, ultimately one key question is that who will guard the guardsmen and the templar order does not have a proper answer for that question. What is the proper way to deal with corrupted templars like Ser Alric inside the templar order. Another option is to have mages policing themselves but that is something like to have fox in a henhouse. A mage guarding another mage has a bigger chance to be first mage´s accomplice than a templar has.

As  a policeofficer i say that this is utter nonsense. People are driven by morals. And thats the problem with the templar order: they have no morals only zeal.

[Merela]

In my opinion, Anders was false about his own futur role in the rebellion of all the mages. He's convinced that Meredith's attack on Kirkwall's mages will be enough for every mages in Thedas to rebel. That's also what Varric affirms since he can't metagaming but the rebellion seems to be more likely the consequence of Rhys's actions in the coming book "Asunder" than Anders' one. Anders sees himself as a romantic hero, the spark that will blast the world "for the better" (that, of course, depends of your points of view). But so far, his actions appears to me as a flash in the pan. A bright, deadly flash in the pan of Kirkwall, but *just* a flash in Thedas' gigantic pan. At the end of the conflict, I doubt he'll be really remember as somebody important for the mages' revolt, except maybe in Kirkwall - and he'll possibly be shadowed by the ghost of Meredith's rule on the city.

*shrugs* I don't know if it's clear, or if it does advance the schmilbilk, but I just wanted to express my disagreement on the "Anders Savior of all the Mages!" idea.

Modifié par Merela, 16 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Finnish Dragon]

DKJaigen wrote...

Perhaps he knew. But the fact is that Anders is right as all circles rebelled. And as such its pointless thing to discuss. And the problem of a new qunari invasion is indeed a consideration. But under the chantry Thedas has not advanced. The qunari seems to be doing some research however. Sooner or later the chantry needs to be removed or qunari will win through sheer technological advantage.  

Yes, Anders was right when he predicted a full-scale mage rebellion. It is true that Thedas should be more innovative but the right point to start the reform isn´t starting a full-scale rebellion. I even laugh to the fact that it was Anders who invented gunpowder. In order to make gunpowder you will need sulphur, saltpeter and charcoal. Anders needed your help to get Drakestone and Sela Petrae. He got charcoal from other sources. That was very ironic moment. I understood it but my Hawke wasn´t very good at chemistry. 

Im not sure if i see the resemblance between these 2. Anders is not creating a war for glory or power but because of an ideal

The idea is that when making all or nothing choices then you should also estimate that what will happen if everything goes wrong. Croesus found that out hard way.

Oh he is flawed alright. And he does have a bit black and white thinking. But he still gets angry at mages who abuse their power. Look at how he rants at Tharone.

I don´t how much of that ranting from Anders is genuine and how much is that he wants the mages to keep in secrecy and to strike when the time is ready. Anders asking for help to gather material for a potion which would allow him and the spirit of Justice to separate. Later it is revealed that Anders lied to you, built a bomb and blew up the chantry. I wouldn´t that a bit black and white thinking.

You do not prevent abominations. You hunt them down and kill them. And the best way to do this is by sending people who can identify them and  who are not suspectible to lyrium bribes. Training some warriors in templar tactics  to aid such a mage is not a bad idea.

The first step is to prevent abominations. That will not be always successful but it should at least reduce the number of abominations when smarter mages know that ultimately demons will hurt them and other people more than demons can help them. I don´t know how much time it will take to train warriors to become mage killers. It should take quite much time and still they should be weaker in that than the real templars because fighting mages is templars´ specialty.

People are driven by morals. And thats the problem with the templar order: they have no morals only zeal.

You are forgetting the self-interest. People´s action is most often defined by both their self-interest and their morals. Any system which would guard mages at Thedas would and should require a credible way to evaluate the morals of the guardsmen. The problem is that it is too much based on the personality of the Knight-Commander. Gregoir was a good at that business when compared to Meredith. The templar order has very little of internal control in Kirkwall. Honest and strict internal control would have put the worst abusers under control or they would have been expelled from the Order.

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders doesn't want a resolution, he doesn't want freedom, he doesn't want justice. Anders wants war. The outcome doesn't matter by the time he destroys the Chantry building in Kirkwall. The mages could just as easily be wiped out in his war, but he doesn't care, to him, death in fighting is prefereable to anything short of absolute victory, and so moves to impose that dichotomy on every other mage in Thedas.

So he just started a war for the lulz then? Because you just stripped him of all motive to start a war. War is not something you consider lightly but in this case i support it. And if the mages are wiped out so be it. But its better to have tried to become free then to never have tried at all.

Anders is no longer sane or rational by Act 3... he's been completely warped by the merge with "Justice" -- but then, so has the spirit.  They've become "Vengeance."  He doesn't start the war for any rational reason.  He rationalizes it with talk of freeing mages and no compromise being possible and blah blah blah, but in truth, it's just about vengeance. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

As for the Templars, really, there should have been an "internal affairs" (Seekers or otherwise) assigned to regularly visit and inspect every Chantry, every Circle, every place that Templars are assigned.

[AlexXIV]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders doesn't want a resolution, he doesn't want freedom, he doesn't want justice. Anders wants war. The outcome doesn't matter by the time he destroys the Chantry building in Kirkwall. The mages could just as easily be wiped out in his war, but he doesn't care, to him, death in fighting is prefereable to anything short of absolute victory, and so moves to impose that dichotomy on every other mage in Thedas.

So he just started a war for the lulz then? Because you just stripped him of all motive to start a war. War is not something you consider lightly but in this case i support it. And if the mages are wiped out so be it. But its better to have tried to become free then to never have tried at all.

Anders is no longer sane or rational by Act 3... he's been completely warped by the merge with "Justice" -- but then, so has the spirit.  They've become "Vengeance."  He doesn't start the war for any rational reason.  He rationalizes it with talk of freeing mages and no compromise being possible and blah blah blah, but in truth, it's just about vengeance. 

I don't think it is vengeance. Why seeking revenge against Elthina of all people? I mean there would be better targets for this kind of motivation. Templars for example. I really think that Justice/Anders think that justice will come from the events that follow his act. He probably blames many mages for submitting to the Chantry/Circles so willingly and thereby allow them to control all their life and hunt down and kill any renegades.

And basically I agree with Anders. Morrigan would also agree btw., and maybe Flemeth too. Probably too. Anyway, this injustice can't be undone without mages everywhere in Thedas revolting against their captors. I don't think Justice, the spirit, cares much about lifes. He cares only about Justice. And if it takes thousands or millions of lifes to achieve justice, then so be it. And Anders is starting to accept this principle.

I think we had a discussion a while ago that every virtue, if you declare it an absolute, more important than anything else, will be corrupted. There is a saying, the highest justice is the highest injustice. Because Justice without mercy and pity is worse than no justice at all.

[Killjoy Cutter]

As I said, Anders is no longer rational or sane.

[AlexXIV]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

As I said, Anders is no longer rational or sane.

Maybe not sane, but quite rational. The simple ratio is action that causes reaction. It is very cold and calculating actually in absence of emotion or a consience that would keep 'sane' people from doing it. I mean it's not stupid what he did, just amorale.

If you think about it, in our society we also have people who make the calls as to what is justice. We base it on democracy or whatever governing body we have. But up on top are the people who decide what is right and what is wrong. And Justice is, as a justice spirit, his own highest instance. There is nobody who can tell a justice spirit what is justice and what is not. Justice spirits are all about justice. They think justice, they speak justice, they act justice.

Like Isabella said, he was an idea in a world of ideas (the Fade). The mistake was that he came to the mortal world, and wouldn't go back to the Fade. For whatever reason. Curiosity maybe. Or sense of duty to spread justice or right wrongs or whatever.

I see Justice more like a force of nature, like a hurricane or a flood. And Anders became a mix up between a mortal and this force. There is not really much casting blame or judging if he was 'sane' or not after the merge. He became something that didn't belong in this world and thus it wreaks havoc.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 novembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[LinksOcarina]

Very fair point, but even in the end he still showed a bit of humanity to himself when he asked Hawke to kill him. It was not something out of defiance either; he didn't say it maliciously but quietly, like he contemplated his fate and realized that yeah, millions are going to die for this war, and I should be one of them because I caused it.

It is kind of poetic honestly, as it adheres to what Justice the spirit would do in this situation, kill himself for the injustice he created down the line.

But once again, Anders fall into something that hes not is almost irrelevant to the long-reaching effects and how people would perceive it. Bioware hit something huge here and I don't think they realize it yet; the fact that this thread is almost seven pages long and contains some of the best conversational value I have seen for or against the actions of a singular character is not only impressive, but proves the point of the article itself: the true value of Anders as a character is not what he did, but how we see it.

And it will make Dragon Age III all the more sweeter when it comes out...

[Realmzmaster]

I agree with AlexXVI. Justice without mercy or compassion is far more of an injustice. Justice/Anders has lost those attributes. It is the lack of these attributes that make for cold killing machines. Compassion and mercy temper judgment.

Self-interest is tempered by morals. Most people will act in their own best interest. If that happens to coincide with other peoples self-interests then that is good for the group. The problem is that self-interest is inherently selfish. We teach morals to help people rise above their need for self-interest and do actions that benefit the entire group even if the individual receives no benefit directly.
The need of the many out weigh the need of the few or the one. Anders in his mind was putting the need of the many for freedom above his need for self preservation. He knew his actions could cause his death.

Unfortunately Justice/Anders was actually being selfish in forcing his action upon others. Some will argue that Meredith started the war, but Justice/Anders knew exactly what he was doing and the probable response. Justice/Anders was going to force justice on the Chantry and all who supported it. If that meant the death of thousands or more that was justified. If that meant mages died at least they died free whether they wanted part in the war or not.

The reason Quanri are seeking technological advancement is because they totally distrust magic on any level to the point they restrict their mages far more than even the Chantry. Most saarebas accept it because that is their role in the Qun.

Exploding powder is a Quanri invention, but the dwarves have their variation on it as seen in Awakenings. The dwarves will run the technological race with the Quanri because dwarves cannot use magic to any great degree. So the Quanri technological advancement will be fleeting at best. The Quanri will still have to find a way to offset the magical advantage of humans and elves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Chantry is not responsible for the lack of technological progress in Thedas. The limitations of a fantasy setting are. The Qunari had a technological advantage in the First Qunari War too, but they haven't advanced much or at all in 300 years either. Anders desire for vengeance was not against Elthina specifically but against the entire Chantry and she was just one part of it. But it honestly didn't matter if she was or not, her death was a means to an end for him. He says that there is no-one he wouldn't kill to see mages free, she could have been a mage revolutionary and he'd still have blown her up if he thought it would get him what he wanted.

The templars are driven by more than just zeal. Bethany's Codex entry if she;'s in the Circle says that most of them are honest people who genuinely believe they are helping make the world better. Ella's letter after saving her implies the same.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Act3 Anders will deceive and use even the most ardently pro-mage Hawke, who is both romancing Anders and dedicated to the cause of freeing mages, in order to get his way and complete his plan to destroy the Kirkwall Chantry.

[LinksOcarina]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Act3 Anders will deceive and use even the most ardently pro-mage Hawke, who is both romancing Anders and dedicated to the cause of freeing mages, in order to get his way and complete his plan to destroy the Kirkwall Chantry.

This just adds another layer to it though in the fact that it shows how far Anders will go to achieve his ambitions. It also adds a personal touch to it, and may make it difficult for a Hawke who is romancing him to stay with him...

[Gervaise]

Anders' actions also made it that much more difficult for the ardant pro-mage freedom Hawke to stay alive. I have never romanced him but my first ever Hawke was a mage who was nearly put off the whole freedom thing because of Anders behaviour. It seemed very hard that a friend Hawke never gets the sort of face off against Justice after calling him out over the potion that a rival Hawke does. This makes it very hard for me to truly analyse Anders because on the friend path he seems at ease with his relationship and never shows any sign of not being in joint control (after Act 2), whereas a rival Hawke sees Justice take over in Act 3 and then Anders return, claiming a memory blank. Or was this yet another piece of subterfuge on his part?

The thing is that the Justice spirit is no longer concerned about the pure ideal of justice but simply justice for mages as seen through Anders eyes. This is very clearly shown if Hawke hands Fenris back to Danarius, which is a monstrous injustice, and yet Anders, alone among the companions so far as I am aware, not only does not object but actually approves of the action. So at this point either Justice no longer cares about justice, or Anders is very much in control. Of course, since you have to be a very nasty Hawke to do this, not many people are going to experience this. So is this relevant to Anders' character at this point or not?

[Plaintiff]

Gervaise wrote...

Pressed the wrong button! .....so the only way to bring down the current system is through war.

However, there is another precedent - that of Sebastian's ancestor who removed a tyrant from power by staging a fast/sit in on the steps of the Chantry and was then asked to rule in his place, even though that is not what he had been trying to achieve. We will never know, if the way of "passive resistance" (Ghandi style) would have worked, since Anders has ensured that is no longer an option.

On the whole I would suggest that bombing a civilian target has never been considered a good way to bring about change.

The Chantry made sure it was never an option. Sebastian's ancestor was a not a mage fighting for mage freedom. Mages are not, and have never been given the opportunity to make their case heard. They get arrested on sight, if not tranquiled or executed.

The Chantry makes it clear that it has no interest in compromise. And why would it compromise? It already holds all the cards. For the mages to be able to broker a new deal, they need leverage.Which they cannot get from inside a gilded cage.

The Chantry is also not a civilian target by any definition of the term. It is the very root of the problem to begin with.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 novembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Mages aren't forced to undergo the Rite of Tranquility to silence dissent. That is an abuse of the intent that only happened in Krikwall.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Yeap -- the Rite of Tranquility was never intended for the way it is being used / ABUSED in Kirkwall.

[Gervaise]

The very fact that there were different factions with the Circles, each advocating a different way forward, would seem to indicate that mages were free to engage in debate within the confines of the Circle and not afraid of the templars trying to silence them. There was also that large mage conference in Cumberland that Wynne was going to attend in Awakening. People seem to forget that Anders despises the senior Circle Mages as much as the Chantry because they collaborate in the current system. The whole thing was originally set up through agreement with mages. And you get the sense that the Libertarians and Uldred were not so bothered about the idea of children being taken away from their parents as the fact that the Circle restricted their ability to experiment with magic and put a limit on their acquisition of power.

What we do not know precisely is what existed before the Circles. It is hinted that mages were restricted into performing very simply magic, such as lighting sacred fires. Were they allowed to live within the community? What happened to mage children then? Were more extravagant displays of magic punishable by imprisonment or death?

We are also told that the Templar order was formerly known as the Inquisition and appeared to be separate from the Chantry but was brought under their jurisdiction when the Circles were set up. What did they originally do? Did they simply hunt down and kill mages who made very obvious use of magic?

It was not impossible to envisage the Chantry agreeing to some form of reform if enough mages wanted it, since the current system was not the first to emerge and was brought about through the peaceful rebellion (albeit small scale) of the mages in Val Royaux. Blowing people up and terrorising them, as Anders and the Resolutionists favour as a tactic, is not the best way to achieve a lasting settlement because it is only going to make people trust you less to keep to it. Total unrestricted freedom for mages is not going to be acceptable to the majority of the population but an open Circle system, where young mages go to be trained but are free to return to their families, would be a possibility provided people feel they can trust mages not to abuse the privilege. I always felt the problem with Anders was not so much his aims but the fact that he had nothing to put in place of the system he wanted to destroy. I generally like to play mages and did not like the Circle system as depicted in Origins, where I felt both the mages and templars were trapped and restricted by it, but realised that simply destroying it without a decent replacement would be disasterous, and this appears to be what has happened.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Anders himself admits that he doesn't know what's right, only that what exists is wrong -- his entire plan is to tear down what exists, with nothing in mind to build in its place.