288 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Mages aren't forced to undergo the Rite of Tranquility to silence dissent. That is an abuse of the intent that only happened in Krikwall.

Because the original purpose of forcing mages to undergo it based on arbitrary judgements of their capability was so much better.

The fact that the Rite of Tranquility happens at all is bad enough.

The Chantry as a whole is entirely responsible for the actions of a single faction within the organization, and the Chantry as a whole should answer for the abuse of the Kirkwall Circle. That no attempt was made to investigate and end the abuse makes them just as complicit as the individuals perpetrating said abuse.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 novembre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Plaintiff]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders himself admits that he doesn't know what's right, only that what exists is wrong -- his entire plan is to tear down what exists, with nothing in mind to build in its place.

And? The current system is extremely easy to abuse and proven to not work. It doesn't matter what you replace it with; almost any other option would be preferable.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Mages aren't forced to undergo the Rite of Tranquility to silence dissent. That is an abuse of the intent that only happened in Krikwall.

Because the original purpose of forcing mages to undergo it based on arbitrary judgements of their capability was so much better.

The fact that the Rite of Tranquility happens at all is bad enough.

The Chantry as a whole is entirely responsible for the actions of a single faction within the organization, and the Chantry as a whole should answer for the abuse of the Kirkwall Circle. That no attempt was made to investigate and end the abuse makes them just as complicit as the individuals perpetrating said abuse.

Should the entire government of Kirkwall have been destroyed for failing to investigate Jevin's corruption?

Plaintiff wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders
himself admits that he doesn't know what's right, only that what exists
is wrong -- his entire plan is to tear down what exists, with nothing
in mind to build in its place.

And? The current system is extremely easy to abuse and proven to not work. It doesn't matter what you replace it with; almost any other option would be preferable.

Uh that's obviously untrue. There are several worse possibilites, some of them even exist in Thedas at the very same time. Tevinter is worse, the Qunari are worse. The chaos of a war is worse. Mages having to fight of uncontrolled hordes of vigilantes trying to kill them is worse.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 19 novembre 2011 - 01:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Should the entire government of Kirkwall have been destroyed for failing to investigate Jevin's corruption?

So far as I can tell, it's pretty terrible. Although the guard was actually able to solve its own problem, thanks to a lack of overly strict institutional loyalty.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Plaintiff wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anders himself admits that he doesn't know what's right, only that what exists is wrong -- his entire plan is to tear down what exists, with nothing in mind to build in its place.

And? The current system is extremely easy to abuse and proven to not work. It doesn't matter what you replace it with; almost any other option would be preferable.

A great many other options would be at least as bad.  Use your imagination...

Anders plunges Thedas into war with no exit strategy, no endgame, no goal.  And no, "unravel what exists now" is not a goal. 

[Plaintiff]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Should the entire government of Kirkwall have been destroyed for failing to investigate Jevin's corruption?

Way to put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I say that the Chantry deserves to be razed to the ground simply for failing to investigate.

There are many, many, many, many, many reasons that, when combined, make the perfect justification for purging it from the face of the earth. The Chantry is a cancer on Thedas that needs to be cleansed with fire.

Uh that's obviously untrue. There are several worse possibilites, some of them even exist in Thedas at the very same time. Tevinter is worse, the Qunari are worse. The chaos of a war is worse. Mages having to fight of uncontrolled hordes of vigilantes trying to kill them is worse.

Please. Our sources about Tevinter are scant at best, the majority of our information comes from an obviously biased amnesiac. All we actually know is that slavery exists there, which, granted, is pretty bad. But every other province is involved in the trade too; they just sell the slaves instead of buying them. At least Tevinter doesn't pretend to be doing its slaves a favour. The mere fact that Tevinter isn't a rotting blightland swarming with abominations is enough to cast doubt on the Chantry's stance against not only Tevinter, but magic and mages in general.

Qunari I'll grant you.

The mages and the Chantry were always at war, the instances of armed combat have merely been few and far between. Unless this particular instance of armed combat lasts literally for the rest of the entire Dragon Age, there's no way it could equal the amount of blood spilled by the various Rites of Annulment over the last few centuries. And even if it did, it would still be preferable to a system where mages are expected to simply roll over and accept wholesale slaughter because some daft crone miles away signed a piece of paper saying it was okay.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 19 novembre 2011 - 01:53 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

There are plenty of entries in the Codex that make it clear what life is like in Tevinter, plus all the evidence we have of slavery from incidents that have nothing to do with Fenris. Never mind all the things that Denarius and his minions do that make it clear that Fenris isn't making crap up.

[TheJediSaint]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And no, "unravel what exists now" is not a goal. 

It is if you're a nihilist, which is arguably what Anders became at the end of the game.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Mages and the Chantry were not at war. Mages in general are not a faction. If you consider them to be so, then you have to blame them all for the abuses of ancient Tevinter. Second, the Right of Annulment has been enacted only 17 times in the better part of a millennium. Even assuming it was the wrong choice every single one of those times, I'm pretty sure the amount of people who are going to be killed over the course of this war is greater than that given the scale of the conflict. The Circle system was far from perfect and obviously in need of reform but it prevented a great deal of bloodshed both of mages and of non mage civilians. Anders has just undone all of that with no better solution in mind, he didn't even expect to see out the war itself. And by the end of the whole thing I imagine the general populace will understand more than ever why the Circles were used, given the amount of destruction it was going to cause.

[Realmzmaster]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There are plenty of entries in the Codex that make it clear what life is like in Tevinter, plus all the evidence we have of slavery from incidents that have nothing to do with Fenris. Never mind all the things that Denarius and his minions do that make it clear that Fenris isn't making crap up.

Hawke also receives a letter from Feynriel that states "Men and women work magic in the streets while their slaves look on. I watched my own master kill a rival
magister in a duel just days ago. Sometimes I look around and think I
understand the templars back in Kirkwall.
"

So there is information in the game that has nothing to do with Fenris.

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Mages and the Chantry were not at war. Mages in general are not a faction. If you consider them to be so, then you have to blame them all for the abuses of ancient Tevinter. Second, the Right of Annulment has been enacted only 17 times in the better part of a millennium. Even assuming it was the wrong choice every single one of those times, I'm pretty sure the amount of people who are going to be killed over the course of this war is greater than that given the scale of the conflict. The Circle system was far from perfect and obviously in need of reform but it prevented a great deal of bloodshed both of mages and of non mage civilians. Anders has just undone all of that with no better solution in mind, he didn't even expect to see out the war itself. And by the end of the whole thing I imagine the general populace will understand more than ever why the Circles were used, given the amount of destruction it was going to cause.

The people killed is because of the collapse of the system. So the system is at fault here not anders as he is just a catalyst. And what the general population thinks is not important. What the nobility thinks is important. Do you think they like a mage-templar war in their backyard? They will blame the chantry for such collosal cluster**** and will demand that the chantry is stripped of its political and military powrs and that the mages will come under the rule of the crown to prevent such war from happening ever again. And since the nobility wants a quick resolution to the war they will try to broker peace between the factions.  Then it becomes  clear that the mages for more reasonable then religous zealots. After a while the nobility will be fed up with that turns against the templars.

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Mages and the Chantry were not at war. Mages in general are not a faction. If you consider them to be so, then you have to blame them all for the abuses of ancient Tevinter. Second, the Right of Annulment has been enacted only 17 times in the better part of a millennium. Even assuming it was the wrong choice every single one of those times, I'm pretty sure the amount of people who are going to be killed over the course of this war is greater than that given the scale of the conflict. The Circle system was far from perfect and obviously in need of reform but it prevented a great deal of bloodshed both of mages and of non mage civilians. Anders has just undone all of that with no better solution in mind, he didn't even expect to see out the war itself. And by the end of the whole thing I imagine the general populace will understand more than ever why the Circles were used, given the amount of destruction it was going to cause.

The people killed is because of the collapse of the system. So the system is at fault here not anders as he is just a catalyst. And what the general population thinks is not important. What the nobility thinks is important. Do you think they like a mage-templar war in their backyard? They will blame the chantry for such collosal cluster**** and will demand that the chantry is stripped of its political and military powrs and that the mages will come under the rule of the crown to prevent such war from happening ever again. And since the nobility wants a quick resolution to the war they will try to broker peace between the factions.  Then it becomes  clear that the mages for more reasonable then religous zealots. After a while the nobility will be fed up with that turns against the templars.

What an... interesting interpretation. 

[LinksOcarina]

Is the sarcasm really necessary?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is the sarcasm really a problem?

[LinksOcarina]

I'm not a huge fan of it personally, if that's what you mean. It stifles conversations too easily...

[Killjoy Cutter]

I really didn't have any other response for the... claim that murdering the innocent, blowing up the a major building of by far the most widely-held faith in Thedas, and firing up a bloody, bitter war will magically make the nobles take up Anders' cause.

[Fylimar]

I didn't read the whole discussion here, I just wanted to say, that the article was great - wether you like Anders or not. And I must agree with the writer, I find it strange, that people seems so surprised, that Anders did what he did in the end when the hints were everywhere (even in Awakening his views were pretty clear)

[Sir JK]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I really didn't have any other response for the... claim that murdering the innocent, blowing up the a major building of by far the most widely-held faith in Thedas, and firing up a bloody, bitter war will magically make the nobles take up Anders' cause.

Not to mention, as Sebastian tangentially touches on, Bann Alfstanna has demonstrated and even Alistair to an extent. The people in the Chantry itself tend to be the Nobility's younger siblings.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sir JK wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I really didn't have any other response for the... claim that murdering the innocent, blowing up the a major building of by far the most widely-held faith in Thedas, and firing up a bloody, bitter war will magically make the nobles take up Anders' cause.

Not to mention, as Sebastian tangentially touches on, Bann Alfstanna has demonstrated and even Alistair to an extent. The people in the Chantry itself tend to be the Nobility's younger siblings.

Good point.  I wonder how many younger siblings and third children of nobles died in that explosion... 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The templars might be largely zealots but I can't imagine they are going to get less respect from the nobility than rouge mages who are going to be almost certainly resorting to blood magic and summoning demons.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The templars might be largely zealots but I can't imagine they are going to get less respect from the nobility than rouge mages who are going to be almost certainly resorting to blood magic and summoning demons.

Then again, we've seen more than a few Templars who would kick down a noble's door in the dark hours on the slightest suspicion of a mage in the family or staff. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And I'm sure they'd hate that, but in general they are going to be more wary of an abomination that would kick down a door to murder everyone inside.

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The templars might be largely zealots but I can't imagine they are going to get less respect from the nobility than rouge mages who are going to be almost certainly resorting to blood magic and summoning demons.

This is not about respect. This is about power. Mages are an invaluable war resource and can make or break empires. Do you not think the royalty sees this as well. But currently this resource is under chantry control. The only thing they need is reason to strip the chantry from this resource. A mage templar war would be excellent opportunity.
Do not think the templars are protected simply because they have some nobility in their ranks. Or have you forgotten the fate of the real world templar order who where wiped simply for gold.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The most likely path for the nobility is to be as divided as the rest of Thedas, depending on individual relationships and judgements. A duke whose daughter was murdered by rogue Templars because she suspected of using magic will likely not choose the same side as a baron whose manor was destroyed by an abomination.

[Realmzmaster]

Mages are an invaluable war resource, but so are templars or people who can counteract the mage's power. Royalty would still need a way to control the mages it employs. Some mages can use mind domination. Royalty will be very careful and would need a check to balance the mages Nobility will be very leery in employing a power it cannot control.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:26 .