288 réponses à ce sujet

[Lynata]

 Alright, here's the opinion of someone who is currently playing a templar in the P&P. 

First off, Anders isn't fighting for the mages, he is fighting for what he thinks the mages should be. This is clearly shown in the very first quest where he murders one of his own simply because she wanted to surrender. It is also this moment where we see that he clearly has issues with being "possessed" by the spirit of Justice who has been corrupted by Anders' own biased point of view. Actually, I think it isn't just Meredith who loses it over the years, it is Anders, too. Both characters start out less extreme and end up being a twisted version of their former self, in the case of Meredith due to the lyrium idol, in the case of Anders his merger with Justice.

Then, as has already been pointed out, Anders has no idea what should happen if the mages actually succeed in their rebellion against the establishment. It is a known fact that mages are threatened both by possession as well as the lure of power. Being unchecked by some kind of authority and the boundaries it enforces can only result in terrible bloodshed amongst the entire population of Thedas, even beyond the direct consequences of the mage-templar-war that will not only see many innocents harmed in the crossfire, but also templar troops being reassigned from protecting travel paths and pilgrim routes to hunt down rogue mages, leaving the unprotected open to attack from various bandits.

The amount of blood mages will increase, as many arcanists relish in the possibility of finally being able to use their "gift" without limitations. Abominations will wreak havoc in the cities and on the countryside, as mages will no longer be forced to endure the Harrowing or the watchful eyes of their templar wardens. Many mages will want to claim command over "lesser" subjects, seeing themselves as superior due to the powers they can summon. Perhaps there is even a real chance for another ancient Tevinter Imperium, with all the atrocities that were committed during its heyday of mage rule. I have certainly seen enough mages in DA2 go bad, the "best" example being Grace who was perfectly willing to kill even those who helped her go free.

"If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant!"
- Knight-Commander Meredith

I think a lot of people only see a minority - the mages - being oppressed. What many do not realize is that this minority is dangerous to themselves and anyone else, both due to the amount of direct power a single mage can wield as well as their high susceptibility to demon possession. So, for the sake of the innocent lives, I can only recite Vulcan logic: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Or, to paraphrase a real life quote from Winston Churchill that I think applies quite well to the current situation: "The Circles are the worst way of dealing with mages. Except for all the others."

In my opinion, the Circles are a successful and necessary system. I'm sure improvements can be made here and there (of which we know the possibility to exist, considering that mages under Chantry rule were originally allowed a lot less than what they can do now), but generally I see no alternative to this level of control. With how magic and the Fade works in this setting, you simply cannot have mages go free and expect everything to remain just fine.

Kirkwall remains the most negative example of a Circle and templar garrison of Thedas, though many mages everywhere are not content with their situation, as we all know. That said, I do not believe this to be the sole fault of Meredith, not even when she was corrupted by the idol. First Enchanter Orsino carries half the blame as well, for the situation in Kirkwall seems to be very much a product of both people's inability to cooperate - Meredith with her paranoia and Orsino with his arrogance. His unwillingness to try and take the first step for conciliation has obviously contributed to the escalation, for even though we do not see much of what happened in the Circle, we know for a fact that he knew of blood mages being loose in the city and not reporting it. He knew that mages under his own jurisdiction were conducting forbidden research, and again he said nothing, instead even keeping the results for himself to study. Finally, his refusal to let the templars search the Circle tower, something that Meredith and her knights would obviously be entitled to, given their role as the mages' watchers, is a very obvious attempt to try to hide the truth, for if he knews the templars wouldn't be able to find something, he could only have profited from dispelling the Knight-Commander's accusations.

Either he knew there would be proof for Meredith's suspicions and feared its discovery, or he was simply too proud to accept Chantry supervision, up to the point of butting heads with the chief overseer. Both reasons would be just as condemnable as Meredith's own failings. Kinloch Hold, the Fereldan Circle of Mages, shows that there is another way, and that coexistence between mages and templars is not only necessary, but can be achieved with a minimum of inconvenience.

Lastly, I noticed a number of people in this thread play down Anders' choice of target, even going so far as claiming that anyone inside the building at the time of its destruction does not count as a "civilian". I can only assume that this includes the orphans, the sick and the elderly that we can see in Chantry care throughout Thedas. Kirkwall's poor will have a lot less to eat in the coming months as well.
Of course it was still the right target for Anders' plan, as destroying it - including the "removal" of the one person in Kirkwall that was able to maintain a good influence and a minimum of control on Meredith - had exactly the effect he desired, much to the chagrin of the mages for whom he claims to fight. I just want to point out that it remains an atrocity.

Modifié par Lynata, 22 novembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Well said, even if I'm less supportive of the Circle system as it existed up until the end of DA2.

[DKJaigen]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Mages are an invaluable war resource, but so are templars or people who can counteract the mage's power. Royalty would still need a way to control the mages it employs. Some mages can use mind domination. Royalty will be very careful and would need a check to balance the mages Nobility will be very leery in employing a power it cannot control.

Only if the templars obey orders. And thats just it, they don't.Since templars obey the law of the maker it makes them unreliable soldiers. If you look at our own history religious military orders been wiped out by their allies for being thorn in the side.

Templars cannot be controlled. So you have to make your own templars. So you need lyrium. And their 2 factions that stand in the way. The chantry and the templars. Wipe the current templars out and strip the chantry of all poltical power and you have not only have warriors with anti-magic ability under control but also the mages. Simply put its more profitable for the nobles to wipe out the templars then the mages.

[DKJaigen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The most likely path for the nobility is to be as divided as the rest of Thedas, depending on individual relationships and judgements. A duke whose daughter was murdered by rogue Templars because she suspected of using magic will likely not choose the same side as a baron whose manor was destroyed by an abomination.

Personal issues aside killjoy. This is about politics and powermongering. I find it strange that the mage-templar war is going on as it is.After all if the templars where joined by the military forces of the other nations why have they not suppressed the mages yet? Are the mages so powerful they can fight not only the templars but also the conventional military at the same time? Unlikely.Right now Thedas is political stable at the beginning of the mage-templar war with no major wars going on  that you drain a nation of its soldiers. So what the hell is going on. Why are the nobles not supporting the templars? So i believe that a game is being played here by the nobles. Or perhaps another faction is involved.

In my opinion, the Circles are a successful and necessary system.

Any system that collapses on itself with no aid from an outside influence is not a success but an epic fail.  Since the templars are the ones in charge of this system i consider the templars to be at fault here.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:06 .

[Lynata]

DKJaigen wrote...
Any system that collapses on itself with no aid from an outside influence is not a success but an epic fail.  Since the templars are the ones in charge of this system i consider the templars to be at fault here.

A more accurate judgment might be that any system is vulnerable to human arrogance and stupidity. From both sides.
And let's not forget that this system is only in place because the one the mages set up before was the epic fail.

I'd also like to point out that no-one has ever provided an answer to Meredith's question. Still. 

DKJaigen wrote...
Only if the templars obey orders. And thats just it, they don't.Since templars obey the law of the maker it makes them unreliable soldiers.

Actually, that's what the Seekers are for. And the Reverend Mother to whom the local Knight-Commander is subordinate. And, as an "emergency backup", the lyrium addiction, whose satiation is also controlled by the Chantry, which, though probably not without its flaws itself (though we have yet to see them - but I am basing this on a real life comparison to existing faiths and organized worship), is a rather charitable and good-natured bunch of people.

Just because the system broke down in one place because (a) the Reverend Mother was assassinated and ( the Seekers took their sweet time to arrive there and © the Knight-Commander was corrupted by outside supernatural influence doesn't make the entire system condemnable. What other safeguards could you possibly want? What other safeguards are even possible?

Ironically, the only templars who did not follow orders were the ones trying to help the mages and/or stop the Knight-Commander as she turns crazy. The ones who are all RAWR KILL THE MAGES write their petitions and have them rejected. By Meredith herself, by the way.

Modifié par Lynata, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

DKJaigen wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The templars might be largely zealots but I can't imagine they are going to get less respect from the nobility than rouge mages who are going to be almost certainly resorting to blood magic and summoning demons.

This is not about respect. This is about power. Mages are an invaluable war resource and can make or break empires. Do you not think the royalty sees this as well. But currently this resource is under chantry control. The only thing they need is reason to strip the chantry from this resource. A mage templar war would be excellent opportunity.
Do not think the templars are protected simply because they have some nobility in their ranks. Or have you forgotten the fate of the real world templar order who where wiped simply for gold.

Mages are unpredictable and dangerous. Thedan nobles will not be able to rely on them en masse unless they establish a system of control similar to the Circles, and by most mage supporters' admission, the mage rebellion genreally will not tolerate going back to anything like that.

[Plaintiff]

[quote]Lynata wrote...

 Alright, here's the opinion of someone who is currently playing a templar in the P&P. 

First off, Anders isn't fighting for the mages, he is fighting for what he thinks the mages should be. This is clearly shown in the very first quest where he murders one of his own simply because she wanted to surrender.[/quote]
Um... what?
 



[quote]It is also this moment where we see that he clearly has issues with being "possessed" by the spirit of Justice who has been corrupted by Anders' own biased point of view. Actually, I think it isn't just Meredith who loses it over the years, it is Anders, too. Both characters start out less extreme and end up being a twisted version of their former self, in the case of Meredith due to the lyrium idol, in the case of Anders his merger with Justice.[/quote]
Justice is the one who has issues, not Anders. In Awakening he took Anders to task for keeping a pet, referring to Ser Pounce-A-Lot as a slave. It is also explicitly stated in DA2 that Justice saw the injustice of the Circle system and willingly merged with Anders in order to combat it because his moral code does not allow him to ignore it. Meredith was always insane. The idol didn't make her crazy, it just gave her powers.




[quote]Then, as has already been pointed out, Anders has no idea what should happen if the mages actually succeed in their rebellion against the establishment. It is a known fact that mages are threatened both by possession as well as the lure of power.[/quote]
Ridiculous generalisations FTL.




[quote]Being unchecked by some kind of authority and the boundaries it enforces can only result in terrible bloodshed amongst the entire population of Thedas, even beyond the direct consequences of the mage-templar-war that will not only see many innocents harmed in the crossfire, but also templar troops being reassigned from protecting travel paths and pilgrim routes to hunt down rogue mages, leaving the unprotected open to attack from various bandits.[/quote]
Who says the mages will be unchecked? In order to organize a war effort they have to elect leaders to represent them. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose that mages are unable to police themselves. Also, who the **** ever said that Templars protect travel paths and pilgrim routes? Those may have been functions of actual Templars, but there is no indication that the fictional templars of Thedas have any purpose beyond hunting and policing mages.




[quote]The amount of blood mages will increase, as many arcanists relish in the possibility of finally being able to use their "gift" without limitations. Abominations will wreak havoc in the cities and on the countryside, as mages will no longer be forced to endure the Harrowing or the watchful eyes of their templar wardens. Many mages will want to claim command over "lesser" subjects, seeing themselves as superior due to the powers they can summon. Perhaps there is even a real chance for another ancient Tevinter Imperium, with all the atrocities that were committed during its heyday of mage rule. I have certainly seen enough mages in DA2 go bad, the "best" example being Grace who was perfectly willing to kill even those who helped her go free.[/quote]
And templars, cut off from their lyrium supply, will turn into delusional gibbering wrecks and the ones with a predisposition to violence and sexual assault will turn on innocent townspeople just because. Many templars will want to claim command over "heathen" subjects, seeing themselves as superior due to their status as soldiers of the Maker. There is even a real chance for another Kirkwall Circle, with all the abuse and rape inherent to the old system. I have certainly seen enough Templars who abuse their position, the best example being Meredith, who assumes defacto control of the city of Kirkwall, in clear contravention of Chantry law and the wishes of the populace.

[quote]"If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant!"
- Knight-Commander Meredith[/quote]
I can tell you plenty, and they all start with getting rid of the Chantry.

[quote]I think a lot of people only see a minority - the mages - being oppressed. What many do not realize is that this minority is dangerous to themselves and anyone else, both due to the amount of direct power a single mage can wield as well as their high susceptibility to demon possession. So, for the sake of the innocent lives, I can only recite Vulcan logic: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Or, to paraphrase a real life quote from Winston Churchill that I think applies quite well to the current situation: "The Circles are the worst way of dealing with mages. Except for all the others."[/quote]
Because mages don't count as innocents? There are plenty of viable options for Circle reform that pro-templar posters refuse to acknowledge.




[quote]In my opinion, the Circles are a successful and necessary system.[/quote]
Except not, because they failed.




[quote]I'm sure improvements can be made here and there (of which we know the possibility to exist, considering that mages under Chantry rule were originally allowed a lot less than what they can do now), but generally I see no alternative to this level of control. With how magic and the Fade works in this setting, you simply cannot have mages go free and expect everything to remain just fine.[/quote]
The Chantry shouldn't be allowed any measure of control over the Circles. You wouldn't put the welfare of a black family in the hands of the KKK.




[quote]Kirkwall remains the most negative example of a Circle and templar garrison of Thedas, though many mages everywhere are not content with their situation, as we all know. That said, I do not believe this to be the sole fault of Meredith, not even when she was corrupted by the idol. First Enchanter Orsino carries half the blame as well, for the situation in Kirkwall seems to be very much a product of both people's inability to cooperate - Meredith with her paranoia and Orsino with his arrogance. His unwillingness to try and take the first step for conciliation has obviously contributed to the escalation, for even though we do not see much of what happened in the Circle, we know for a fact that he knew of blood mages being loose in the city and not reporting it. He knew that mages under his own jurisdiction were conducting forbidden research, and again he said nothing, instead even keeping the results for himself to study. Finally, his refusal to let the templars search the Circle tower, something that Meredith and her knights would obviously be entitled to, given their role as the mages' watchers, is a very obvious attempt to try to hide the truth, for if he knews the templars wouldn't be able to find something, he could only have profited from dispelling the Knight-Commander's accusations.[/quote]
You forgot Elthina, whose complacency and negligence allowed the situation to deterioate to the point where there could be no peaceful resolution.




[quote]Either he knew there would be proof for Meredith's suspicions and feared its discovery, or he was simply too proud to accept Chantry supervision, up to the point of butting heads with the chief overseer. Both reasons would be just as condemnable as Meredith's own failings. Kinloch Hold, the Fereldan Circle of Mages, shows that there is another way, and that coexistence between mages and templars is not only necessary, but can be achieved with a minimum of inconvenience.[/quote]
Kinloch Hold has the same major failings as every other Circle. If the mages there were satisfied with their living condition, Uldred would never have had an opening to incite rebellion. Even the highly religious and traditionalist Wynne has her grievances; namely the loss of her son and the way her pupil, Aneirin was treated.

[quote]Lastly, I noticed a number of people in this thread play down Anders' choice of target, even going so far as claiming that anyone inside the building at the time of its destruction does not count as a "civilian". I can only assume that this includes the orphans, the sick and the elderly that we can see in Chantry care throughout Thedas. Kirkwall's poor will have a lot less to eat in the coming months as well.
Of course it was still the right target for Anders' plan, as destroying it - including the "removal" of the one person in Kirkwall that was able to maintain a good influence and a minimum of control on Meredith - had exactly the effect he desired, much to the chagrin of the mages for whom he claims to fight. I just want to point out that it remains an atrocity.[/quote]
There are no orphans, sick or elderly in the Kirkwall Chantry. Not now, not ever. You know where they are? In Lowtown and Darktown. You know who takes care of them? Anders. In his clinic. By himself. The Chantry doesn't even assist his effort. In fact, it does the exact opposite, sending templars down there to harrass him.

Elthina was not a good influence on Kirkwall, she didn't exercise control over Meredith, she didn't fix the issues. All she did was sweep them under the rug. Sending Orsino and Meredith back to the Gallows doesn't make the problem go away, it just hides it from the public eye. Elthina had much more than a "minimum" of control over Meredith and the templars; she simply chose not to exercise it. She could've had Alrik booted when it became obvious that he was a nutbag, she could've had Meredith transferred out and brought in a Knight-Commander who wasn't insane. She could've done anything other than what she actually did, which was cram her fingers and go LA LA LA LA LAAA.

I wish there was a dialogue option to sift through the rubble and find her corpse so I could ****** on it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2011 - 09:52 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

In my opinion, the Circles are a successful and necessary system.

Any system that collapses on itself with no aid from an outside influence is not a success but an epic fail.  Since the templars are the ones in charge of this system i consider the templars to be at fault here.

You know of course that the system only collapsed with the outside help of Anders, right?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Chantry in Kirkwall took care of the sick and the poor, which is revealed if you ever listen to what any of the priestesses talk about. What they DON'T do is wander into Darktown, simply becasue it is too damn dangerous for a priestess to travel around there, without an armed escort.

[DKJaigen]

Lynata wrote...
 more accurate judgment might be that any system is vulnerable to human arrogance and stupidity. From both sides.

Humans are not robots, If the system cannot tolerate human emotion  then its still a failure of a system.

And let's not forget that this system is only in place because the one the mages set up before was the epic fail.

You mean the tevinter imperium? The same imperium that saved the whole of humanity by batteling the darkspawn for hundreds of years? They collapsed because of outside pressure not because they broke down on their own.
They are bunch of nasty son-of-****es but at least they get **** done.

I'd also like to point out that no-one has ever provided an answer to Meredith's question. Still. 

Plenty start with removing the templars and put the mages on a secular path. It can only improve from there.

Just because the system broke down in one place because (a) the Reverend Mother was assassinated and ( the Seekers took their sweet time to arrive there and © the Knight-Commander was corrupted by outside supernatural influence doesn't make the entire system condemnable. What other safeguards could you possibly want? What other safeguards are even possible?

Soldiers with morals. FFS only cullen weakly protested the annulment. Simply put the chantry does not promote morals just blind zealotry. And if you have been paying attention the system didnt broke down just in kirkwall. It broke down everywhere.

Ironically, the only templars who did not follow orders were the ones trying to help the mages and/or stop the Knight-Commander as she turns crazy. The ones who are all RAWR KILL THE MAGES write their petitions and have them rejected. By Meredith herself, by the way.

Yeah thats why meredith pertitions for right for annulment from divine before the chantry bombing.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:02 .

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry in Kirkwall took care of the sick and the poor, which is revealed if you ever listen to what any of the priestesses talk about. What they DON'T do is wander into Darktown, simply becasue it is too damn dangerous for a priestess to travel around there, without an armed escort.

So did the naz-i's btw. Simply put like the ****'s the bad far outweighs the good.

You know of course that the system only collapsed with the outside help of Anders, right?

Anders is part of the system. Even if he rebels against it.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 22 novembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Plaintiff]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry in Kirkwall took care of the sick and the poor, which is revealed if you ever listen to what any of the priestesses talk about. What they DON'T do is wander into Darktown, simply becasue it is too damn dangerous for a priestess to travel around there, without an armed escort.

Saying you do something is not the same thing as actually doing it. When Bioware releases DLC that shows the secret room that the Kirkwall Chantry stashes all its less fortunates in, I'll change my tune.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry in Kirkwall took care of the sick and the poor, which is revealed if you ever listen to what any of the priestesses talk about. What they DON'T do is wander into Darktown, simply becasue it is too damn dangerous for a priestess to travel around there, without an armed escort.

So did the naz-i's btw. Simply put like the ****'s the bad far outweighs the good.

..... What? I didn't even.... What?

DKJaigen wrote...

You know of course that the system only collapsed with the outside help of Anders, right?

Anders is part of the system. Even if he rebels against it.

He is a symptom of the system perhaps, but he is not a part of it, since the Circle did not control him.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..... What? I didn't even.... What?

You dont understand what im saying do you?

He is a symptom of the system perhaps, but he is not a part of it, since the Circle did not control him.

The circle created him. And he is a part of it because the chantry tries to control him.

[heiveldboy]

Lynata wrote...

 Alright, here's the opinion of someone who is currently playing a templar in the P&P. 

First off, Anders isn't fighting for the mages, he is fighting for what he thinks the mages should be. This is clearly shown in the very first quest where he murders one of his own simply because she wanted to surrender. It is also this moment where we see that he clearly has issues with being "possessed" by the spirit of Justice who has been corrupted by Anders' own biased point of view. Actually, I think it isn't just Meredith who loses it over the years, it is Anders, too. Both characters start out less extreme and end up being a twisted version of their former self, in the case of Meredith due to the lyrium idol, in the case of Anders his merger with Justice.

Well, fact is that many mages think what he thinks, and what quest are you talking about? The quest to save Karl? He begged to be killed, as he saw being tranquil as a fate being worse than death. Ella? Anders didn't want to kill her, The Justice part in him wants to and you do have the change to save her, where he regains his control before killing her and almost cries. And everybody, including Anders, knows he's an abomination... and yes both are lunatics and both do actions that influence the others... it's an endless circle...

Then, as has already been pointed out, Anders has no idea what should happen if the mages actually succeed in their rebellion against the establishment. It is a known fact that mages are threatened both by possession as well as the lure of power. Being unchecked by some kind of authority and the boundaries it enforces can only result in terrible bloodshed amongst the entire population of Thedas, even beyond the direct consequences of the mage-templar-war that will not only see many innocents harmed in the crossfire, but also templar troops being reassigned from protecting travel paths and pilgrim routes to hunt down rogue mages, leaving the unprotected open to attack from various bandits.

Well ironically, the mage-templar war started because of the templars being the 'guards' of the mages. Besides there is a difference between Kirkwall and the other circles, like Ferelden. In Ferelden we see how Gregoir and Irving work together and discuss everything. Sure, they might be harsh for each other, but they do care and respect each other (shown when Gregoir says that it's good to see Irving back if you save him). In Kirkwall however, it's a fate worse than slavery and to some even worse than death. Templars abuse their rights whenever they want to (who's going to stop them?) and see the mages as something less than an animal or 'robes' (kinda like the dwarves see the casteless).
And the templars don't protect travel paths and pilgrim routes... What evidence do you have for this?

The amount of blood mages will increase, as many arcanists relish in the possibility of finally being able to use their "gift" without limitations. Abominations will wreak havoc in the cities and on the countryside, as mages will no longer be forced to endure the Harrowing or the watchful eyes of their templar wardens. Many mages will want to claim command over "lesser" subjects, seeing themselves as superior due to the powers they can summon. Perhaps there is even a real chance for another ancient Tevinter Imperium, with all the atrocities that were committed during its heyday of mage rule. I have certainly seen enough mages in DA2 go bad, the "best" example being Grace who was perfectly willing to kill even those who helped her go free.

Same goes for everyone else really...

"If you cannot tell me another way, do not brand me a tyrant!"
- Knight-Commander Meredith

Well how about you throw away that blasted sword and stop whining about your sister and treat the mages with a bit humanity and respect! That'll help a lot... oh and let the nobility rule the city

I think a lot of people only see a minority - the mages - being oppressed. What many do not realize is that this minority is dangerous to themselves and anyone else, both due to the amount of direct power a single mage can wield as well as their high susceptibility to demon possession. So, for the sake of the innocent lives, I can only recite Vulcan logic: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."
Or, to paraphrase a real life quote from Winston Churchill that I think applies quite well to the current situation: "The Circles are the worst way of dealing with mages. Except for all the others."

Everybody is potentially dangerous: the templars are dangerous, the carta is dangerous, the slavers are dangerous, Hawke is dangerous... the only difference between these groups and the mages is that they have to do more effort and are hated by the crowd for something others did ages ago.

In my opinion, the Circles are a successful and necessary system. I'm sure improvements can be made here and there (of which we know the possibility to exist, considering that mages under Chantry rule were originally allowed a lot less than what they can do now), but generally I see no alternative to this level of control. With how magic and the Fade works in this setting, you simply cannot have mages go free and expect everything to remain just fine.

No but you cannot chain them and expect nothing to go wrong as well. We're talking about LIVING things: humans, elves, ... They are the same as the others (except for magic but everybody has his own talents), but are treated differently? where's the logic in that?

Kirkwall remains the most negative example of a Circle and templar garrison of Thedas, though many mages everywhere are not content with their situation, as we all know. That said, I do not believe this to be the sole fault of Meredith, not even when she was corrupted by the idol. First Enchanter Orsino carries half the blame as well, for the situation in Kirkwall seems to be very much a product of both people's inability to cooperate - Meredith with her paranoia and Orsino with his arrogance. His unwillingness to try and take the first step for conciliation has obviously contributed to the escalation, for even though we do not see much of what happened in the Circle, we know for a fact that he knew of blood mages being loose in the city and not reporting it. He knew that mages under his own jurisdiction were conducting forbidden research, and again he said nothing, instead even keeping the results for himself to study. Finally, his refusal to let the templars search the Circle tower, something that Meredith and her knights would obviously be entitled to, given their role as the mages' watchers, is a very obvious attempt to try to hide the truth, for if he knews the templars wouldn't be able to find something, he could only have profited from dispelling the Knight-Commander's accusations.

You have to remember that Orsino feared that Meredith was going to invoke the right of annulment and that whatever she would see would be condemning anyway. Even if she could not find any blood magic she would say something like: there IS blood magic here, my word is more than enough proof or everybody except me are blood thralls,die die die! At that time she was already long gone and would have killed the mages anyway. And you forget that the templars are not allowed to make decisions in the circle: as far as I know the first enchanter has the last word in what happens in the circle, the templars merely watch and advise (Gregoir's words). Meredith had no evidence of blood mages living in the circle and Orsino had every right to turn her down. Yes he knows about the blood mages and yes it's stupid of him to not say this, but to whom could he? Meredith? She would kill them all, starting with him. Elthina? She would go to Meredith. The guard? same story

Either he knew there would be proof for Meredith's suspicions and feared its discovery, or he was simply too proud to accept Chantry supervision, up to the point of butting heads with the chief overseer. Both reasons would be just as condemnable as Meredith's own failings. Kinloch Hold, the Fereldan Circle of Mages, shows that there is another way, and that coexistence between mages and templars is not only necessary, but can be achieved with a minimum of inconvenience.

In the Fereldan circle of Magi works very well with the templars because the templars don't kill them or make them tranquil for the smallest of crimes. The Kirkwall Circle of Magi was being abused by the templars and mages were made tranquil for the slightest of crimes, while tranquility was used as a last resort, not the first way of punishing mages. Not to mention that many templars didn't see mages and people but as mere tools, which was shown in their interactions and in both groups' behavior

Lastly, I noticed a number of people in this thread play down Anders' choice of target, even going so far as claiming that anyone inside the building at the time of its destruction does not count as a "civilian". I can only assume that this includes the orphans, the sick and the elderly that we can see in Chantry care throughout Thedas. Kirkwall's poor will have a lot less to eat in the coming months as well.
Of course it was still the right target for Anders' plan, as destroying it - including the "removal" of the one person in Kirkwall that was able to maintain a good influence and a minimum of control on Meredith - had exactly the effect he desired, much to the chagrin of the mages for whom he claims to fight. I just want to point out that it remains an atrocity.

What orphans? What sick? What elderly? I have seen none of those in the chantry and every time I went to Lowtown random people there said that nobody gave a ****** about them. I'm more willing to believe the people who actually suffer and have no money than some priests who only gossip about those things.
Elthina had control over Meredith for the time being. It would have only been a matter of time before Meredith would claim Elthina would be a blood mage's thrall. Besides Elthina isn't supposed to have 'a minimum control on Meredith'. Elthina is supposed to be in charge. Meredith HAS to listen to Elthina, as Elthina is Meredith's superior( which is the only reason for her listening to Elthina in the first place) She saw how Meredith was and should have requested a transfer years ago

Modifié par heiveldboy, 22 novembre 2011 - 01:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

..... What? I didn't even.... What?

You dont understand what im saying do you?

You are comparing the Chantry with **** Germany. Which is utterly ridiculous.

DKJaigen wrote...

He is a symptom of the system perhaps, but he is not a part of it, since the Circle did not control him.

The circle created him. And he is a part of it because the chantry tries to control him.

No they didn't. He became like he his, because of his own inability to accept the system in place. Again, the Circle may be the cause for Anders to be as he is, but tehy aren't his creators, or his controllers, and therefore, he in an outsider.

[Killjoy Cutter]

DKJaigen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The most likely path for the nobility is to be as divided as the rest of Thedas, depending on individual relationships and judgements. A duke whose daughter was murdered by rogue Templars because she suspected of using magic will likely not choose the same side as a baron whose manor was destroyed by an abomination.

Personal issues aside killjoy. This is about politics and powermongering. I find it strange that the mage-templar war is going on as it is.After all if the templars where joined by the military forces of the other nations why have they not suppressed the mages yet? Are the mages so powerful they can fight not only the templars but also the conventional military at the same time? Unlikely.Right now Thedas is political stable at the beginning of the mage-templar war with no major wars going on  that you drain a nation of its soldiers. So what the hell is going on. Why are the nobles not supporting the templars? So i believe that a game is being played here by the nobles. Or perhaps another faction is involved.

In my opinion, the Circles are a successful and necessary system.

Any system that collapses on itself with no aid from an outside influence is not a success but an epic fail.  Since the templars are the ones in charge of this system i consider the templars to be at fault here.

I did not say that about the Circles... who did?


As for what the militaries are up to, well, at least in some states, they're likely as divided as everyone else, with some on each side and others just trying to keep the peace or stay out of the way.  The mages and templars have, as a whole, both gone rogue. 

[DKJaigen]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You are comparing the Chantry with **** Germany. Which is utterly ridiculous.
[/quote]


Your still not getting it

[quote]

The circle created him. And he is a part of it because the chantry tries to control him. [/quote]
No they didn't. He became like he his, because of his own inability to accept the system in place. Again, the Circle may be the cause for Anders to be as he is, but tehy aren't his creators, or his controllers, and therefore, he in an outsider.
[/quote]

He is an creation of the system and the kirkwall chantry bombig occurs because he is part of the system.

[Lynata]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Um... what?[/quote]Heiveldboy reminded me of the correct name - Ella. I actually did not realize I had the chance to save her, though that does not change anything about Anders' actions. He killed her because he thinks it's better to die than living as a Tranquil. Way to go deciding other people's fate. Isn't that the kind of oppression he claims to fight against? He's a hypocrite, plain and simple.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Justice is the one who has issues, not Anders.[/quote]They've merged into the same person now, so I will be judging them as one, just like people judge Meredith after her corruption by the idol.

If Justice had not been "corrupted" by Anders PoV, he might see his actions as the injustice they were, given how many innocent people have suffered and will suffer because of the bomb. It all depends on one's perspective.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Meredith was always insane. The idol didn't make her crazy, it just gave her powers.[/quote]I disagree. It was Meredith who rejected the Tranquil Solution, which she would not have done if she has already been on the trip she was later. We've seen what the idol did to others, we know for a fact that it corrupts people for it does so to both Bartrand and Varric. To assume that Meredith was exempt from this just because you prefer to see her as insane by default to strengthen your argument is pretty weak, imo.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Ridiculous generalisations FTL.[/quote]What, are you saying that mages do not suffer a higher risk of being possessed, and that power is unable to corrupt?

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Who says the mages will be unchecked? In order to organize a war effort they have to elect leaders to represent them. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose that mages are unable to police themselves.[/quote]Because we have not seen how this works out with groups of Apostates travelling the countryside in DA2, right? Oh wait, we did. They turned into blood mages!

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Also, who the **** ever said that Templars protect travel paths and pilgrim routes? Those may have been functions of actual Templars, but there is no indication that the fictional templars of Thedas have any purpose beyond hunting and policing mages.[/quote][quote]heiveldboy wrote...
And the templars don't protect travel paths and pilgrim routes... What evidence do you have for this?[/quote]I suggest both of you play DA:O again (particularly the Lothering part), and maybe take a look at the Dragon Age P&P books (of which Set 2 deals with the Templar Order). We have seen templars protecting Blight refugees from bandits and highwaymen, and we have descriptions of templars hunting down Chasind raiders. Templars also participate in the Exalted Marches, although it should be pointed out that the effects of these crusades can be positive (repelling the Qunari invasion) as well as negative (expedition against the Dalish).

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
And templars, cut off from their lyrium supply, will turn into delusional gibbering wrecks and the ones with a predisposition to violence and sexual assault will turn on innocent townspeople just because. Many templars will want to claim command over "heathen" subjects, seeing themselves as superior due to their status as soldiers of the Maker. There is even a real chance for another Kirkwall Circle, with all the abuse and rape inherent to the old system. I have certainly seen enough Templars who abuse their position, the best example being Meredith, who assumes defacto control of the city of Kirkwall, in clear contravention of Chantry law and the wishes of the populace.[/quote]Yes. However, what you are unfortunately missing is that it's way easier for someone to deal with a templar than with a mage. A corrupt templar/guardsman/noble/whatever (which are all positions that come with a certain amount of tempting power over others) can be arrested or disposed of with comparative ease simply because, in the end, they are ordinary humans who may, at best, know how to wield a sword. A mage, however, can summon demons, burn the face off your head and blow your house up. As we have seen.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
I can tell you plenty, and they all start with getting rid of the Chantry.[/quote][quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Plenty start with removing the templars and put the mages on a secular path. It can only improve from there.[/quote]Way to go thinking like Anders. Which is exactly what I have criticized - people just don't know what should happen after the mages are free. They protest without being able to present a better solution.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Because mages don't count as innocents? There are plenty of viable options for Circle reform that pro-templar posters refuse to acknowledge.[/quote]Then name one instead of only claiming it? And yes, mages as a group do count as innocents, but they are quite simply a far smaller number than the lives you'd risk when letting them loose.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Except not, because they failed.[/quote]With that kind of thinking mankind would still be living in caves because fire has the potential to burn stuff down.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
The Chantry shouldn't be allowed any measure of control over the Circles. You wouldn't put the welfare of a black family in the hands of the KKK.[/quote][quote]DKJaigen wrote...
So did the naz-i's btw. Simply put like the ****'s the bad far outweighs the good[/quote]Do mage-supporters always revert to n*zi and KKK comparisons to back up their argument here? At the same time the Tevinter Magocracy and its atrocities are apologized for "getting **** done", much like a certain nation before losing WW2. Oh, the irony.

In spite of the general anti-mage bias propagated by the Chantry, it remains the one organization best suited for this task, as it acts like Thedas' "United Nations" in that it considers itself above wordly politics (although enjoying to dabble in it to further its own agenda). Any government or group of nobles that would be in the position of the Chantry would force mages into becoming tools of war to fight in their petty squabbles and escalate the scale of warfare, as is the case with the Qunari. And the mages themselves are obviously incapable of governing themselves, for this would either lead to another Tevinter magocracy or incorporate a similar level of control that would only end up in mages fighting mages instead of templars.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Kinloch Hold has the same major failings as every other Circle. If the mages there were satisfied with their living condition, Uldred would never have had an opening to incite rebellion. Even the highly religious and traditionalist Wynne has her grievances; namely the loss of her son and the way her pupil, Aneirin was treated.[/quote]Can you point out these major failings? Unless you consider the standard level of control to be one, although I remain adamant in my judgment of it being an inconvenient but tolerable measure. Uldred - who resorted to blood magic in the course of his little rebellion - only proves how mages can be corrupted. One could even say that Ser Greagoir was maybe too lenient, else it would not have come to this situation. As far as Aneirin is concerned, deserting the Tower renders people Apostates and subject to templar pursuit. Not only are you dismissing that this rogue mage was fully aware of the consequences of an action he chose himself, but also Wynne's own responsibility as his tutor. In fact, she blames herself that he ran.

I'll give you Wynne's son, this is an area where the Circles could probably be improved. It makes a lot of sense that the mages in a Circle are separated from their off-site families, but I don't see any reason why a child born within the Circle should not remain in his parents' care.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
There are no orphans, sick or elderly in the Kirkwall Chantry. Not now, not ever.[/quote]It's what the Chantry does. Information like that is widely accessible in the games, even if a visual representation is missing. As EmperorSahlertz pointed out, the dialogue is there.

What's ironic is that Anders Disapproves of you donating injury kits and poultrices to the Chantry in DA:O. Only goes to show how little he cares for ordinary people in Origins already.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Humans are not robots, If the system cannot tolerate human emotion  then its still a failure of a system.[/quote]Which is a factor able to sabotage any system. As I said, the Circles are not a nice necessity, but they are still the best way to deal with the problem.

If you think that all systems susceptible to human emotion should be removed, try living in a world without governments and without police protection, amongst many other things.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Simply put the chantry does not promote morals just blind zealotry. And
if you have been paying attention the system didnt broke down just in
kirkwall. It broke down everywhere.[/quote]I disagree on both points. We have no reason to assume that other Circles beyond Kirkwall had mages in a similarly bad situation - in fact, it is said in the game itself that the Kirkwall Circle is the worst of them. As for the Chantry not promoting morals, I'd point you to the Chant of Light and the various good deeds done by Chantry members.

[quote]DKJaigen wrote...
Yeah thats why meredith pertitions for right for annulment from divine before the chantry bombing.[/quote]See? She petitions, she doesn't just go for it. It proves my point about following orders.
I was referring to the "Tranquil Solution", though, which was rejected by (amongst others) Meredith herself in the years before she was corrupted by the idol and went mad.

Even Anders was quite surprised to learn this, obviously having misjudged the Chantry/Templar Order and its supposed evil nature. After having murdered the templars to gain the "evidence" that only ended up proving him wrong.

[quote]heiveldboy wrote...
No but you cannot chain them and expect nothing to go wrong as well.
We're talking about LIVING things: humans, elves, ... They are the same
as the others (except for magic but everybody has his own talents), but
are treated differently? where's the logic in that?[/quote]That's just it, they are not the same. Magic isn't just some talent like being able to wield a sword or being good with words, it's something that gives a single person the power to wipe out an entire village on his own. And that's before we even include the increased danger of daemonic possession! The term "curse" may sound like a stigma, but that's exactly what it is. I am quite sure a lot of mages that ended up getting abominized and killing their own family would have preferred being born normal. The world doesn't need magic. The world would be a better place without it. Blights and abominations are quite simply too high a price to pay for the convenience of healing magic and fancy light spells.

[quote]heiveldboy wrote...
You have to remember that Orsino feared that Meredith was going to invoke the right of annulment and that whatever she would see would be condemning anyway.[/quote]Yes. At that point. What I am suggesting is that Meredith may not have been as hard on the mages if the latter did not try to undermine her authority and sabotage the templars' duties all the time by smuggling people out of the Tower, hiding blood mages and instilling unrest on the streets. In short: if Orsino and Meredith would have cooperated like Irving and Greagoire, the Kirkwall Circle would have looked a lot better. This way, however, neither Meredith nor Orsino was willing to see the other side and try to find a compromise - a possibility that was finally removed for good when Anders forced them to escalate a stalemate that seems to have been a cold war between the two for years. Neither was able to work with the other, and as a result, everyone suffered.

[quote]heiveldboy wrote...
And you forget that the templars are not allowed to make decisions in the circle: as far as I know the first enchanter has the last word in what happens in the circle, the templars merely watch and advise (Gregoir's words).[/quote]"Watching" includes the right to search the tower. If the templars suspect one of the residents is secretly researching blood magic, do you really believe they'd have to stop at the door?

Modifié par Lynata, 22 novembre 2011 - 04:21 .

[heiveldboy]

I suggest both of you play DA:O again (particularly the Lothering part), and maybe take a look at the Dragon Age P&P books (of which Set 2 deals with the Templar Order). We have seen templars protecting Blight refugees from bandits and highwaymen, and we have descriptions of templars hunting down Chasind raiders. Templars also participate in the Exalted Marches, although it should be pointed out that the effects of these crusades can be positive (repelling the Qunari invasion) as well as negative (expedition against the Dalish).

Lothering was a special circumstance, because it would have been overrun by the darkspawn and because the bann and his army abandoned Lothering. If the bann had remained, than the templars would have done their normal work. But I haven't read any of the books so I cannot judge about that..

"Watching" includes the right to search the tower. If the templars suspect one of the residents is secretly researching blood magic, do you really believe they'd have to stop at the door?

They need proof before they're allowed to search said person or place and Meredith did not have any (otherwise she would have shown it). This is shown when you confront Irving about Jowan being made tranquil where he said that Gregoir has eye witnesses who saw Jowan practice.
Another thing I want to mention is that you said that Orsino was bothering Meredith's work all the time and that she wouldn't have been so hard on the mages if he didn't. Well, I don't believe this is true: Meredith was too far gone at the time and would always find an excuse to kill a mage, and another to kill another mage and ... She was corrupted by the idol (I do agree with you on this, because she was actually a good templar(if a bit harsh), before the idol), which strengthed her beliefs about the mages and at that point she believed that EVERY mage was bad (including Anders, including Orsino and including Hawke if he is one).
Orsino did what he's supposed to do however. He was supposed to protect the circle from any form of harm. However by that time he was more concerned about keeping Meredith at bay and was willing to overlook the occasional blood mage.
Neither side was right and neither side was wrong, both sides were idiots who didn't want to listen to each other

That's just it, they are not the same. Magic isn't just some talent like being able to wield a sword or being good with words, it's something that gives a single person the power to wipe out an entire village on his own. And that's before we even include the increased danger of daemonic possession! The term "curse" may sound like a stigma, but that's exactly what it is. I am quite sure a lot of mages that ended up getting abominized and killing their own family would have preferred being born normal. The world doesn't need magic. The world would be a better place without it. Blights and abominations are quite simply too high a price to pay for the convenience of healing magic and fancy light spells.

Well this is your personal opinion, so I don't know how I'll change that, but I'll try:
First of all: Magic is just like a sword or being good with words. Magic can easily destroy a village, however someone who has skill with a sword is also capable of slaughtering an entire village. The reverse is also the same: Both a mage and a warrior can be killed with magic and/or swords. Both are ways to kill another and get what they want. The only difference here is that magic is feared and hated by the main populance. Both a mage, warrior or rogue can be possessed, and just because you have magic doesn't mean you'll end up becoming an abomination. There are a decent amount of mages in Ferelden who never ever deal with demons, who never resort to blood magic and who live by the laws of the chantry. This place does have need and uses for magic, as many things would never have been accomplished without magic. For example: mages have been immensly useful and necessary to end the blights (hence the reason why Duncan isn't glad with only 7 mages).
And if you were to see it from the Chantry's point of view: the Maker created the world and everything in it. If He didn't have use for magic, then why create it? To make fun of the humans?

But I do have to say that you would make an excellent Templar

[EmperorSahlertz]

You have to train for many years to be able to wield a blade with ease, and it is almost impossible to imagine a single man with a blade wiping out a village. Likewise with words, a man has to train his rethoric for many years to be able to sway people to his side. Though in the case of words it is easier to imagine a village "destroyed" (abbandoned), by the use of words.

The problem with magic: It doesn't require any trainning at all to be the most destructive tool in the shed... Quite the contrary really. It requires many years of trainning to NOT be so destructive.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 22 novembre 2011 - 04:42 .

[Plaintiff]

[quote]Lynata wrote...
Heiveldboy reminded me of the correct name - Ella. I actually did not realize I had the chance to save her, though that does not change anything about Anders' actions. He killed her because he thinks it's better to die than living as a Tranquil. Way to go deciding other people's fate. Isn't that the kind of oppression he claims to fight against? He's a hypocrite, plain and simple.[/quote]
Lol, no. That's not what happens at all. Have you even played the game?

[quote]They've merged into the same person now, so I will be judging them as one, just like people judge Meredith after her corruption by the idol.

If Justice had not been "corrupted" by Anders PoV, he might see his actions as the injustice they were, given how many innocent people have suffered and will suffer because of the bomb. It all depends on one's perspective.[/quote]
That's pretty ridiculous. Even once merged, Justice and Anders are clearly distinct personalities with separate thoughts and feelings. For instance, Anders falls in love with Hawke if you romance him. Justice does not, and is against the partnership, perceiving it as a distraction.

There is no evidence to suggest that Meredith was sane before she got her hands on the idol. She already has a blatantly obvious combination of messiah syndrome and persecution complex. The fact that she mistakes the lyrium idol for the voice of the Maker suggests that she was already pretty heavily predisposed to hearing voices.




[quote]I disagree. It was Meredith who rejected the Tranquil Solution, which she would not have done if she has already been on the trip she was later. We've seen what the idol did to others, we know for a fact that it corrupts people for it does so to both Bartrand and Varric. To assume that Meredith was exempt from this just because you prefer to see her as insane by default to strengthen your argument is pretty weak, imo.[/quote]
I didn't say she was exempt. The idol does not make people insane, it simply preys on character faults that already exist. If Bartrand wasn't greedy, if Varric didn't thirst for revenge and if Meredith wasn't an arrogant raving nutbag who saw maleficar behind every curtain, the idol would've had nothing to exploit. It was merely telling her what she wanted to hear. As I said, Meredith thinks she is hearing the voice of the Maker. In her state of prideful delusion, which already exists prior to obtaining the idol, the possibilty of dark magic never even occurs to her. To her perception, she is "uncorruptible" and the only one who sees "the truth".

In any case, Bartrand discarded the idol when he realised its influence on him and Varric can overcome it too, through the correct dialogue options. Meredith, as a high-ranking templar trained to resist this precise occurence, has no excuse.




[quote]What, are you saying that mages do not suffer a higher risk of being possessed, and that power is unable to corrupt?[/quote]
You said it was pretty much an absolute certainty, which is not the case.




[quote]Because we have not seen how this works out with groups of Apostates travelling the countryside in DA2, right? Oh wait, we did. They turned into blood mages![/quote]
1. Except not, because they were blood mages before they escaped the Circle.

2. Also, Hawke's personal experience does not dictate reality.

3. We know for a fact that not all apostates turn to blood magic. See Morrigan, Anders himself.

4. Blood Magic is not inherently evil nor necessarily linked to demons. See Merrill, Jowan.



[quote]suggest both of you play DA:O again (particularly the Lothering part), and maybe take a look at the Dragon Age P&P books (of which Set 2 deals with the Templar Order). We have seen templars protecting Blight refugees from bandits and highwaymen, and we have descriptions of templars hunting down Chasind raiders. Templars also participate in the Exalted Marches, although it should be pointed out that the effects of these crusades can be positive (repelling the Qunari invasion) as well as negative (expedition against the Dalish).[/quote]
A rare diversion from their usual duties; Blights do not happen every day. The Templars are the military arm of the Chantry, so the fact that they participate inExalted Marches is no surprise. Nobody is disputing that fact.




[quote]Yes. However, what you are unfortunately missing is that it's way easier for someone to deal with a templar than with a mage. A corrupt templar/guardsman/noble/whatever (which are all positions that come with a certain amount of tempting power over others) can be arrested or disposed of with comparative ease simply because, in the end, they are ordinary humans who may, at best, know how to wield a sword. A mage, however, can summon demons, burn the face off your head and blow your house up. As we have seen.[/quote]
Yeah, templars are just ordinary humans with extensive weapons training and magic-suppressing abilities. That's not scary at all. Anders may've blown up a building, but it required weeks of preparation of a concoction that probably anyone could make if they had the right ingredients. In normal battle, mages go down just as, if not quicker than Templars.

[quote]Way to go thinking like Anders. Which is exactly what I have criticized - people just don't know what should happen after the mages are free. They protest without being able to present a better solution.
[/quote]
I have a better solution. Lots of posters have ideas. There have been very lengthy threads discussing possible options for Circle reform. Notice I said "reform", not abolishment. Nobody is claiming that mages should simply be allowed to run amok without any training whatsoever.



[quote]Then name one instead of only claiming it? And yes, mages as a group do count as innocents, but they are quite simply a far smaller number than the lives you'd risk when letting them loose.[/quote]
How about the Dalish? Their mages mingle with the rest of the clan and are even revered and given positions of vital responsibility. And so far none that we've seen have turned into manialcal despots who slaughter their entire tribes to fuel a demon-smmoning ritual.

A secular circle is a perfectly viable alternative. The mages could set up trades directly with the dwarves, they could negotiate with local nobility for property and supplies in exchange for healing and enchanting services. A secular templar order could be founded to police the mages. It could even include mages.



[quote]With that kind of thinking mankind would still be living in caves because fire has the potential to burn stuff down..[/quote]
Mankind in Thedas is already doing exactly that; stifling magic's potential because they fear it. If burns aren't a good enough reason to fear fire, why are abominations a good enough reason to fear magic, the potential of which is immeasurably greater?

The Circle system has failed repeatedly. The mages have rebelled numerous times in history, only to have the Chantry retaliate by declaring annullment. The Circle is a flawed conept at base; it doesn't work the way it should and it hasn't for a long time. Mages rebel because they resent being forced to live in what is unmistakeably a prison. They rebel because they resent being torn from their families. They rebel because they resent being constantly watched by people who have been trained to hate them. They rebel because they resent being under the thumb of a Chantry that preaches hatred of their kind to the rest of the world.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Do mage-supporters always revert to n*zi and KKK comparisons to back up their argument here?[/quote]
It's an extremely valid argument. The Chantry deliberately preaches that magic is the source of all evil and that mages should be subjugated. It doesn't promote peace, it doesn't promote understanding, it doesn't treat mages like humans with feelings. It treats them like monsteers, it tells the rest of the world to fear them as such, and then it whines when mages retaliate.

When recruiting individuals for Templar training, the Chantry deliberately chooses individuals who have shown piety and devotion to their specific interpretation of the Chant of Light, including the parts about how magic is to be governed. Alistair was considered a troublesome student because he was very open about his dislike for the Chantry's rules, and he frequently got in trouble for that very reason.




[quote]In spite of the general anti-mage bias propagated by the Chantry, it remains the one organization best suited for this task, as it acts like Thedas' "United Nations" in that it considers itself above wordly politics (although enjoying to dabble in it to further its own agenda).[/quote]
It's either above worldly politics or it's not, you can't have it both ways. As you just stated, the Chantry dabbles in politics to further its own agenda, so it's clearly not above them at all. The existence of Bethany, Morrigan, Merrill and Aneirin is absolute proof that the Chantry is not vital to the production of sane, healthy, capable mages.




[quote]Any government or group of nobles that would be in the position of the Chantry would force mages into becoming tools of war to fight in their petty squabbles and escalate the scale of warfare, as is the case with the Qunari.[/quote]
This already happens. Arl Howe sends a mage to Highever Estate in the Human Noble origin. But Arl Howe is a complete douchebag and so are the Qunari, there is absolutely no logical reason to suppose that such actions would become common. Also, you're assuming that such a situation would be worse than the current one. At least in the scenario you just outlined, mages enjoy relative freedom compared to what they have now. They might deem it an improvement, and the citizenry's opinion of mages would also improve as a result, because the mages would be seen to be working with and for them. Being able to differentiate between "their" mages and "our" mages would be a definite and tangible improvement.




[quote]And the mages themselves are obviously incapable of governing themselves, for this would either lead to another Tevinter magocracy or incorporate a similar level of control that would only end up in mages fighting mages instead of templars.[/quote]
Thatis not obvious at all. Prove it.

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...
Can you point out these major failings? Unless you consider the standard level of control to be one, although I remain adamant in my judgment of it being an inconvenient but tolerable measure. Uldred - who resorted to blood magic in the course of his little rebellion - only proves how mages can be corrupted. One could even say that Ser Greagoir was maybe too lenient, else it would not have come to this situation. As far as Aneirin is concerned, deserting the Tower renders people Apostates and subject to templar pursuit. Not only are you dismissing that this rogue mage was fully aware of the consequences of an action he chose himself, but also Wynne's own responsibility as his tutor. In fact, she blames herself that he ran.[/quote]
I do consider the standard level of control a major failing.

Anders ran from the tower many times and was brought back alive on every single occasion. Aneirin was run through and left for dead. There's no excuse for how the templars involved handled that situation, especially given that Anders is a grown man and Aneirin was a child at the time. Furthermore, he was able to flourish into a capable mage without the Circle's influence, so why is it needed?




[quote]I'll give you Wynne's son, this is an area where the Circles could probably be improved. It makes a lot of sense that the mages in a Circle are separated from their off-site families, but I don't see any reason why a child born within the Circle should not remain in his parents' care.[/quote]
I don't think that makes any sense at all. Why not send a certified mage to tutor the child at home? Or better yet, why not set up many smaller establishments in heavily populated areas? Imagine how the whole Redcliffe fiasco might've turned out if Isolde had been able to send away for a Circle-accredited teacher for Connor, or take him down to the village five days a week for training at the local mage school? A much more palatable option, I should think, than having her son yanked from her, possibly never to be seen again, and losing all his rights to his family's title and property. 

[quote]
It's what the Chantry does. Information like that is widely accessible in the games, even if a visual representation is missing. As EmperorSahlertz pointed out, the dialogue is there.[/quote]
Dialogue is just people talking.  Talking is not doing. The Chantry is talking, but Anders is doing. He is explicitly shown over the course of seven years working tirelessly to help the sick and injured of Kirkwall. If I'm expected to believe that the Kirkwall Chantry is a charitable organization, then I expect to see it taking action.

In all our seven years in Kirkwall, only two Chantry priestesses ever venture into Lowtown. One is Sister Petrice, looking for someone who "won't be missed", and the other is some daft old cow asking a prostitute for donations for the poor! Meanwhile, the Kirkwall Chantry is one of the most impressive buildings in Hightown, with carpets and tapestries, expensive furniture and a mile-high statue of Andraste made of gold taking up most of the space. When Bioware makes a DLC campaign that has Elthina selling all that **** to buy food, blankets and medecine and asking Hawke to distribute it to the beggars of Darktown, I'll change my tune.

Hell, Elthina might've survived if she'd got rid of the statue. One less thing to fall on her later.



[quote]What's ironic is that Anders Disapproves of you donating injury kits and poultrices to the Chantry in DA:O. Only goes to show how little he cares for ordinary people in Origins already.[/quote]
What "ordinary people" would these be? If the opulence of the Chantry is anything to go by, there's no guarantee that the warden's donations will ever reach "ordinary people".

Yes, Anders cares so little for "ordianry people". He's so incredibly selfish and thoughtless that he spent the better part of a decade running a free clinic while risking his life to help mages escape the Gallows. God, what a douchebag.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 novembre 2011 - 06:04 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

In a debate between absolute-pro-mage and absolute-pro-templar, both sides are full of crap.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry in Kirkwall took care of the sick and the poor, which is revealed if you ever listen to what any of the priestesses talk about. What they DON'T do is wander into Darktown, simply becasue it is too damn dangerous for a priestess to travel around there, without an armed escort.

Saying you do something is not the same thing as actually doing it. When Bioware releases DLC that shows the secret room that the Kirkwall Chantry stashes all its less fortunates in, I'll change my tune.

I see. So all the bad things that the Chantry does are also just Anders saying they've been done. The Chantry never takes children from their parents. Templars never rape mages. I guess I won't believe it unless Bioware releases a DLC showing it

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 22 novembre 2011 - 06:24 .

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Chantry in Kirkwall took care of the sick and the poor, which is revealed if you ever listen to what any of the priestesses talk about. What they DON'T do is wander into Darktown, simply becasue it is too damn dangerous for a priestess to travel around there, without an armed escort.

Saying you do something is not the same thing as actually doing it. When Bioware releases DLC that shows the secret room that the Kirkwall Chantry stashes all its less fortunates in, I'll change my tune.

I see. So all the bad things that the Chantry does are also just Anders saying they've been done. The Chantry never takes children from their parents. Templars never rape mages. I guess I won't believe it unless Bioware releases a DLC showing it

Both are right. But find the claims of charity a bit hollow when you have a gold plated statue in your chantry.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:31 .