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[Xilizhra]

So I've been doing some more thinking about things like the VS, or more specifically, about Kaidan. Why might he be so unpopular? What fails to catch so many people's imaginations with him? Is it his character itself? I don't think so, personally; well, it would be for some, but I don't think it's enough. I suspected that there's something else, perhaps explaining why I and many others just aren't terribly enchanted with him without actually disliking him that much. And I believe I have it: in ME1, he doesn't have much of a continuing story.

Many people have talked about how Ashley and Kaidan don't need you to solve their problems for them. Some people say this makes them better. Perhaps it does make them better people, but it does create a bit of a problem in terms of story engagement, most particularly with Kaidan, because the story of his life seems like it's more or less concluded already, or at least all the interesting things specific to him. It'd be fascinating to read about his experiences at BAaT, for instance, but that's all in the past. He's put his issues behind him, he has no ghosts... he's just an officer serving under Shepard, and possibly boyfriend. Thus, it's harder for him to hook people into his issues and life, unless they really like his character alone, and of course, many do. But it does mean that he lacks the wide fanbase of many other characters, because he's not very easily accessible and may seem to lack a certain something that others have.

Obviously, his story arc in ME2 and 3 gives him goals and an intense personal story again, but quite frankly I don't feel that it flows very well from ME1 at all. This is why he's never alive in my games.

Now, then there's Jacob... Jacob is, quite frankly, all the problems with Kaidan turned up to eleven. He's so divorced from potential hooks in his past that he barely talks about anything, except one mission and vague allusions to Alliance life being too regimented. Even on his loyalty mission, he keeps saying how it doesn't have a hold over him in the present and will mean nothing to his future. Obviously, some people will appreciate that, but evidently not many. Jacob is even more of a blank slate going into the future than Kaidan is, and requires even more personal investment into his character to make the potential future journeys interesting, thus his crushing unpopularity. Certain instances of horrible dialogue and also bad Femshep interactions were just a few more nails in his coffin.

In something of a sidenote, we turn to Ashley, who interests me because she actually pulls off having a continuing, interesting story without needing Shepard to fix anything. Her conflict with her family's past, issues within the Alliance that have been keeping her down, and a potential reveal of General Williams' true character all have fascinating potential. And I personally feel that the VS arcs in future games fit her much better. But she's seen much hatred as well, which is largely due to an unfortunate combination of character traits: mild xenophobia and religiosity. If it had just been the former, many would have been annoyed, but it'd likely be less of an issue. Just the latter, and hardly anyone would care. But combining them could, to those with commendably egalitarian leanings but a certain lack of inclination to look deeper, easily make her look like something of a religiously-motivated bigot, something many people have probably had to deal with in their own lives, and it's easy to overreact to something like this.

As a closing statement... personally, I don't like the idea of James Vega much, but only because I don't want new squadmates. I genuinely hope that he manages to avoid the issues of popularity that the other Alliance squadmates have, if only to show that Bioware didn't make the same mistakes with the male human squadmate three times in a row.

[CptData]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaidan's intelligently written so it's no surprise he's hated. :/

Dunno why ppl hate him. I consider him as a friend to my Shepard. Too bad I can't keep him and Ashley after Virmire ...

*sigh*

[CptData]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaidan isn't in your face or cliched. His back story is clever and poignant. Most people are too dimwitted to appreciate it.

Same for Ashley.
Seems a lot of guys hate human characters, especially the VS gets a lot of hatred. Dunno why. Also don't think it's because the VS is competitor to Liara. 

Whatever, good night. Need sleep ...

[ADLegend21]

Kaidan and Jacob are immune to the "Shepard fix me" syndrome. run of the mill players hate that. Ashley has concerns that Aliens could possibly betray us, UNTHINKABLE!

[Golden Owl]

I don't find Kaidan flat or boring myself...and definitely find him one of the more interesting characters....one of my favored characters.

Jacob on the other hand, I don't really see much of a correlation between Jacob and Kaidan myself, I see more similarities between Jacob and Ash...both very cynical....Jacob being also quite a 'wet blanket'.

Ash isn't xenophobic (take the time to listen carefully to what she says in ME1)...but she is cynical, jealous and quite b*tchy....I much prefer Kaidan.

Modifié par Golden Owl, 12 novembre 2011 - 12:05 .

[tonnactus]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Kaidan and Jacob are immune to the "Shepard fix me" syndrome.

Shepardt could change the views of both...
Its not exactly a fix,but still.

[CrazyCatDude]

I generally find Kaidan too wishy-washy. There's a conversation where he's talking about "make sure you always leave yourself a way out" that just erks me. The man seems completely unable to commit to anything.

Please note that I'm not saying he's a bad character. I think, in fact, his characterization is very well done, just as I think Thane's characterization is well done. However, I dislike them *because* of the nature of their characters. Kaidan's unwilling to commit to anything. Thane is unwilling to take responsibility for what he's done with his life.

[alperez]

There's sort of a anti human trend running through me1 in particular and to a lesser extent in me2 in terms of not just how the human characters in your squads are written but in trying to force you to be even more pro alien in your views by making the most interesting or least confrontational squadmates alien.

With Kaiden we get like the OP says an almost complete character arc already in place which in some ways gives us less of a reason to actually want to learn that much about the character, with Ash we get the confrontational side where her beliefs may make people uncomfortable or unwilling to try and understand the character.

When you compare it to how Liara, Garrus, Tali and Wrex are written it really does show an almost anti human bias in the writing, none of the aliens really bring any conflict (barring the most basic kind) or have no real character traits that may cause us to dislike them.

Me2 somewhat rectifys this in terms of human characters who while not as fleshed out as any of the characters were in me1 (possibly because the squad size was so large) all possess pretty much the same character traits that the aliens did in me1 (they have issues but none are complex or really cause you to think what this characters motivations may be).

Jack imo slightly bucks the trend a little in the characters confrontational side does present a barrier to getting to know the character but even this is done in a much more basic way than its handled with Ash in me1.

What does annoy me though about how the characters are portrayed is that we're almost forced along a certain path with them, throughout me1 and onto me2 certain characters seem to be almost shoved down our throats as if to say your supposed to pick me ******.

Replay me1 and the Liara romance is a prime example of this, at times its almost as if the game is screaming at you that your supposed to be the hot blue chick, in me2 at least they resolved the romance part and instead of an alien its Miranda who's almost forced upon us.

When you add in Tali and Garrus's almost statutory "we're your true friends shepard" forcing on us also,it really does show the anti human bias in its entirety.

[Xilizhra]

There's sort of a anti human trend running through me1 in particular and to a lesser extent in me2 in terms of not just how the human characters in your squads are written but in trying to force you to be even more pro alien in your views by making the most interesting or least confrontational squadmates alien.

I don't believe this is deliberate, and it especially wasn't in ME2, given the natures of Miranda and Jack (not to mention Kasumi and Zaeed). If there was anything in ME1, there might have been encouragement to not just stay with the Alliance, but I find this somewhat unlikely.

When you compare it to how Liara, Garrus, Tali and Wrex are written it really does show an almost anti human bias in the writing, none of the aliens really bring any conflict (barring the most basic kind) or have no real character traits that may cause us to dislike them.

You've never heard the invective against those four? Well, maybe three; I've never heard anyone really criticize Wrex, but I don't like him much myself. But there's plenty of dislike there.

Me2 somewhat rectifys this in terms of human characters who while not as fleshed out as any of the characters were in me1 (possibly because the squad size was so large) all possess pretty much the same character traits that the aliens did in me1 (they have issues but none are complex or really cause you to think what this characters motivations may be).

I think this may be a result of your not looking as deeply into them.

Replay me1 and the Liara romance is a prime example of this, at times its almost as if the game is screaming at you that your supposed to be the hot blue chick, in me2 at least they resolved the romance part and instead of an alien its Miranda who's almost forced upon us.

"Us," I presume, not being Femsheps.

When you add in Tali and Garrus's almost statutory "we're your true friends shepard" forcing on us also,it really does show the anti human bias in its entirety.

No it doesn't.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:21 .

[Golden Owl]

alperez wrote...

....snip....
When you compare it to how Liara, Garrus, Tali and Wrex are written it really does show an almost anti human bias in the writing, none of the aliens really bring any conflict (barring the most basic kind) or have no real character traits that may cause us to dislike them.
.....snip...

I would have to disagree with this....I personally found Liara and Wrex's characters quite horrible and Tali wasn't much more than a walking codex.

[syllogi]

CrazyCatDude wrote...

I generally find Kaidan too wishy-washy. There's a conversation where he's talking about "make sure you always leave yourself a way out" that just erks me. The man seems completely unable to commit to anything.

Please note that I'm not saying he's a bad character. I think, in fact, his characterization is very well done, just as I think Thane's characterization is well done. However, I dislike them *because* of the nature of their characters. Kaidan's unwilling to commit to anything. Thane is unwilling to take responsibility for what he's done with his life.

I interpreted that as Kaidan advising caution, not being wishy washy.  He was refering to the fact that he completely lost his cool and killed someone, and that makes him now try to stay calm and evaluate a situation carefully before moving forward.  He is right there with Shepard, who only has the visions from the Beacon at that point of the game, and no concrete proof that the Reapers exist, but he's worried that Shepard might do something to ****** off the Alliance or the Council.  Back then, there was no Cerberus to fall back on.  If Shepard had been cut off from Citadel Council AND Systems Alliance resources completely, how exactly would he/she fight the Reapers?  So, Kaidan saying "proceed with caution" made sense, at that time.

[alperez]

Golden Owl wrote...

I would have to disagree with this....I personally found Liara and Wrex's characters quite horrible and Tali wasn't much more than a walking codex.

Yet the overall impression is tha Garrus and Tali are almost the most popular characters throughout the series and Wrex is remembered more than fondly by the vast majority of me1 players.

You may not like them personally that's your perogative, but amongs most they're universally accepted to be the best of the me1 squad.

To me that's because they don't bring the complexities that the human characters do, they don't require you to really think about whether or not you agree with the stances they take, the beliefs they have or how they express themselves, they're less generalised than the humans in essence.

Read a thread dissing Ash/Kaiden and the two things normally brought up were Kaiden's a whiner who's not interesting and Ash is a racist religious xenophobe, rather than look through the looking glass and see what's behind the curtain with those characters people usually just accept both these things on face value.

Read a thread dissing any of the other characters and its not really specific character traits that people are annoyed with, its more the fans of those particular characters or the preferential treatment it seems those characters are given.

[Xilizhra]

Read a thread dissing any of the other characters and its not really specific character traits that people are annoyed with, its more the fans of those particular characters or the preferential treatment it seems those characters are given.

This is exactly why I make these analyses. Both sides have obnoxious fans, but the VS ones tend to be attacking other fans a lot, instead of fictional characters. I find this highly irritating, which is one reason I'm rarely on the VS' side.

[alperez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't believe this is deliberate, and it especially wasn't in ME2, given the natures of Miranda and Jack (not to mention Kasumi and Zaeed). If there was anything in ME1, there might have been encouragement to not just stay with the Alliance, but I find this somewhat unlikely.

I did specify it was more prevelant in me1 than me2, like i said perhaps
because of the nature of the larger squad in me2 it doesn't really show
as much, but in terms of how the alien squadmates are handled compared
to the human ones in me1 my point still stands.

You've never heard the invective against those four? Well, maybe three; I've never heard anyone really criticize Wrex, but I don't like him much myself. But there's plenty of dislike there.

While those characters also have people who dislike them its not so much the character traits that are the main cause of the dislike, more often than not its the nature of the fans of those characters rather than anything those characters have said or done that really is brought up as why they're disliked.

Go into a thread dissing the VS and its usually Kaidens a whiner and boring or Ash is a racist xenophobe religious poetry spewing freak.

Go into a thread dissing Liara or Garrus, Tali and Wrex and its normally the fans of the characters that get bashed or the presumed preferential treatement those characters get.

I think this may be a result of your not looking as deeply into them.

I have looked deeply into the characters in me2, i've replayed the game so many times i've lost count, while each character does have there own little complexities, apart from Jack and Jacob none of the characters really bring the same level of complex motivations to the pot as Ash/Kaiden do in me1 imo.

What i mean by this is for example Miranda, while being actually much more complex than she initially looks, the only real barrier to why you may dislike the character or not be willing to get to know her is her cerberus allegieance, its not anything she says or does more its if you really hate cerberus then your probably unwilling to really delve into her character.

Jack on the other hand brings a more confrontational attitude to the mix which is the barrier to getting to know that character but even this confrontational side doesn't really require you to think too much about the character and what her motivations may be.

Ash in me1 on the other hand brings both religious belief and what appears to be racism to the fore, it requires you to actually think more about her character and whether or not you should spend time getting to know her because of this, but its only once you get to know the character that your shown what the actual truth is.

"Us," I presume, not being Femsheps.

I apologise, i was speaking from a manshep pov,

No it doesn't.

We may have to agree to disagree on this point, but imo having 2 characters willing and almost without question accept shepard's position (given the fact there really should have been more questions) in me2 and then have the one human character not, it is almost a forced statment of "we're your true friends" the human cannot be trusted to back you up.

[alperez]

Xilizhra wrote...

This is exactly why I make these analyses. Both sides have obnoxious fans, but the VS ones tend to be attacking other fans a lot, instead of fictional characters. I find this highly irritating, which is one reason I'm rarely on the VS' side.

As a VS fan i don't think i've ever attacked the fanbases of the other characters on a personal level, but i can't speak for all fans so i won't even try to, other than to say its pretty much even imo.

[Xilizhra]

I have looked deeply into the characters in me2, i've replayed the game so many times i've lost count, while each character does have there own little complexities, apart from Jack and Jacob none of the characters really bring the same level of complex motivations to the pot as Ash/Kaiden do in me1 imo.

I could see your point of view about motivations, but not if you're saying that they're more complex characters.

We may have to agree to disagree on this point, but imo having 2 characters willing and almost without question accept shepard's position (given the fact there really should have been more questions) in me2 and then have the one human character not, it is almost a forced statment of "we're your true friends" the human cannot be trusted to back you up.

Did you see my other topic on this?

[AdmiralCheez]

I really think you hit the nail on the head, Xil. Kaidan is great as a character (excellent dialogue and voice acting, interesting backstory, damn handy in the field), but he didn't feel like he had room to grow. There was no challenge presented for him to overcome. We couldn't root for him because he didn't do anything. There was no conflict, and without conflict it's hard to see him as the hero of his own story.

I say this as someone who really likes Kaidan.

[alperez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I could see your point of view about motivations, but not if you're saying that they're more complex characters.


Did you see my other topic on this?

Wanted to answer both easily sorry lol.

I meant entirely about motivations, personally i think Jack is one of the most complex characters throughout both games, cliched a little but complex definetly. Miranda also has an intriguing complexity about her character (one that's not unfortunately gone into enough imo), i also find Ash to be incredibly complex in me1 and even moreso in me2 (again though not all this complexity comes across in how the lines playout).

But when it comes to motivations its here things begin to get a bit iffy, imo the me2 characters aren't as complex in their motivations as their me1 counterparts (humans mainly), instead when you break them down there motivations are that much simpler.

Perhaps because it didn't work as well in me1 as they hoped. perhaps because rather than seeing behind the characters of kaiden/ash people focused more on the simplistics of the characters so when doing me2 they decided to make the characters motivations more simplisitc to try to make you look behind the curtain a bit more.

As for your other thread no i haven't seen it so point the way and i'll take a look.

[General User]

My problem with Kaiden? Simply this: He's a Marine, but he doesn't use a rifle. That just ain't natural!

[Xilizhra]

As for your other thread no i haven't seen it so point the way and i'll take a look.

http://social.biowar...5/index/8670354

[ADLegend21]

General User wrote...

My problem with Kaiden? Simply this: He's a Marine, but he doesn't use a rifle. That just ain't natural!

psh everyone uses the magical assualt rifle.