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[Estelindis]

Kaidan already having his issues squared away is a plausible reason for some people's lack of enthusiasm towards him, Xil. It probably goes a way to explaining why he's more popular with FemSheps, since if you're romancing him (at least I assume this only happens if you're romancing him) you get more of a payoff from listening to his story since you get to observe some things about his character and attitude towards romantic commitment based on his self-description. I'd like to think and post about it a bit more, but my brain's rather cooked at present, so I should return to the topic later.

I think that the problem with Jacob was inconsistent writing. For instance, the idea that he has his past squared away conflicts with the way he is written in other respects. He's a lot more defensive about it than Kaidan, in my opinion, which challenges the extent to which he's really at peace with it... but I don't believe Shep ever gets the chance to call him on this (unlike the wry observation that FemShep, at least, can make with Kaidan), which leaves all Sheps more inclined to be frustrated with his character.

[outmane]

Estelindis wrote...

Kaidan already having his issues squared away is a plausible reason for some people's lack of enthusiasm towards him, Xil. It probably goes a way to explaining why he's more popular with FemSheps, since if you're romancing him (at least I assume this only happens if you're romancing him) you get more of a payoff from listening to his story since you get to observe some things about his character and attitude towards romantic commitment based on his self-description. I'd like to think and post about it a bit more, but my brain's rather cooked at present, so I should return to the topic later.

I think that the problem with Jacob was inconsistent writing. For instance, the idea that he has his past squared away conflicts with the way he is written in other respects. He's a lot more defensive about it than Kaidan, in my opinion, which challenges the extent to which he's really at peace with it... but I don't believe Shep ever gets the chance to call him on this (unlike the wry observation that FemShep, at least, can make with Kaidan), which leaves all Sheps more inclined to be frustrated with his character.

This is something Im seeing too.

Both human male leads have an interesting characterization on paper. the problem lies in interaction. that is, in order to make them feel dependable and convey a sense of relability (the I-dont-need-fixing posture), the writers have them bring up their issues and explain how they fixed them (Kaidan) or how they arent affected by them (Jacob). In real life that would be a good sign. But in a game where your player agency is very restraint it ends up making those characters feel emotionally detached rather then reliable.

The only way the I-dont-need-fixing stance can bring something to the table (in term of the player ssnse of agency, not if you like or dislike the character on paper) is if you end up making the character realize that he did need some help after all. Like when Shepard tells Ashley that she is good enough and dont need to go suicidal to help regain her family honor. She didnt ask for help but you end up helping anyway. To some extent you can see the same thing with Miranda. Both strong woman who dont need help but will learn from what they experience with Shep (both Fand M Shep).

Creating emotional involvment with virtual character and limited possible interaction is hard enough as it is (for both the writer and the player I guess). So characters who solve/ignore their own problem and will not invite you to action (by either asking help or opposing the player) tend to take the back of the stage in how you remember an interactive story.

thats my idea anyway

[Estelindis]

outmane wrote...

The only way the I-dont-need-fixing stance can bring something to the table (in term of the player ssnse of agency, not if you like or dislike the character on paper) is if you end up making the character realize that he did need some help after all. Like when Shepard tells Ashley that she is good enough and dont need to go suicidal to help regain her family honor. She didnt ask for help but you end up helping anyway.

I don't agree with the statement at the beginning of this quote, but I agree with what you said about Ashley; that was good implementation.  The thing is, I like the fact that Kaidan is a mature adult who doesn't need to take Shepard's hand to cross the road.  Those of us who chose Kaidan as Shepard's LI like that; those who don't have already chosen other LIs (or none).  Why try to win over the people who already like something else when they have that something else as it stands and don't really need more of it?

As for the question of how to create deeper emotional involvement and a sense of progression in the relationship in spite of the fact that the character seems to have no loyalty mission for Shepard to accomplish, there is lots of easy material available in the war against the Reapers.  A character can have an area of special interest, or have been assigned particular duties, when it comes to the war.  Maybe the character needs to devise emergency strategies or develop special equipment.  Perhaps the character has a puzzle to solve or a particular mission where he is needed.  Shepard can help with any of those things, which are clearly huge tasks; it doesn't reflect poorly on a person if he asks for help, or simply accepts help when it's offered.  Most importantly, it's involved with the main plot.  While I loved the loyalty missions, not just in themselves but for the different structure they gave ME2 as a Bioware game (lots of interconnected short stories vs. four novellas), I came to feel that it was a bit metagamey to go on some of them.  There comes a time when it can't help but feel ridiculously shortsighted to go around solving one's crews personal problems when faced with galactic extinction.  Kaidan in ME3 wouldn't need to have a "personal" mission for him to have missions that were particularly important to him or involved him more than others, though.  Just my two cents.

Modifié par Estelindis, 17 novembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Yezdigerd]

As for Kaidan, he is just bland? He has headaches and went to biotic school is quiet and unassuming. felt like maleshep lite, to me.
Ashely I think was the best fleshed out squadmate in ME1, sisters, family stigma, religious, xenophobic. She came across as real person.
Kaidan's death on Virmire left little emotional impact, he was likeable but still just felt replaceable and I never even romanced Ashley.
It's like Miranda-Jacob, Miranda is a human supremacist that wants to get a controlchip in your brain, Jacob doesn't have an opinion that any normal person could disagree with.

As for the Aliens, no matter how cartoonish they are they still are cool because they are Aliens.
You feel like a SF hero with Garrus and Wrex running behind you.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

The aliens definately have their flaws. I don't understand why Garrus and Tali are always branded as 'Mary Sues' either. I love them both, but I can definately see flaws with them.

As opposed to the alliance characters. I think Kaidan and Ashley are both written realistically (as in, applicable to a character in the world we live in now,) whereas the aliens are written far less realistically.

Mind you, often I still prefer the aliens.


Edit: I also don't see where this theory that Kaidan is 'bland' comes from. Talk to him. He has a fascinating backstory, a very intelligently put together personality, and he comes up with some VERY insightful comments. Several of my favourite quotes from the series come from Kaidan.

Modifié par Tasha vas Nar Rayya, 17 novembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[outmane]

Estelindis wrote...

outmane wrote...

The only way the I-dont-need-fixing stance can bring something to the table (in term of the player ssnse of agency, not if you like or dislike the character on paper) is if you end up making the character realize that he did need some help after all. Like when Shepard tells Ashley that she is good enough and dont need to go suicidal to help regain her family honor. She didnt ask for help but you end up helping anyway.

I don't agree with the statement at the beginning of this quote, but I agree with what you said about Ashley; that was good implementation.  The thing is, I like the fact that Kaidan is a mature adult who doesn't need to take Shepard's hand to cross the road.  Those of us who chose Kaidan as Shepard's LI like that; those who don't have already chosen other LIs (or none).  Why try to win over the people who already like something else when they have that something else as it stands and don't really need more of it?

As for the question of how to create deeper emotional involvement and a sense of progression in the relationship in spite of the fact that the character seems to have no loyalty mission for Shepard to accomplish, there is lots of easy material available in the war against the Reapers.  A character can have an area of special interest, or have been assigned particular duties, when it comes to the war.  Maybe the character needs to devise emergency strategies or develop special equipment.  Perhaps the character has a puzzle to solve or a particular mission where he is needed.  Shepard can help with any of those things, which are clearly huge tasks; it doesn't reflect poorly on a person if he asks for help, or simply accepts help when it's offered.  Most importantly, it's involved with the main plot.  While I loved the loyalty missions, not just in themselves but for the different structure they gave ME2 as a Bioware game (lots of interconnected short stories vs. four novellas), I came to feel that it was a bit metagamey to go on some of them.  There comes a time when it can't help but feel ridiculously shortsighted to go around solving one's crews personal problems when faced with galactic extinction.  Kaidan in ME3 wouldn't need to have a "personal" mission for him to have missions that were particularly important to him or involved him more than others, though.  Just my two cents.

As all but one of my FemSheps romanced Kaidan (I have a faithful ME2 playthrough), ill have to agree with you that hes a great character. I love that he doesnt need hand holding. On paper that is. Hes a well rounded character and you can see from the histories he tell you that hes a great guy. But an archetype like Kaidan and Jacob would make much more impact in a book or movie. Cause <not needing help> and <solving my own problems> dont come across too well in an interactive media. At then end of your game experience, youre way more likely to remember the characters you helped or opposed. An exemple of that is how so many people think Wrex is awsome when all he really did in ME1 is jeopardize your mission. But you see how you made him change in ME2 and that influences the way you remember him. Beside being a LI, Kaidan is pretty short-changed in personal impact on the story and personal development in ME1.

I just wish Bioware would find a different way to show reliable characters without making them explain how they solve their own problem (Kaidan) or ignore them (Jacob). Personal loyalty missions can be a bit forced at times (specially when you have a big crew... it feels contrived at the end). ME3 could have Kaidan show us what he did during ME2 and offer a plan of action to Shep. that would be a way to convey <reliable> that keeps the player active.

Modifié par outmane, 17 novembre 2011 - 03:21 .

[Estelindis]

outmane wrote...
[bolded text]

Sorry, am I missing something, or are you saying you agree?

[Terastar]

CrazyCatDude wrote...

I generally find Kaidan too wishy-washy. There's a conversation where he's talking about "make sure you always leave yourself a way out" that just erks me. The man seems completely unable to commit to anything.



I always turn this into "Shepard you need to be sure and cover your a** " not as being non committed to anything.

[outmane]

Estelindis wrote...

outmane wrote...
[bolded text]

Sorry, am I missing something, or are you saying you agree?

Sorry my quote and edit process got a bit out of hands

[Estelindis]

outmane wrote...

Sorry my quote and edit process got a bit out of hands

Not to worry.  Now that I've read what you added, I mostly agree.  Interactive media have their own challenges compared to other media and it's important to find media-specific ways of exploring each unique character.

[Raikas]

 

Terastar wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

I generally find Kaidan too wishy-washy. There's a conversation where he's talking about "make sure you always leave yourself a way out" that just erks me. The man seems completely unable to commit to anything.

I always turn this into "Shepard you need to be sure and cover your a** " not as being non committed to anything.

^ This. Being cautious is sensible, not wishy-washy.  I think that's probably still the problem for some people though: a realistic attitude is dull compared to the suicidal boldness that some of the other characters show. Personally I found his realism so out of place that it became entertaining on its own – I thought his comments on Noveria about bringing a sweater and snow in his boots were hilarious as a counterpoint to Liara’s dramatic comments in the same areas. I think it’s awesome to have someone making those real-world type comments in the middle of a big dramatic military space opera thing, but at the same time can totally see how someone else would look at the same thing and thinking “boring”.
 
As an aside, it always surprises me that Ashley’s “glad you didn’t join for the free education” line isn’t hated on by the people who are non-fans of her – I’ve always thought that it (more than “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” or the religious stuff) is by far the most questionable line she has. Especially if you’re playing an earthborn Shep or get to it after you recover the body of that woman from her squad and hear that woman’s history – it sounds even more harsh then.

[SovereignWillReturn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaidan's intelligently written so it's no surprise he's hated. :/

Yeah, Carth Alenko was not that bad of a character...or
was it Kaiden Onasi?

I can't remember.

[Xilizhra]

As an aside, it always surprises me that Ashley’s “glad you didn’t join for the free education” line isn’t hated on by the people who are non-fans of her – I’ve always thought that it (more than “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” or the religious stuff) is by far the most questionable line she has. Especially if you’re playing an earthborn Shep or get to it after you recover the body of that woman from her squad and hear that woman’s history – it sounds even more harsh then.

I've never even heard that line. Where is it?

[outmane]

Hervoyl wrote...

 

Terastar wrote...

CrazyCatDude wrote...

I generally find Kaidan too wishy-washy. There's a conversation where he's talking about "make sure you always leave yourself a way out" that just erks me. The man seems completely unable to commit to anything.

I always turn this into "Shepard you need to be sure and cover your a** " not as being non committed to anything.

^ This. Being cautious is sensible, not wishy-washy.  I think that's probably still the problem for some people though: a realistic attitude is dull compared to the suicidal boldness that some of the other characters show. Personally I found his realism so out of place that it became entertaining on its own – I thought his comments on Noveria about bringing a sweater and snow in his boots were hilarious as a counterpoint to Liara’s dramatic comments in the same areas. I think it’s awesome to have someone making those real-world type comments in the middle of a big dramatic military space opera thing, but at the same time can totally see how someone else would look at the same thing and thinking “boring”.
 

Being level-headed and reliable are great qualities on paper that dont transfer well into ME as a game because all squaddies are de facto reliable (you can bring any of them to any given mission and get the desired outcome). Theres no mission where a cautious sqaddy would specifically tell you to be careful and that would affect the outcome. An example of how its done would be in DA2 when you can ask a particular character to intervene in a scene based on his ability (Varic would lie for you, Fenris would intimidate, etc.)

So far, squaddies known for being reliable seem to have less depth because all other squaddies turn out to be just as reliable (even the ones you wouldnt think of trusting) and they have a particular quirk on top of that too. Hense Kaidan coming out as <blank> or wishy-washy.

[outmane]

Xilizhra wrote...

As an aside, it always surprises me that Ashley’s “glad you didn’t join for the free education” line isn’t hated on by the people who are non-fans of her – I’ve always thought that it (more than “I can’t tell the aliens from the animals” or the religious stuff) is by far the most questionable line she has. Especially if you’re playing an earthborn Shep or get to it after you recover the body of that woman from her squad and hear that woman’s history – it sounds even more harsh then.

I've never even heard that line. Where is it?

Thats when Ash asks you why you enrolled and you picked <to serve the Alliance> (not sure on the exact words but its the upper answer).

And by the voice acting shes clearly teasing you, as in <after all weve been through who would think were busting our asses jsut to get a free education >

[FoxHound109]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Kaidan isn't in your face or cliched. His back story is clever and poignant. Most people are too dimwitted to appreciate it.

It doesn't really matter how clever and poignant his backstory is. His current self lacks conflict and that makes for an incredibly boring character. Every single character in Mass Effect (minus Jacob) has some sort of conflict in their lives that affects them and makes them worth getting to know. Even Joker has a conflict (his disease) and he's not part of the main crew as the others are. Kaidan is pretty much exactly like Shepard post his Space Jesus situation: dramatic things happened in his/her life and yet everybody ignores it like it's a Big Lipped Alligator Moment and Shepard never seems to have any kind of problem/psychological issue (however small) because of it. Kaidan and Jacob's problem is that they're, ironically, the absolute LEAST "human characters" in the crew.

Talk to Ashley for a while. You'll find out about her prejudices, her distrust of aliens, her family background, why she joined the alliance, why she grew up to be so stubborn, her father, her sisters, her motivation for helping Shepard, the fact that she likes poetry, etc.

Talk to Kaidan for a while. You'll find out that he was trained as a biotic in a school, where liked a girl, and he killed a Turian out of rage. That's pretty much it.

Jacob is even worse. Worked with Miranda/possibly had a relationship with her, didn't like the Alliance rules, joined Cerberus, has a father he hasn't seen in ages. He's blank outside of that.

It's kind of strange to me that the two human MALES in the main crew (not counting DLC) seem to be the ones to get the worse stories/development/etc. The females get some pretty fair treatment, especially in ME 2 with Miranda and Jack. Thankfully, it seems Bioware learned their lesson because James seems to have a legitimately good and tough backstory that seems to be affecting him even while serving under Shepard. So here's to hoping.

Modifié par FoxHound109, 17 novembre 2011 - 08:03 .

[outmane]

FoxHound109 wrote...


Talk to Ashley for a while. You'll find out about her prejudices, her distrust of aliens, her family background, why she joined the alliance, why she grew up to be so stubborn, her father, her sisters, her motivation for helping Shepard, the fact that she likes poetry, etc.

Talk to Kaidan for a while. You'll find out that he was trained as a biotic in a school, where liked a girl, and he killed a Turian out of rage. That's pretty much it.

Jacob is even worse. Worked with Miranda/possibly had a relationship with her, didn't like the Alliance rules, joined Cerberus, has a father he hasn't seen in ages. He's blank outside of that.

Ill have to disagree with the fact that Ashley has a bigger backstory then Kaidan. But I certainly see how Ash's story affected you more then Kaidan's story. Her story is told way more effectively.

When you talk to Kaidan hes almost <talking to himself>. Everything is in the past and hes already solved what ever problem there was. Hes got no actual problem or motivation other then helping you in your mission and doing the right thing.

So its not the lack of background imo. Its the lack of actual ressonance with the game.

[FoxHound109]

outmane wrote...

Ill have to disagree with the fact that Ashley has a bigger backstory then Kaidan. But I certainly see how Ash's story affected you more then Kaidan's story. Her story is told way more effectively.

When you talk to Kaidan hes almost <talking to himself>. Everything is in the past and hes already solved what ever problem there was. Hes got no actual problem or motivation other then helping you in your mission and doing the right thing.

So its not the lack of background imo. Its the lack of actual ressonance with the game.

She didn't have a "bigger backstory," she had a more varied one. You got to know more details about her as a person than you ever did with Kaidan. Kaidan's focus is on a single moment in this life/a short period of time, which becomes less interesting when you realize it's kind of irrelevant since it doesn't seem to cause any kind of internal conflict for him anymore. Ashley doesn't have that; she has several different pieces of a story to tell you because her focus is more broad, and you can tell it's not irrelevant at all. Ashley still struggles with trusting aliens after her family was involved in The First Contact War and she struggles to make a name for herself in the Alliance after everything that happened to her family.

It's the main reason I saved Ashley instead of Kaidan in Virmire: Kaidan's life seemed complete and so did his story. Ashley on the other hand still hadn't gotten over her struggles and I knew saving her meant giving her that chance she needed to make her family proud without having to die and never actually solve the internal issues plaguing her. It's the reason I save Ashley 9 times out of 10.

[CptData]

FoxHound109 wrote...

outmane wrote...

Ill have to disagree with the fact that Ashley has a bigger backstory then Kaidan. But I certainly see how Ash's story affected you more then Kaidan's story. Her story is told way more effectively.

When you talk to Kaidan hes almost <talking to himself>. Everything is in the past and hes already solved what ever problem there was. Hes got no actual problem or motivation other then helping you in your mission and doing the right thing.

So its not the lack of background imo. Its the lack of actual ressonance with the game.

She didn't have a "bigger backstory," she had a more varied one. You got to know more details about her as a person than you ever did with Kaidan. Kaidan's focus is on a single moment in this life/a short period of time, which becomes less interesting when you realize it's kind of irrelevant since it doesn't seem to cause any kind of internal conflict for him anymore. Ashley doesn't have that; she has several different pieces of a story to tell you because her focus is more broad, and you can tell it's not irrelevant at all. Ashley still struggles with trusting aliens after her family was involved in The First Contact War and she struggles to make a name for herself in the Alliance after everything that happened to her family.

It's the main reason I saved Ashley instead of Kaidan in Virmire: Kaidan's life seemed complete and so did his story. Ashley on the other hand still hadn't gotten over her struggles and I knew saving her meant giving her that chance she needed to make her family proud without having to die and never actually solve the internal issues plaguing her. It's the reason I save Ashley 9 times out of 10.

I can't fully concur about Kaidan here, but I still have only "Ashley lives playthroughs". Not because I don't like Kaidan - I just have to decide between both and Ash is my "headcanon" LI of m!Sheps. No f!Sheps yet.

Kaidan's life is a bit focused on one single event - but that's the case of nearly ALL characters in ME and ME2 - they have a life with one single "overshadowing" event that makes up a large part of their character. Garrus being a (ex) cop that hates following the rules. Tali with her pilgrimage. Miranda has nothing more to tell than "being almost a clone of her father with two X chromosomes" and how "Cerberus helped & protected her". Thane seems to have a long history - but it's reduced to his wife and son.

That doesn't make them to bad characters, it just feels ... incomplete.

Ashley on the other hand doesn't have such strong event in her past. She's defined through her current flaws, her family (sisters, father, grandfather), her opinions - she even got a hobby. That makes her "feeling alive". Her story isn't told yet while others already seem to have at least one closed chapter in their life - and that chapter defines who they are. Oh, except Mordin. He seems to change throughout his LM.

[Raikas]

outmane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I've never even heard that line. Where is it?

Thats when Ash asks you why you enrolled and you picked <to serve the Alliance> (not sure on the exact words but its the upper answer).

And by the voice acting shes clearly teasing you, as in <after all weve been through who would think were busting our asses jsut to get a free education >

I agree that she’s teasing, but I think it’s played as something that people say quietly amongst like-minded people, because even as a joke it’s pretty harsh – that woman whose body you can get back or leave for experimentation back did essentially die for the free education, and an earthborn Shep did enlist to change his/her life. I think it’s a totally in-character and realistic thing for her to say since she’s from a military family, but that doesn’t change the essence of it.

FoxHound109 wrote...

Ashley still struggles with trusting aliens after her family was involved in The First Contact War and she struggles to make a name for herself in the Alliance after everything that happened to her family.
It's the main reason I saved Ashley instead of Kaidan in Virmire

My reasoning was similar in my first playthough, but that ended up being the only one where I saved her. Over time I felt like Ashley giving her life for a pan-species cause was a good solid progress in terms of redeeming her family name whereas Kaidan’s death was just another random name on the casualty list. I think the galactic news items we get in ME2 show that too – she gets a Salarian medal while he just gets a scholarship named after him. In a way, I guess it was the fact that he didn’t have a varied enough background story was what made me want to keep him alive (I don’t really mean “You’re too boring to die!” but it sounds a little like that, doesn’t it? Heh.).

Modifié par Hervoyl, 17 novembre 2011 - 10:02 .

[Quething]

Hervoyl wrote...

I agree that she’s teasing, but I think it’s played as something that people say quietly amongst like-minded people, because even as a joke it’s pretty harsh – that woman whose body you can get back or leave for experimentation back did essentially die for the free education, and an earthborn Shep did enlist to change his/her life. I think it’s a totally in-character and realistic thing for her to say since she’s from a military family, but that doesn’t change the essence of it.

I don't think it's a class thing. Her father never even made it to NCO, her family was poorer than Spacer or Colonist Shep. Remember that it's not just that she's from a military family, it's that the Alliance means everything to her. She has a religion, sure, but the thing she's actually religious about, in the sense that it drives her worldview and she's dedicated to it, its principles, what it stands for and the way it shapes her life, is her military service. Her line is in response to a Shepard saying they feel the same way, that they too believe in the Alliance and are here for a life, not a job. The proper comparison would be some diehard Hasidic Jew saying "glad you're not just in it for the seven days of Haunnakah presents" when a fellow Jew makes a statement of strong faith. Doesn't mean he's contemptuous of aetheists, just that he's glad the other person doing what he's doing is taking it just as seriously.

Modifié par Quething, 17 novembre 2011 - 11:04 .

[jeweledleah]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Talk to Kaidan for a while. You'll find out that he was trained as a biotic in a school, where liked a girl, and he killed a Turian out of rage. That's pretty much it.

sigh. you kinda missed the point of his story,  he's not telling it to Shepard to yack about his past, he's tellign it to Shepard as an example of what happens when you back yourself into a corner like he did when he stood up for Rahna without thinking, or that innocent people get hurt when you cut corners instead of concidering all the options carefuly (like kids getting hurt becasue alliance cut corners by hiring a Turian merc to train them, going behind council's backs)

he gives very insightful opinions after every mission EVEN with male Shepard, though his sence of humor shows up more with femshep only, sadly.

and he didn't kill Virnus out of rage  (wishes there was a facepalm icon here)  he killed him out of self defence.  Sure, he's not dramatic in ME1 at least, but he wasn't meant to be and there's nothing wrong with it.

but concidering his lacking dialogue with male Shepard, it certainly seems like they were trying to make the virmire choice more obvious  >_>  aaah, bioware.

[outmane]

Hervoyl wrote...

My reasoning was similar in my first playthough, but that ended up being the only one where I saved her. Over time I felt like Ashley giving her life for a pan-species cause was a good solid progress in terms of redeeming her family name whereas Kaidan’s death was just another random name on the casualty list. I think the galactic news items we get in ME2 show that too – she gets a Salarian medal while he just gets a scholarship named after him. In a way, I guess it was the fact that he didn’t have a varied enough background story was what made me want to keep him alive (I don’t really mean “You’re too boring to die!” but it sounds a little like that, doesn’t it? Heh.).

What you said there made me realize that wether you leave Ash behind on Virmire or keep her alive she gets a fulfilling completion of her story arc. Will she be a strong woman and regain her family honor by giving her life for the cause or by staying alive to show them what shes made off... Both very interesting.

I hope the way Kaidan handles interspecies politics in ME3 will give a sense of why save Kaidan. Other then because hes your LI. I wouldnt call it <youre too boring to die> but it does feel like he hasnt accomplished something yet, he hasnt reached a defining turning point (maybe Horizon... depending how that plays out). Good thing theres still ME3 for that. 

[Raikas]

 

Quething wrote...

I don't think it's a class thing. Her father never even made it to NCO, her family was poorer than Spacer or Colonist Shep. Remember that it's not just that she's from a military family, it's that the Alliance means everything to her. She has a religion, sure, but the thing she's actually religious about, in the sense that it drives her worldview and she's dedicated to it, its principles, what it stands for and the way it shapes her life, is her military service. Her line is in response to a Shepard saying they feel the same way, that they too believe in the Alliance and are here for a life, not a job. The proper comparison would be some diehard Hasidic Jew saying "glad you're not just in it for the seven days of Haunnakah presents" when a fellow Jew makes a statement of strong faith.

No, I didn't take it as a class or money thing - purely a military/civilian thing. 
I totally agree on the fact that it drives her worldview - I've heard similar things from actual military families in real life (both enlisted and commissioned) which is why it both struck me as totally realistic and in character. At the same time, I can’t not see it as very harsh depending on your Shep's background and if you’ve heard the post-Homecoming quest elevator news (if you get it as a Spacer Shep and/or before the Nirali's body part then the context "works" a little better - to use your Jewish comparison it might be the difference between making the joke to a convert versus someone born into the religion).
 
I’m not saying the line shouldn’t be there, what baffles me is why her non-fans get upset about the religious talk (which strikes me as fairly benign, considering how those things can go) while this bit hardly ever gets mentioned at all when it’s actually pretty judgmental.

outmane wrote...



wether you leave Ash behind on Virmire or keep her alive she gets a fulfilling completion of her story arc. Will she be a strong woman and regain her family honor by giving her life for the cause or by staying alive to show them what shes made off... Both very interesting.

 
Yeah, that’s what I love about the way her character was written – her story has good solid resolution regardless.

Modifié par Hervoyl, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:55 .