1381 réponses à ce sujet

[sponge56]

There is no real plausibile explanation as to how some people on these forums can constantly defend Cerberus.

1)  Cerberus is an inherently RACIST/SPECIEST organisation.  They aim to make humanity the dominant power in the galaxy, subjugating the other races.  I don't understand how so many people on these forums can defend such as organisation.  The Mass Effects series makes it obvious that all races are fundamentally 'human' in regards to their emotions and core beliefs.  The only things which separate the races are some cultural and political differences.  The mantra of 'humanity has to be protected' has disturbing resonances to real life White Supremicist organisations, but I hopefully doubt that those defending Ceberus would defend this outlook.

2) Humanity doesn't really need to ascend.  A war with the other alien species is highly unlikely or even impossible due to the size of Humanity's fleet.  While not as large as the Turians, it poses a significant enough threat so that war would be very costly for both sides.  Also, Humanity is constantly given more and more powers and freedom by the Council in a very quick space of time, so why do we need such an organisation?

3) Many pro-cerberus supporters go on about how Cerberus represents and acts for humanity.  It does nothing of the sort.  Cerberus acts on the behalf of the Illusive Man, an individual figure who calls all the shots in his organisation.  The Alliance is run by elected officials who are voted into their respective positions, who elected the Illusive Man?  His funders trust he will act with humanity's best interests, but I doubt they know or have a say on a ything that he actually does.

[GMagnum]

dam but if i wusnt 4 da illusive man dere would b no ME2/3 tbh

omg /thread plz its over jus dont bother omg plz

[sponge56]

what a charming and sophisticated fellow you are

[GMagnum]

indubitably tbh

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The entire galaxy is that way.
 

No, there is a distinction.  The galaxy looks out for itself.  All things will inadvertently want to put themselves first.  However, there is a leap between a species looking out for its own interest and advocating supremacy over everything.  If the galaxy worked that way the Turians would have subjucated everyone already.

Yes it does. Humanity needs as much strength as it can get to protect itself. We've seen what can happen to species that can't. Those species being the rachni, the krogan, the batarians, the quarians, and all the "lesser" races trampled on by the Council. 

Can't defend themselves?  Both the Krogan and Rachni wars are two linked titanic conflcts which the Council does not wish to repeat.  Neither the Rachni or the Krogan possesed a fleet large enough to challenge the Council (and fleets are the nuclear deterants of the ME universe)- Humanity however, has a fleet, a fleet which is also continuely expanding.

How does Cerberus having a leader invalidate their belief in fighting for humanity? Somebody has to call the shots or Cerberus would get nothing done. The Alliance obeys its leaders as well. Are they not fighting for humanity but merely whatever their leaders tell them to fight for?

Because they are not fighting for humanity as a body, they are fighting for one mans view of what humanity needs.  The distinction I made is that the Alliance has elected members, meaning that they DO act on behalf of the true aims and feelign sof humanity

[Volus Warlord]

sponge56 wrote...

There is no real plausibile explanation as to how some people on these forums can constantly defend Cerberus.

1)  Cerberus is an inherently RACIST/SPECIEST organisation.  They aim to make humanity the dominant power in the galaxy, subjugating the other races.  I don't understand how so many people on these forums can defend such as organisation.  The Mass Effects series makes it obvious that all races are fundamentally 'human' in regards to their emotions and core beliefs.  The only things which separate the races are some cultural and political differences.  The mantra of 'humanity has to be protected' has disturbing resonances to real life White Supremicist organisations, but I hopefully doubt that those defending Ceberus would defend this outlook.

2) Humanity doesn't really need to ascend.  A war with the other alien species is highly unlikely or even impossible due to the size of Humanity's fleet.  While not as large as the Turians, it poses a significant enough threat so that war would be very costly for both sides.  Also, Humanity is constantly given more and more powers and freedom by the Council in a very quick space of time, so why do we need such an organisation?

3) Many pro-cerberus supporters go on about how Cerberus represents and acts for humanity.  It does nothing of the sort.  Cerberus acts on the behalf of the Illusive Man, an individual figure who calls all the shots in his organisation.  The Alliance is run by elected officials who are voted into their respective positions, who elected the Illusive Man?  His funders trust he will act with humanity's best interests, but I doubt they know or have a say on a ything that he actually does.

1.) Nice smear.  In real life, you are either the exploited or the one doing the exploiting.  Cerberus would prefer humanity be the latter rather bend over backwards for the oppressive Turians or the gentle genocide to all others that is the Asari race. If humanity attempts to shape itself to meet the desires of the other races, it will merely ensure its own destruction. Why? Because to obey the Council above anything else is self-induced slavery. And then the Council would treat humanity much as the Reapers would: use them for all their worth, then toss them aside.

2.) Contentment is the worst enemy of excellence. And there is always a need to ascend. New problems arise, and one must adapt and find ways to overcome them rather than simply being content, sitting on them and waiting for them to go away. The desire to be more is what drives everything forward. Oh yeah, the Turains got ya outnumbered pretty badly.

3.) Yes, TIM is essentially the autocrat of Cerberus. This allows for a small and effecient leadership of a potent organization rather than a slow, inefficent bureacracy such as the Council. So, while one man with so much power may seem dangerous, it maximizes Cerberus's flexibility and strength. Is TIM up to it? Thus far, he's done pretty well. But Bioware's pretty determined to throw the whole organization to hell in ME3. It'll make things.. interesting.

[Lady Niltiak]

 Martin Sheen is TIM, therefore Cerberus is an alright Organization!!!
...
...
...
That is a joke.

[GMagnum]

dam id hate 2 be sponge56 rite now tbh dude gettin stomp da fk out some1 plz call 9-1-1

[sponge56]

Volus Warlord wrote...


1.) Nice smear.  In real life, you are either the exploited or the one doing the exploiting.  Cerberus would prefer humanity be the latter rather bend over backwards for the oppressive Turians or the gentle genocide to all others that is the Asari race. If humanity attempts to shape itself to meet the desires of the other races, it will merely ensure its own destruction. Why? Because to obey the Council above anything else is self-induced slavery. And then the Council would treat humanity much as the Reapers would: use them for all their worth, then toss them aside.

Nice side step of my point on racsism.  Also how exactly is humanity exploited by the Council then?

2.) Contentment is the worst enemy of excellence. And there is always a need to ascend. New problems arise, and one must adapt and find ways to overcome them rather than simply being content, sitting on them and waiting for them to go away. The desire to be more is what drives everything forward. Oh yeah, the Turains got ya outnumbered pretty badly.

Ummm yes new problems arise which need to be overcome, but Cerberus doesn't influence galactic politics on a whole does it?  All the meanignfull trade negotioations and adavancements have been done by the Alliance, not Cerberus.  And so what?  Numbers arent anything, and humanity has a large enough fleet that the galaxy is stated as being afraid of a war between humanity and the Turians which would likely mean disaster for both races.

3.) Yes, TIM is essentially the autocrat of Cerberus. This allows for a small and effecient leadership of a potent organization rather than a slow, inefficent bureacracy such as the Council. So, while one man with so much power may seem dangerous, it maximizes Cerberus's flexibility and strength. Is TIM up to it? Thus far, he's done pretty well. But Bioware's pretty determined to throw the whole organization to hell in ME3. It'll make things.. interesting.

Yeah, because autocratic regimes have a reputation for being good havent they .  Also, this is about Humanity, not the Council.  Humanity is run by the Alliance Parliament

[sponge56]

GMagnum wrote...

dam id hate 2 be sponge56 rite now tbh dude gettin stomp da fk out some1 plz call 9-1-1

actually I pity you, knowing that your life must be so abysmal that you have to resort to annoying people over the internet

Modifié par sponge56, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:04 .

[GMagnum]

dam dis dude went hard tbh

[Golden Owl]

Hmmm...Sponge, Saph and Volus all come up with a number of good points on each side....I will have to think about all this for awhile...would love to comment later.

[StarcloudSWG]

TIM's done pretty well?

No. No he hasn't. His one and only true success was the Lazarus Project. Everything else Cerberus has put its hand to has either backfired or just succeeded in a minimal way.

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, there isn't. The Council discriminates based on race. It is the natural way of things. Every species looks out for itself because it has to. Cerberus doesn't stand out here.

Everybody discriminates against somebody else I admit, however that was not my point whatsoever.  The Turians, Asari, Salarians etc are not supremacist, otherwise the galaxy would be run by a Turian or other dictatorship etc.  If Cerberus gained power and Humanity had the means, the Council races would be subjugated and possibly wiped out.

What in the **** are you talking about?

I don't want something like the genophage happening to humanity. I don't want us used as pawns and canon fodder in some other species' war. I don't want us to ever be helpless like the quarians or outcast like the batarians. Humanity needs power and influence to stay safe.

Again, actually read what I wrote.  Humanity has a large fleet which the Krogan did not posses, therefore meanign it has a strong DETTERANT against invasion or war.  And humnaity has power and influence, did you play ME1?! Humanity gains a seat on the Council after only about 20 years, and before that humanity were getting more territory and perks faster than any other race.

That's horse crap. Those elected officials did nothing to stop the Collector attacks, did they? No, Cerberus had to do that. They were inept at best and disinterested at worst. The Alliance is strangled by politics. Cerberus isn't.

Right, chill out for one. Secondly, your trying to derail the point I was making.  Essentially the illusive man does whatever the hell he likes in his own perspective of what 'humanity' wants, despite the fact that humanity as a body actually views Cerberus has a mentalist terrorist cell?  So really its just TIM's version of humanity that Cerberus is actually fighting for

[Volus Warlord]

sponge56 wrote...



Nice side step of my point on racsism.  Also how exactly is humanity exploited by the Council then?

Ummm yes new problems arise which need to be overcome, but Cerberus doesn't influence galactic politics on a whole does it?  All the meanignfull trade negotioations and adavancements have been done by the Alliance, not Cerberus.  And so what?  Numbers arent anything, and humanity has a large enough fleet that the galaxy is stated as being afraid of a war between humanity and the Turians which would likely mean disaster for both races.

Yeah, because autocratic regimes have a reputation for being good havent they .  Also, this is about Humanity, not the Council.  Humanity is run by the Alliance Parliament

Sidestep? Hehehe. You apparently think racism allegations are a damning accusation, and being accused of racism makes you unable to achieve anything. That is pretty.. silly.  The world's best and brightest have been but racists, bigots, cowards, and pigs. Look around sometime. Prejudice does not render one incapable.

If humanity does not use "extra" means to influence its will on the other, the Alliance may as well be a bunch of mercenaries. Fighting for no cause but a paycheck. Their very existance will be to serve the will of another.

And Cerberus can influence anything it wants to:P. That's the beauty of it. That's the purpose of it.

The Alliance is not independant of Cerberus, as Cerberus has the Alliance heavily infiltrated. Cerberus may have had a hand in those treaties and agreements. And just because something could be a disaster doesn't mean it can't happen.

And there are some autocratic regimes that are successful, just as there are democracies that fail. Reputation is merely a political paint job. And again, the Alliance is not independant of Cerberus.

[GMagnum]

dam i need sum more butter for dis popcorn

[Faolin]

Yes it does. Humanity needs as much strength as it can get to
protect itself. We've seen what can happen to species that can't. Those
species being the rachni, the krogan, the batarians, the quarians, and
all the "lesser" races trampled on by the Council.

You left out one crucial case study there. The turians. The turians weren't orginally part of the Council. And yes, they were "used" as cannon fodder in the Krogan Rebellions. But they did well out of it precisely because unlike all the other examples, they were willing to assimilate. The rachni were insane, the krogan and batarians were territorial and agressive, but the turians had exactly the right combination of pride and servility. They looked after themselves, but they did so in a matter that benefited everyone else. So now they're (arguably) the most powerful race in the galaxy.
 
Humanity can do the same thing. After all, in the Paragon ending it has a Council seat, because it was too powerful to be ignored and too friendly to be worth crushing. Cerberus wants to send humanity screaming down the same path that consumed the batarians and krogan. The Council has had a lot of experience in ruthlessly crushing races whose ambition comprimises their interests.

Cerberus would prefer humanity be the latter rather bend over backwards
for the oppressive Turians or the gentle genocide to all others that is
the Asari race.

You're getting a bit carried away with your rhetoric there. Turians have oppressed humanity exactly once (Shanxi). Which the Council forced them to apologise and pay reparations for. And seriously, "gentle genocide"? You seriously think humanity's achilles heel is that it doesn't breed enough? The Asari can only have an impact on population growth on worlds were they are present in large numbers (ie: none of the human ones). And even then, the human would have to take the asari as a sole lover for life to make a difference (which isn't necessarily how either race functions).

Modifié par Faolin, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[CRISIS1717]

I think it's pretty obvious that Cerberus is an evil organisation. They will kill aliens and humans who stand in their way. They don't desire all humanity on top they desire Cerberus to be on top.

Modifié par CRISIS1717, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[sponge56]

Volus Warlord wrote...


Sidestep? Hehehe. You apparently think racism allegations are a damning accusation, and being accused of racism makes you unable to achieve anything. That is pretty.. silly.  The world's best and brightest have been but racists, bigots, cowards, and pigs. Look around sometime. Prejudice does not render one incapable.

Its not an allegation, its a fact.  Ceberus IS a racist organisation.  And racism of any form is disgusting, irrational, and always based off a fear of the unknown.  And what utter rubbish, the worlds best and brightest have been, drumroll.. extraordinary people.  Whether they be compassionate, cowardly, brave etc.  And what an ubelieveably ridiculopus assertion to make.

The Alliance is not independant of Cerberus, as Cerberus has the Alliance heavily infiltrated. Cerberus may have had a hand in those treaties and agreements. And just because something could be a disaster doesn't mean it can't happen.

So whats the point of the military, science, assasination divisions of Cerberus then?  You could just use members of the Terrm Firma party to sway nationalistic votes in the Allaince Parliament, not some shady para military unit.

[Kaiser Shepard]

sponge56 wrote...

Everybody discriminates against somebody else I admit, however that was not my point whatsoever.  The Turians, Asari, Salarians etc are not supremacist, otherwise the galaxy would be run by a Turian or other dictatorship etc.

But the Council already is a dictatorship, just not with one ruling over the other twelve, but three over the other ten.

The difference is negligible.

[Volus Warlord]

CRISIS1717 wrote...

I think it's pretty obvious that Cerberus is an evil organisation. They will kill aliens and humans who stand in their way. They don't desire all humanity on top they desire Cerberus to be on top.

Heh. The question is not one of good or evil, the question is one of means and purpose.

[Selene Moonsong]

TIM isn't interested in Humanity, TIM is interested in the power he can gain, or did people miss the conversation just before the end of the suicide run where even Miranda tendered her resignation or the final conversation between Shep and TIM after the suicide run.

TIM is concerned about TIM, not humanity and makes Miranda's father seem like the salt of the earth by comparison. From what I have seen in the games so far, TIM is merely using humanity to achieve his own personal goals; he isn't interested in making humans the top of the heap, he wants to be the top of the heap, no matter the cost.