1381 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

OP, It's amazing what evils a person can defend. It's always going to be like that you will always find someone who sympathizes with mass murders, child abusers, or terrorist and with those you can not reason because it is unconscionable.

Not really sure you can compare Cerberus supporters to murderers and child abusers.

I get the impression that playing Mass Effect as a pragmatist is something of a troubling experience, because much of the game's morality favors the paragon mindset, sometimes in spite of what seems practical. So these pragmatists tend to take refuge in their support of Cerberus, which is perhaps the closest thing to a pragmatic organization there is in the game.

Unfortunately for them, BioWare seems to have no intention of presenting Cerberus as a morally ambiguous and ethically complex organization, and only intends to turn them into the crazy incompetent bad guys we always feared they were.

[Amaterasuomikami]

Cerberus shouldn't be defended because even if you sometimes have to do bad things or feel they're for a greater good, those actions can still be so bad one shouldn't try to defend them.

For example, you have to think, were the biotic experiments on children really necessary? Apart from Jack they all appeared to be a failure. And Jack is so messed up she's not much use to anyone but Shepard.

They brought Shepard back, but that was more a convenient plot device.

But as for Mass Effect 3, we'll have to wait and see if there are (m)any nuances about why Cerberus is doing what it is. And no references to the leaked script, please - I haven't read it!

Modifié par Amaterasuomikami, 14 novembre 2011 - 08:11 .

[Someone With Mass]

Wait until ME3 comes out. Then people's opinion of Cerberus will probably not be that positive.

[Someone With Mass]

lightsnow13 wrote...

Yeah, I think the whole biotic death camp for kids thing is...probably the worst thing Cerberus has done. I honestly don't care about cerberus. I'm neither here nor there (to me I just don't get the impact that they're a terrorist organization.) but definitely - the biotic camp is horrible. Kids? That's sad

It's sad, yes.

The worst thing they have done? Debatable. Yet to be determined.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Amaterasuomikami wrote...

Cerberus shouldn't be defended because even if you sometimes have to do bad things or feel they're for a greater good, those actions can still be so bad one shouldn't try to defend them.

For example, you have to think, were the biotic experiments on children really necessary? Apart from Jack they all appeared to be a failure. And Jack is so messed up she's not much use to anyone but Shepard.

If humanity ends up surviving thanks all the advanced Cerberus made? - yes, it was necessary.
As horrible as it sounds, and as much as it galls me, the reality is that sometimes you do bad things to prevent even worse things - and you do it because there's no time for "gooder" methods. Or becuase gooder methods simply wotn' work.

Of couse kidnaping of children, assasination and experiments are immoral things. So is keeping mages locked up in DA. And many things that happen in the world daily (like quarantene).

It's just one of those depressive ralities of the world I guess....

[Someone With Mass]

lightsnow13 wrote...

Are you saying this from the perspective of someone who has read the spoilers? Hmm...what could they do that's worse? Can't wait to play ME3 to find out!

Just saying. Kidnapping biotic kids?
 
Small potatoes.

And yep, I have read the spoilers.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 14 novembre 2011 - 09:37 .

[Cpt-Brit]

sponge56 wrote...

The Turians, Asari, Salarians etc are not supremacist, otherwise the galaxy would be run by a Turian or other dictatorship etc.  If Cerberus gained power and Humanity had the means, the Council races would be subjugated and possibly wiped out.

The Turians WOULD rule the galaxy if their leaders were idiotic it says in the Turian codex that they have a "Colonial view" of the rest of the galaxy in that they WANT to do it but they know they would stand to lose more than they would gain if they lost the Asari and Salarians.

Which is basically the same as Most White/Black/Yellow/Blue Supremists they might WANT to 'Get rid' of minorities in their country it doesn't mean that they have the will power or ability to do it.

Cerberus fills a gap that Humanity needs yea it does do some idiotic stuff (I haven't read the comics but no doubt they paint Cerberus to be about as effective as the Germany Army in WW2 films Well we've beat back all before us oh sh*t American's RUN RUN FOR THE HILLS! yea like fu*k thank you for butchering History Hollywood) but I'm sure they have done alot of successful projects too or had their hand in them... I really doubt they could become a force to be reckoned with if they failed all the time like some Bond Bad Guy. I just hope we get the chance to rein them in and find out what the fu*k has gone wrong because I really hope to god that ALL of Cerberus isn't Indoctrinated.

Modifié par Cpt-Brit, 14 novembre 2011 - 11:38 .

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nope. You are one billion percent wrong.

You use one single sentance, translate it in your head untill ti means what you want it to mean, and then harp on it while ingoring everything else in the material.

....snoooooore....

His remark that "Cerberus is humanity" means a lot..and very little at the same time. You read it as his saying that he is Cerberus. Wrong. What TIM sees is cerberus are guardians of humanity against the reapers. If Cerberus fails, humanity falls. Cerberus is all about humanity. Cerberus is humanity.
There's nothing really wrong with what he said.

Yeah, to the incapable of reading between the lines, that is what one is supposed to hear. You are incapable of even grasping the nature of an ambiguous sentence that propagates two separate meanings...

Of course that "cerberus is all about humanity". But that's not what he says. He has a freudian slip there. He says that Cerberus is humanity.

You keep harping how he wants power, but it's clear that he could have had power and control if he want it.

Yeah, and he indeed does have it, and is close to having even more.

After all, no one knows who he is nor how he looks. He could have run for president. He could have used his considerable wealth to make himself even richer, insted of dumping it into various projects aimed at defending humanity.

There are no evidences of these "possibilities", and the "real" TIM has lots of power. To deny this obvious fact is threading in cerebral meltdown. Go ahead and wreck yourself out, but leave this thread undamaged by this stupidity.

So sorry, but your argument is bull, as it relies on a single, distorted sentance.

Of course, it does not rely on a single sentence, but in the whole story. You sound like the kind of person who would really eat the propaganda, hook line and sinker. Man, perhaps the writers are not so bad as some people (hey, even you! Oh the irony!) make them to be, if they can fool so many people with so simple artifices.

[Nightwriter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Amaterasuomikami wrote...

Cerberus shouldn't be defended because even if you sometimes have to do bad things or feel they're for a greater good, those actions can still be so bad one shouldn't try to defend them.

For example, you have to think, were the biotic experiments on children really necessary? Apart from Jack they all appeared to be a failure. And Jack is so messed up she's not much use to anyone but Shepard.

If humanity ends up surviving thanks all the advanced Cerberus made? - yes, it was necessary.
As horrible as it sounds, and as much as it galls me, the reality is that sometimes you do bad things to prevent even worse things - and you do it because there's no time for "gooder" methods. Or becuase gooder methods simply wotn' work.

Of couse kidnaping of children, assasination and experiments are immoral things. So is keeping mages locked up in DA. And many things that happen in the world daily (like quarantene).

It's just one of those depressive ralities of the world I guess....

You realize such flimsy consequentialism is a ridiculous excuse for torturing children.

You realize you cannot compare the torture of children to locking up mages who have historically proven to be incredibly dangerous.

You realize we quarantine people to keep diseases from spreading, not because we want to gain political and racial power by torturing children into super soldiers.

You realize "gooder" is not a word. Unless you are using it to make me laugh or you are an adorable dog in a cape. In which case it is totally a word. It is a Superword.

[Xilizhra]

You realize you cannot compare the torture of children to locking up mages who have historically proven to be incredibly dangerous.

Actually, one can, it's just that both are highly evil.

[Dean_the_Young]

So are quarantines, apparently.

Come on, swine flu! Give us a culture paradigm-shift!

[Xilizhra]

Quarantines are acceptable until a cure is found, assuming they ensure that only infected people are the ones trapped and they aren't deprived of anything necessary while there.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

You realize you cannot compare the torture of children to locking up mages who have historically proven to be incredibly dangerous.

Actually, one can, it's just that both are highly evil.

Sure, children can be a handful, but I'd hardly call them as evil as mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

Unfortunately, the only cure for Latent Abomination-itis at this time involves partial lobotomy. Thankfully, Thedas isn't so desperate as to enforce that cure when containment can be maintained instead.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unfortunately, the only cure for Latent Abomination-itis at this time involves partial lobotomy. Thankfully, Thedas isn't so desperate as to enforce that cure when containment can be maintained instead.

I disagree about that, remember the Cerberus-esque outbreak of abominationitis that almost escaped from the mage tower in DAO.

There are some risks that are probably not worth taking even in desperate times like those in Thedas and the ME galaxy. Especialy when Cerberus is involved.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Unfortunately, the only cure for Latent Abomination-itis at this time involves partial lobotomy. Thankfully, Thedas isn't so desperate as to enforce that cure when containment can be maintained instead.

I disagree about that, remember the Cerberus-esque outbreak of abominationitis that almost escaped from the mage tower in DAO.

Almost, if not for the quarantine-enforcers at the gates, and the incoming reinforcements to clear the plague carriers.

There are some risks that are probably not worth taking even in desperate times like those in Thedas and the ME galaxy. Especialy when Cerberus is involved.

The Illusive Man would so try and make every human a Mage.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Illusive Man would so try and make every human a Mage.

It wouldn't suprise me if there is some Cerberus cell somewhere doing lyrium experiments on humans. With predictable results.

[Dean_the_Young]

lovgreno wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Illusive Man would so try and make every human a Mage.

It wouldn't suprise me if there is some Cerberus cell somewhere doing lyrium experiments on humans. With predictable results.

But the galaxy is still here.

[lovgreno]

Dean_the_Young wrote...But the galaxy is still here.

Perhaps Cerberus janitor Shepard stopped it before it spread. As usual.

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Illusive Man would so try and make every human a Mage.

*points at human biotics*

[Patius Mehaffius]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Illusive Man would so try and make every human a Mage.

*points at human biotics*

Yeah, but I could imagine things being slightly more um, dangerous, if there were a bunch of abominations and demons runing around.


Although, I wonder what would win, reaper or a few pride demons?

[Dave of Canada]

Patius Mehaffius wrote...

Although, I wonder what would win, reaper or a few pride demons?

Abomination Reaper?

[Dean_the_Young]

Or indoctrinated abominations. Which, since they're almost pure id (or was it super-ego?), wouldn't be outrageous at all.