1381 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

If you have the full beta leak script, search for the word *spoiler*"Sanctuary"*spoiler* and you'll see a pretty good reason why nobody should take their side.

I read it....And?

Next time, make sure the spoiler-text stays invisible. Luckily, this time it was just a name without context.

Modifié par didymos1120, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:19 .

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

[onelifecrisis]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

Heh, so I wasn't far off with the hell thing...

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

Far from it; the context is nothing alike.

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

Far from it; the context is nothing alike.

True, Cerberus is doing what it has to do. Which makes the tragedy of the (lack of ) Renegade path all the more sad.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

ERm..where exactly? I must have missed it.

While there's no denying that what they did is horrible, the apparent payoff for humantiy - and the galaxy at large - is massive.

Like it or not, it seems that the ones to discover how to actually stop the reapers is Cerberus.

[Seboist]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

ERm..where exactly? I must have missed it.

While there's no denying that what they did is horrible, the apparent payoff for humantiy - and the galaxy at large - is massive.

Like it or not, it seems that the ones to discover how to actually stop the reapers is Cerberus.

They truly are humanity's guardian.

Modifié par Seboist, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:43 .

[msantos]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I read it....And?

And Cerberus shows that they have become the thing they sought to destroy.

Exactly!!!

But as far as vilainous factions go, Cerberus has one heck of track record that was clearly demonstrated way back in ME1 and continues on into ME3.  By now, there should be no doubt to the majority of folks who follow this IP what Cerberus is really all about.

Of course, in the end it is all about your own personal afinities and resulting interpretation of the events as they have been portraied in the games, novels and comics:  Some will see Cerberus as an impediment and embarrassment to humanity with very few honorable accomplishments to mention, and others will regard them as the protetctors of human centric and single minded survivalist idealism where the ends always justify the means.

On this note, despite having been a major vilain in ME1 even Saren had some "good" in him and I cannot help but to see a minor parallel of irony between Saren and TIM in that you are left with one of many moral lessons: "One must guard against becoming what one seeks to destroy.


Cheers

Modifié par msantos, 18 novembre 2011 - 01:48 .

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Ahaha, that was an hilarious contradiction LS. If you are an objectivist, how the **** can you proclaim to be able to say that the other side has equal legitimacy at morals, with the only differentiator being who wins or survives is "good"?

Man, you are utterly confused, at either what you believe or what you are saying.

You seem to be the one confused here.
Who sez I have to believe the validity of other side to be able to argue it?
Playing the devils advocate is the phrase, I belive.

It's almost an insult to think a human mind is so inflexible it isn't even capable to comprehend the arguments of the other side, or see the logic behind it.

Except what you said wasn't playing devil's advocate. You were arguing for moral relativism. As I said, either you are confused at what you believe or how you express it.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Except I know what I said. I'm not confused at all. Go trough the posts again and read carefully.

What I argue does not have to necessarily be what I believe. I know, a shocking concept to some fundamentalists here.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm..where exactly? I must have missed it.

While there's no denying that what they did is horrible, the apparent payoff for humantiy - and the galaxy at large - is massive.

Like it or not, it seems that the ones to discover how to actually stop the reapers is Cerberus.

In cased you missed it, Cerberus' goal is: *spoiler* to control the Reapers, not destroy them. That's why they're trying to stop Shepard. Shepard on the other hand, has blueprints of a weapon that could stop the Reapers and not let their immense power be controlled by one man.*spoiler*

They have done absolutely nothing to help humanity against the Reapers when they needed it the most.

[Cloaking_Thane]

If you read the books it's painfully obvious, in the games only it's marginally ambiguous, but still to many obvious what they are.

Modifié par Cloaking_Thane, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:12 .

[Swampthing500]

Given what Cerebus has done to the humans they claim they are trying to protect (assassination, torture, experimentation), I can regard them with much sympathy.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

If you read the books it's painfully obvious, in the games only it's marginally ambiguous, but still to many obvious what they are.

Yeah, the novels really show Cerberus' best side. 

[Arkitekt]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Except I know what I said. I'm not confused at all. Go trough the posts again and read carefully.

What I argue does not have to necessarily be what I believe. I know, a shocking concept to some fundamentalists here.

Ah. No. And its not shocking at all. Hypocrisy abounds everywhere...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

ERm..where exactly? I must have missed it.

While there's no denying that what they did is horrible, the apparent payoff for humantiy - and the galaxy at large - is massive.

Like it or not, it seems that the ones to discover how to actually stop the reapers is Cerberus.

In cased you missed it, Cerberus' goal is: *spoiler* to control the Reapers, not destroy them. That's why they're trying to stop Shepard. Shepard on the other hand, has blueprints of a weapon that could stop the Reapers and not let their immense power be controlled by one man.*spoiler*

They have done absolutely nothing to help humanity against the Reapers when they needed it the most.

And how does that NOT stop the reapers from destroying humanity? And making humanity the greatest power in the galaxy?

LOL.
Are you even listening to yourself here?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Arkitekt wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Except I know what I said. I'm not confused at all. Go trough the posts again and read carefully.

What I argue does not have to necessarily be what I believe. I know, a shocking concept to some fundamentalists here.

Ah. No. And its not shocking at all. Hypocrisy abounds everywhere...

That ain't no hypocrisy bub.

You need some time alone with adictionary methinks.

[phimseto]

 Because without Cerebrus resurrecting Sheperd, the galaxy would have no chance against the Reapers.

Therefore, Cerebrus = fighting chance for the galaxy to not be harvested.

Gotta count for something.  

Modifié par phimseto, 18 novembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[Arkitekt]

You need some time alone with adictionary methinks.

I don't need no "adictions", thank you. What you need is to understand that whenever you quote someone with spoilers, they will appear without the hiding technique your forum interlocutors went to so much trouble to make. This has been told to you before, but hey.

[HiroVoid]

Meh. I use color when I post spoilers, but my grasp is that if you're still here, don't blame anyone, but yourself when you get spoiled.

[gh0st wh1sp3r]

While Cerberus revived Shepard, they did so with the intent to use him as a tool, nothing more. If you paid attention to the beginning conversation between Jack Harper (or T.I.M., as everyone insists) and Miranda Lawson, you'd realize that they're using him for his reputation in order to achieve their goals - there's a catch to his resurrection.

Cerberus claims to be a defender of humanity, whilst experimenting on humans and aliens alike in order to achieve said "goal." If you defend them, then you defend the ends-justify-the-means method. This is different than a sacrifice scenario like on Virmire or the Arrival DLC, where EJtM morality doesn't factor in - in a torture/experimentation scenario, your choices are: torture/experiment or don't. It's not a life-or-death situation. The only way Cerberus could be what it says it wants to be would be if it were essentially a private army that actively and publicly patrolled human colonies. Acting under the guise of espionage, Cerberus slinks closer to corruption.

Cerberus is nothing more than a spacefaring version of the Ku Klux Klan or Taliban, "defending humanity" through terrorist tactics. Essentially, nothing more than a glorified conglomeration of terrorist cells. Read the novels for the whole story of Cerberus. All terrorist groups can be justified as defending the interests of a particular sect. The people who defend them just aren't paying attention.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Martin Sheen said that The Illusive Man is a horrible person. I also think that Cerberus is nothing more than an off books part of the Systems Alliance, and that's how TIM gets his funding via slush accounts through private individuals, but it all comes from the SA.

We haven't been back to earth. How do we know just how democratic earth really is? I would guess it's probably a quasi-fascist world.

[Nightwriter]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


For the greater good and benefit of the humans at large.

The thing is, we need to assess whether Cerberus actually has achieved this, and that their methods are right.  As I have said before, 'greater good' for TIM, may not mean greater good for everyone else.  For example, Stalin's extensive and brutal purges in 1930s and 1950s USSR were done becasue Stalin and the ruling Communist party decreed that it was for the 'greater good' of Russia as a whole.  Indeed, the purges of the military before the second world war led Russia being worse off when war with Germany finally arrived.  Futhermore Hitler felt that for the greater good of Germany (Im not counting this as Godwin's law because I think its a legitimate example) the territory and previous land of Germany had to be reclaimed.  However, this action led to WW2, millions of German lives lost, the countries infrastructure destroyed etc.  Im just trying to make you see that even if TIM has good intentions, (although I don't think he does), this doesn't necccesarily mean that what he thinks will benefit humanity actually will.

And what you or Shep think it's best for humanity doesn't necessarily mean it is.

Everoyne follows their own belief. So it would be an act of ultimate hypocrisy to call TIM out on that, when Shep(guided by you) is doing the same thing - making important decisions guided by his own idea of the greater good.

Not hypocritical at all actually. If someone makes a harmful and unethical decision it isn't somehow "okay" simply because I also make decisions. TIM has pretty thoroughly failed to explain how torturing children helped humanity in any way at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

When did he do or authorize that?

Certainly not Pragia.

[link2673]

Eh... thanks for revealing that spoiler Lotion Soronnar, really appreciate that.