1381 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

sponge56 wrote...
Nice side step of my point on racsism.  Also how exactly is humanity exploited by the Council then?

They give us worlds in the Attican Traverse to colonize, thus strengthening the hold of the Council in the Galaxy. However, if humanity is attacked, like what happened with Eden Prime, they refuse to lift a finger to help on grounds that it is too close to the Terminus Systems and it's a purely human matter.
Even after humanity joins the Council, we are expected to contribute precious ships to the Council fleet but again, once we are attacked, the other races don't do anything.
Also, Cerberus is not inherently racist. For example, Cerberus created the only known Biotic supressant drug but you don't see them attacking Asari colonies with it.
Cerberus does not seek to enslave the other races. It exists to protect humanity and it's interests against the aliens if we have to.

Ummm yes new problems arise which need to be overcome, but Cerberus doesn't influence galactic politics on a whole does it?  All the meanignfull trade negotioations and adavancements have been done by the Alliance, not Cerberus. 

 Not true. For example, the cooperation between Humans and Turians that lead to the construction of the first ever Stealth Frigate, the Normandy SR1, was actually suggested by Cerberus.
Another example, Cerberus put Charles Saracinno as the head of the Terra Firma party who can actually get a seat on the parliament. Who knows how many other important decisions were manipulated by Cerberus.

And so what?  Numbers arent anything, and humanity has a large enough fleet that the galaxy is stated as being afraid of a war between humanity and the Turians which would likely mean disaster for both races.

So? Having a large fleet is not everything. The Alliance is the face of Humanity, through it we can extablish diplomatic relations with the others species and it also disencourages them of picking a fight with Earth.
Cerberus is a black ops organization. The only difference between it and the Spectres or the STG is that Cerberus is not sponsored by the human government.
what Cerberus does is not supposed to appear on the news, however, that does not make it any less important. Let's suppose that a war with the Turians did break out. But look at that, thanks to Cerberus we have thousands of expendable shock troopers composed of Creepers, Husks and Rachni clones.
Take a guess as to who wins this war. And it was not the Alliance who saved the humans in the Terminus System, were they?
Cerberus is needed.

Yeah, because autocratic regimes have a reputation for being good havent they .  Also, this is about Humanity, not the Council.  Humanity is run by the Alliance Parliament

No system of government is perfect. If Cerberus leadership ever becomes corrupt, then it must be replaced.
I'd say that, after ME3, Cerberus requires new leadership.

[GodWood]

sponge56 wrote...
Its not an allegation, its a fact.  Ceberus IS a racist organisation.

Not really. 

And racism of any form is disgusting, irrational,

Again, not really. Racism against Reapers seems pretty justified. 

And what utter rubbish, the worlds best and brightest have been, drumroll.. extraordinary people.  Whether they be compassionate, cowardly, brave etc.  And what an ubelieveably ridiculopus assertion to make.

Lol wtf?

[Melra]

sponge56 wrote...

There is no real plausibile explanation as to how some people on these forums can constantly defend Cerberus.

1)  Cerberus is an inherently RACIST/SPECIEST organisation.  They aim to make humanity the dominant power in the galaxy, subjugating the other races.  I don't understand how so many people on these forums can defend such as organisation.  The Mass Effects series makes it obvious that all races are fundamentally 'human' in regards to their emotions and core beliefs.  The only things which separate the races are some cultural and political differences.  The mantra of 'humanity has to be protected' has disturbing resonances to real life White Supremicist organisations, but I hopefully doubt that those defending Ceberus would defend this outlook.

2) Humanity doesn't really need to ascend.  A war with the other alien species is highly unlikely or even impossible due to the size of Humanity's fleet.  While not as large as the Turians, it poses a significant enough threat so that war would be very costly for both sides.  Also, Humanity is constantly given more and more powers and freedom by the Council in a very quick space of time, so why do we need such an organisation?

3) Many pro-cerberus supporters go on about how Cerberus represents and acts for humanity.  It does nothing of the sort.  Cerberus acts on the behalf of the Illusive Man, an individual figure who calls all the shots in his organisation.  The Alliance is run by elected officials who are voted into their respective positions, who elected the Illusive Man?  His funders trust he will act with humanity's best interests, but I doubt they know or have a say on a ything that he actually does.

Why you can't be reasoned with:

1) Yar brain be not functioning on dem proper standards.

2) Read point number 1.

3.) *facepalm* Just... no

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...



Actually they are. They judge races to be worthy or not of represenation and authority. They regard all those below them as "lesser". Cerberus is not supremacist in the least. It doesn't judge the other races at all.

......what?.  Cerberus doesn't judge other races? Really?  Evidence in both games + basicaly all the lore contradicts this view.  And if they regarded them as lesser how did anyone ever join into the Council?  As the Elcor ambassador says, volus territory expanded ten fold since becoming a member of the Citadel.

So what is your point? Humanity should hold itself back? Why?

If it can become stronger it should. The krogan once had a might fleet too, by the way.

No, wasn't my point whatsoever.  Humanity is strong at the moment, and is getting stronger.  So why should Cerberus exist?  Its aims of giving humanity power are pointless seeing as how humanity has boatloads of it!

Your "point" is a crappy one. You ignore the fauls of the Alliance and judge TIM unworthy of deciding what he thinks is best. Everyone can't vote on it. The species is a goddamn democracy. TIM has the influence. Those with power use it. That's the way the world works. However even TIM is answerable to his supporters. He doesn't run Cerberus alone.

The Alliance has nothing really to do with it, its about the morality of Cerberus.  And what evidence is there that he is answerable to his supporters.  All weve seen of TIM is that he is the one taking the shots and authorising the projects.

Modifié par sponge56, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[sponge56]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

[But the Council already is a dictatorship, just not with one ruling over the other twelve, but three over the other ten.

The difference is negligible.

Ummm no, the Council runs in a similar way to the EU, with member states having the most power based on their importance.  However each individual country/ race is soverign

[HiroVoid]

sponge56 wrote...
......what?.  Cerberus doesn't judge other races? Really?  Evidence in both games + basicaly all the lore contradicts this view.  And if they regarded them as lesser how did anyone ever join into the Council?  As the Elcor ambassador says, volus territory expanded ten fold since becoming a member of the Citadel.

Err...I'll answer this one.  Volus territorry has expanded ten fold since becoming a member of the citadel.  Do you actually know how LONG they've been a member of the citadel, and how puny ten fold seems in that amount of time?

[sponge56]

GodWood wrote...

Again, not really. Racism against Reapers seems pretty justified. 

Umm no it doesn't.  Hating them because they of their race (Organic/ machine hybrid) would be a racist view.  Hating them because of the fact that they want to kill everything is different

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Three races have power and the others have none. The Council also employs secret police who have the freedom to violate the rights of Citadel affiliated citizens with no oversight or accountability. The Council is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

One man has power, the others have none.  Cerberus employs assasins, messed up experiments on kids, mass murder, and ignore ALL galactic laws just as much as the spectres do.  Cerberus is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

[GodWood]

sponge56 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Again, not really. Racism against Reapers seems pretty justified. 

Umm no it doesn't.  Hating them because they of their race (Organic/ machine hybrid) would be a racist view.  Hating them because of the fact that they want to kill everything is different

No, hating Reapers is racist, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

You filthy racist.

[AtreiyaN7]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

TIM isn't interested in Humanity, TIM is interested in the power he can gain, or did people miss the conversation just before the end of the suicide run where even Miranda tendered her resignation or the final conversation between Shep and TIM after the suicide run.

TIM is concerned about TIM, not humanity and makes Miranda's father seem like the salt of the earth by comparison. From what I have seen in the games so far, TIM is merely using humanity to achieve his own personal goals; he isn't interested in making humans the top of the heap, he wants to be the top of the heap, no matter the cost.

This is pretty much what I've always said about TIM. And it's all due the final conversation after I handed him the base. What he said seemed to indicate that he is motivated by a desire for personal power, nothing more. The whole "advancing the cause of humanity" thing is, as far as I'm concerned, just a front to achieve his goal of becoming a bloody galactic emperor with everyone, human and non-humans, subject to his will. I immediately did an about-face after that speech and ran the suicide mission again just so that I could keep the base out of his hands.

[sponge56]

GodWood wrote...

No, hating Reapers is racist, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

You filthy racist.

Again, no it is not.  If white men came and killed my family, I would hate the men because they killed my family.  I wouldnt hate them because they were white. Same with reapers.  A legitimate reason for hate, the genocide of the entire galaxy is a reason to dsilike them.  Being racist would be to say that we should hate the reapers because of the fact that they are machines

Modifié par sponge56, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:49 .

[HiroVoid]

Well, Illusive Man was willing to put his own life on the line to stop Grayson before he could escape in Retribution. He even told Kai Leng he made the wrong choice when he saved him instead of taking care of Grayson.

[IanPolaris]

GodWood wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Again, not really. Racism against Reapers seems pretty justified. 

Umm no it doesn't.  Hating them because they of their race (Organic/ machine hybrid) would be a racist view.  Hating them because of the fact that they want to kill everything is different

No, hating Reapers is racist, regardless of the reasoning behind it.

You filthy racist.

When one species by their actions or even existance have committed themselves to a path that prohibits peaceful coexistance, then racism (and in the most extreme case genocide) may be justified.  That's about the only time that can be said.  It's not a moral failing to eradicate a race that really does want to eradicate yours.

-Polaris

[Golden Owl]

Edit....

Modifié par Golden Owl, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:51 .

[GodWood]

IanPolaris wrote...
When one species by their actions or even existance have committed themselves to a path that prohibits peaceful coexistance, then racism (and in the most extreme case genocide) may be justified.

Was this not my original point?

[Volus Warlord]

Selene Moonsong wrote...

TIM isn't interested in Humanity, TIM is interested in the power he can gain, or did people miss the conversation just before the end of the suicide run where even Miranda tendered her resignation or the final conversation between Shep and TIM after the suicide run.

TIM is concerned about TIM, not humanity and makes Miranda's father seem like the salt of the earth by comparison. From what I have seen in the games so far, TIM is merely using humanity to achieve his own personal goals; he isn't interested in making humans the top of the heap, he wants to be the top of the heap, no matter the cost.

You're making a legitimate attempt at debate, so I'll debate this rather than the rambling.

Say TIM is the power-hungry egomaniac you make him out to be. Even if that's the case, that does not make Cerberus inherently evil or wrong. If a leader within the organization fails, he can be replaced, even TIM, and Cerberus and go forward on a clean slate. Why ruthlessly butcher and shutter the organization as a whole?

[IanPolaris]

GodWood wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
When one species by their actions or even existance have committed themselves to a path that prohibits peaceful coexistance, then racism (and in the most extreme case genocide) may be justified.

Was this not my original point?

I don't think so.  You seemed to be making a case for hypocrisy but that case falls apart.  The Reapers for whatevfer reason simply can not coexist with advanced organic life and so it's not a moral failing to wish to destroy them all (and be racist against them).  The same applies to the Heretic Geth.  It's a moral point that Legion makes in ME2, an Legion is quite right.

It's the only valid reason, i.e. them or us (and when it's 'them' that's forcing the choice).

-Polaris

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Everyone loves to heap on accusations at the end of ME2 for some reason.

What did TIM say or do that indicated he was interested in personal power? If he wanted power he'd have an identity instead of purposefully maintaining a low profile.

Or maybe he keeps a low profile because hes wanted by preety much every race on charges of terrorism?

[GodWood]

sponge56 wrote...
A legitimate reason for hate, the genocide of the entire galaxy is a reason to dsilike them.

Indeed it is.
But it also makes YOU a racist. 

Being racist would be to say that we should hate the reapers because of the fact that they are machines

So if I hate all black people for a reason other then their skin colour it's not racist?

IanPolaris wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Was this not my original point?

I don't think so.

It was.
He said racism of any form is 'irrational'. I disagreed and said racism against the Reapers seems pretty rational/justified.


Don't complicate it more then that.

Modifié par GodWood, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Everyone loves to heap on accusations at the end of ME2 for some reason.

What did TIM say or do that indicated he was interested in personal power? If he wanted power he'd have an identity instead of purposefully maintaining a low profile.

Not true. It's called being the power behind the throne.  TIM would rather have puppets generate the blowback for him while he pulls the strings.

-POlaris