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[someone else]

reading through this entire thread, I wonder if the "bad writing/good writing" debate and satisfaction/dissatisfaction with BW's disposition of Cerebrus (among other plot element) isn't an artifact of this very new medium and the scope of the project.

ME represents a major step forward into a new literary genre - truly interactive fiction has been brutted about since computer tech reached the mass market. I do not believe it has ever been implemented on the epic scale attempted by BW with the ME franchise.

ME, imo is the medium's coming out party, but still suffers growing pains. Obviously. the branching options are too limited to explore many plausible and compelling plot lines. To do so would mean not just different endings, but fundamentally different narratives. This is hard enough to do in print - the game format raises the complexity exponentially. BW had to select a very limited number of choices from a very large range of potential plotlines - it was inevitable that any decision set would delight, satisfy, disappoint and ****** off significant factions of their base.

So my view is not "bad writing," but rather media-based constraints, and ultimately a coin-flip decision about how to resolve the plot.

Modifié par someone else, 21 novembre 2011 - 03:22 .

[Arkitekt]

Yes, someone else, that is my main gripe with smudboy's fans, that they are so willing to nitpick every (admiteddly existent) error, hole and inconsistency, as well as lesser "writing", without a second's thought that one can't build Rome in a day. They will argue on and on that this "genre" is not new, that lots of other games with branching stories were made, etc.,etc., displaying that they aren't remotely aware of how gigantic of an enterprise this type of games are.

The problem may be however that we may never get much better than this, given how tight schedules for developers are to create games and ship them.

[sponge56]

Arkitekt wrote...

Yes, someone else, that is my main gripe with smudboy's fans, that they are so willing to nitpick every (admiteddly existent) error, hole and inconsistency, as well as lesser "writing", without a second's thought that one can't build Rome in a day. They will argue on and on that this "genre" is not new, that lots of other games with branching stories were made, etc.,etc., displaying that they aren't remotely aware of how gigantic of an enterprise this type of games are.

The problem may be however that we may never get much better than this, given how tight schedules for developers are to create games and ship them.

Interesting, the games are put into a whole new light if you think about it like that

[someone else]

sponge56 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Yes, someone else, that is my main gripe with smudboy's fans, that they are so willing to nitpick every (admiteddly existent) error, hole and inconsistency, as well as lesser "writing", without a second's thought that one can't build Rome in a day. They will argue on and on that this "genre" is not new, that lots of other games with branching stories were made, etc.,etc., displaying that they aren't remotely aware of how gigantic of an enterprise this type of games are.

The problem may be however that we may never get much better than this, given how tight schedules for developers are to create games and ship them.

Interesting, the games are put into a whole new light if you think about it like that

That was the point of the post -

and to Arkitekt's comment - never say never - look at the present mod community, and what has gone with games like Civ (i am a IV fan - dont like V and this is NOT the place to get into it)  - Point is who would have thought 10-15 years ago that the gaming fan community would be creating entirely new games out of commercial ones

All that's needed to fulfill whatever your heart desires is for BW to issue an SDK or someone to crack the game files.  Clearly a much bigger task than building Fall from Heaven - but in time, I can envisage future games allowing dialog rewrites, scenario construction  and even games or expansion paks issued ab initio as "kits' from which you may assemble your own story, complete with surprises and unintended consequences -

just keep in mind how incredibly empowering that little piece of silcone chugging away on your desk really is...

Modifié par someone else, 21 novembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[Arkitekt]

Hah. Well, there's a lot of developing material inside of ME that makes me doubt all of that goodness coming from modding communities.... Don't get me wrong. I love it (see what, for example, the community is doing with Freespace 2... a decade old game), but the cream of the cream is still made with the money incentive and very high densities of work hours combined with licenced technologies...

[someone else]

Arkitekt wrote...

Hah. Well, there's a lot of developing material inside of ME that makes me doubt all of that goodness coming from modding communities.... Don't get me wrong. I love it (see what, for example, the community is doing with Freespace 2... a decade old game), but the cream of the cream is still made with the money incentive and very high densities of work hours combined with licenced technologies...

Now look - if we're getting biotics and FTL tech in just about 150 years and galactic capabilites soon thereafter, we'd better be able to mod a game like ME in our sleep sometime very soon...

[Arkitekt]

Sure. But look at it from the other pov. If it's easy for the mod community, then it is easier for the gaming industry. Which means that they will always be one, two or more like three steps ahead of you in that regard (when you are able to finish something like Project Mesa, Mass Effect 4 will already be in the shelves...)

[someone else]

...in a pathetic attempt to get this back on topic [sincere apologies to the OP] it may be that groups will form around particular iterations or story lines - there are already markets for virtual gear paid with real money -

Cerebrus Forever could attract such a following & those with dominance on their minds might well invest, perhaps substantially in developing, strengthening and extending its power - who knows, it might even attempt virtual attacks on the Alliance, or the Bastions of Bataria. ME is going multiplayer - it may be the future will hold virtual communities - Cerebrus could evolve itself from fiction to [at least virtual] reality.

[Arkitekt]

Well, to counter those points...

For one, it is not contrived, since it's the very initial contact with reaper artifacts that urged TIM to create Cerberus itself, with the goals that it was. "Retconned"? You could make that case, but if retconned, it's a good one imho;

For two, "overplayed" more than subjective is irrelevant, since it is part of the theme of ME, which is related to the Lovercraftian mythos.... ;

For three, you are assuming TIM is indoctrinated. Aren't you?

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

For one it is contrived that TIM ever came into contact with Reaper artifacts in the first place.

Secondly, indoctrination is at this point a little overplayed.

Thirdly, indoctrination diminishes who a character is. It is an excuse to make a character do anything you want them too without regard to who they are or what they believe.

Do you truly find Evolution contrived?

[FoxShadowblade]

Generally speaking, people in a sane state of mind don't usually defend a group that uses terrorist tactics. ...Just saying.

And I have to agree with Saphra, Indoctrination is being used to an extreme in the story at this point. It is not quite overplayed, but getting there.

I'm personally fearing that there will be a part when it turns out a squadmate is indoctrinated the entire time and everyone yells "M. Night Shalamagag plot twist!"

Modifié par FoxShadowblade, 21 novembre 2011 - 04:57 .

[Someone With Mass]

If indoctrination is overplayed, then so are the Reapers.

Also, we've seen instance where people have resisted indoctrination until a certain point. It doesn't diminish their characters one bit. Well, that can be said about the people that actually have a character, anyway.

[FoxShadowblade]

Someone With Mass wrote...

If indoctrination is overplayed, then so are the Reapers.

Also, we've seen instance where people have resisted indoctrination until a certain point. It doesn't diminish their characters one bit. Well, that can be said about the people that actually have a character, anyway.

The Reapers are overplayed. They are the villians, they have to be. 

[Arkitekt]

So you failed to understand the meaning of "over"... kthnks.

[Sisterofshane]

someone else wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

For one it is contrived that TIM ever came into contact with Reaper artifacts in the first place.

Secondly, indoctrination is at this point a little overplayed.

Thirdly, indoctrination diminishes who a character is. It is an excuse to make a character do anything you want them too without regard to who they are or what they believe.

Do you truly find Evolution contrived?

In that context, I think that the contact with the artifact is the turning point for TIM's character, if not the very defining moment.  Part of TIM's appeal is trying to determine if he was indocrtinated or not, and seeing how much of his background parallels' Shepards - are we heading down the same path?  Would your Shep do anything to not end up like TIM?
And would you think this Saphra had there not already been a major game antagonist who had already been indoctrinated?  For me, it was the indoctrination that made Saren's character more contrived.  He was his own character with his own motivations, and they were all flushed down the toilet when he came into contact with Sovereign.

[msantos]

Saphra Deden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why is it poorly put together that an organisation following a man who had already been influenced by Reapers become indoctrinated? 

For one it is contrived that TIM ever came into contact with Reaper artifacts in the first place.

That's right. If I recall correctly, TIM did came relatively close to the reaper artifact earlier on... although not as close as his friend Ben and others (humans & Turians) did.
Quite possibly, the post ME2 events (retribution) also offered additional opportunity for slow-low levels of indoctrination to take place.

Those "reaperized/husk" eyes in ME2 also led to fair amount of speculation in this area too... which some believe is a good clue to what was to come next.

Cheers

Modifié par msantos, 21 novembre 2011 - 05:18 .

[DonutsDealer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why is it poorly put together that an organisation following a man who had already been influenced by Reapers become indoctrinated? 

For one it is contrived that TIM ever came into contact with Reaper artifacts in the first place.

Secondly, indoctrination is at this point a little overplayed.

Thirdly, indoctrination diminishes who a character is. It is an excuse to make a character do anything you want them too without regard to who they are or what they believe.

1-He did, look at his eyes.
2-Overplayed how? You see Saren(very well executed) and Kenson. Only two characters, that's not overplayed I think.
3-See Saren, a deep character who was indoctrinated. Besides, as far as we know TIM is not indoctrinated, he is working with the reapers and we have to find out why.

[Arkitekt]

People still think that TIM is indoctrinated.... very funny.

[someone else]

TIM certainly got zapped - and not as bad as Ben - Saphra - did you think his eyes are contacts? He's shown signs of exposure/infection since the opening movie of ME2.

And Saren, too - via the one on Palaven - and he is inevitably drawn toward his rendevous with Sovereign [Revelation]

Instead of seeing TIM and Cerebrus as thoroughly evil - remember one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter - Viva Che - there is a strong tragic (in the original sense of the word) thread here - the would-be hero brought low through hubris (overweening pride, for those without a parent steeped in the classics) TIM and Cerebrus are undone by the very passion of their committment to the cause, and apparently brings ruin down upon this version of the House of Atreus.

Just read your post after typing

"Yes. It was an entirely unnecessary retcon."

But what criteria (other than personal preference) makes any elaboration of this sprawling fiction "unnecessary"?

Modifié par someone else, 21 novembre 2011 - 05:17 .

[FoxShadowblade]

Arkitekt wrote...

People still think that TIM is indoctrinated.... very funny.

I doubt he is, I also doubt Cerberus troops are really attacking Shepard because their indoctrinated.

I think TIM is a tad sore from the verbal beating he endured in ME2.

[Arkitekt]

Also, TIM's eyes are evidence enough for me that Evolution is not a retcon, but actually just an exposition of his past as envisioned by the authors from the get go. But I know these evident facts won't deter the haters...