1381 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkitekt]

Yes that's 100% fair game. And I think we can still see that type of interesting confrontation with indoctrination.

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Indoctrination would be better if it were used either on Shepard or on people Shepard and his comrades are close to and/or care about. Being forced to kill a friend or loved one is tough, or finding out that you've been fighting against your own interests.

I agreee and would like to see something like that.   I don't disagree that indoctrination is pervasive - but what would you put in its place as a plot device for aligning characters with the dark side?  It is from a certain perspective the Reapers most potent weapon

[Arkitekt]

Well what Saphra is saying is, I think, that all this becomes much more interesting if the characters themselves side with the "dark side" for their own rational reasons, and, tragically, reaching that conclusion by trying to do "good". Which makes you wonder about your own reasons and question your own actions.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

someone else wrote...

I don't disagree that indoctrination is pervasive - but what would you put in its place as a plot device for aligning characters with the dark side? 

My goodness! I'm annoyed that I even have to explain this.

Here is an idea for how to put characters on the dark side: THEIR MOTIVATIONS!

Do the characters have a motive for joining with the enemy aside from indoctrination? Dean_the_Young made an excellent post about this where he talked about the kinds of people who might ally for the Reapers. They are a diverse group and most of them aren't even indoctrinated.

I'd be susceptible to throwing in with the Reapers and I'm not indoctrinated.

I'll provide you with a few examples myself:

1.) Human leaders might capitulate with the Reapers in a vain attempt to save their constituents on Earth.

2.) Batarians might help the Reapers as a way to get back at and weaken their enemies.

3.) Geth might help the Reapers because they wish to attain their level of technological sophistication (oh wait that happened!).

4.) A Spectre might help the Reapers because he believes destroying them is impossible and that only subservience will save anyone.

Strangely, I agree with this.  Indoctrination is an unecessary plot device.  What's more, it seems to be used like the Reapers "unbeatable" weapon, because as of yet, there is no known cure that exists.  Prime example was "Arrival".

What I hope to see happen is that we can use indoctrination as a method to defeat the Reapers (a la Saren's Avatar and Sovereign).  Let's take something incredibly tragic and meaningless and make it mean SOMETHING when it comes down to fighting against the Reapers.

[phimseto]

I will say this most of all: I will be *extremely* disappointed if Cerebrus gets the brush-off in ME3. That is to say, that they're written so villainously or black/white that it's the height of churlishness to support them. For all the morally reprehensible things that they do, there are compelling reasons to keep them around and there's the (yet to be fully explored) hypocrisy that the major powers all have similar (and in some cases state-sanctioned) groups.

How Cerebrus is written in ME3 is one of the things I am closely watching. I'm worried that they might pull a Fable 3. Instead of the great "choose between your lady love or these innocent protestors", we get what happens when you become king: "choose between this nice green forest or making the orphans work in the coal mines!"

That's actually one of the things I liked about DA2: the whole ten-year thing let you live out the consequences of your choices.

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I'd be susceptible to throwing in with the Reapers and I'm not indoctrinated.

I'll provide you with a few examples myself:

1.) Human leaders might capitulate with the Reapers in a vain attempt to save their constituents on Earth.

2.) Batarians might help the Reapers as a way to get back at and weaken their enemies.

3.) Geth might help the Reapers because they wish to attain their level of technological sophistication (oh wait that happened!).

4.) A Spectre might help the Reapers because he believes destroying them is impossible and that only subservience will save anyone.  

yes and you left out the biggest draw - the promise of immortality, shared racial memories, and the chance to continue for millions of years - better odds than face the human race, certainly

...but apart from the Vichy Republic, Krogan Uplift, [Geth I thought became sort cyber-true believers in a Reaper-made future, not a simple tech grab] and Saren's Choice - which I use as liberal short hand for your cited examples,  knowing what you know about the state of the protheans post incorporation, how could you possibly as an individual conscious entity seriously entertain such a choice?

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Frankly though, I think indoctrination is far more interesting in the aftermath of the Reaper War. It is thought control and the ability to control someone's thoughts has terrifying implications. Defeating the Reapers will not erase this technology from existence.

...hanging on to a few Thorian spores...

[phimseto]

Saphra, I hesitate to ask since I'm guessing you must know something from that leaked game script, but can you elaborate? Feel free to private message me if you're worried about posting publicly.

I know a lot of people who are going to be pretty disappointed if Cerberus gets the "Snidely Whiplash" villain treatment in ME3.

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Protheans were not fit to be a proper Reaper. We are. We know this is what the Reapers want with us. I don't think defeating the Reapers is a realistic possibility so I'd rather accept the change and go with the flow. Singularity will inevitably change us in strange ways regardless. I'll take the path of least resistance then.

Do we know this from evidence other than that the Collectors failed?   Maybe we don't make the grade either?  But I'm sure you familiar with the cut monolog [likely] from the derelict reaper - best argument for your case I've read though its only quasi-canon.

[Sisterofshane]

someone else wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Frankly though, I think indoctrination is far more interesting in the aftermath of the Reaper War. It is thought control and the ability to control someone's thoughts has terrifying implications. Defeating the Reapers will not erase this technology from existence.

...hanging on to a few Thorian spores...

^They haven't been studied, and my guess would be that you would need an actual THORIAN to manipulate the spores to actually counteract the effects of indoctrination.

And @ Saphra, I was thinking in terms of how, the more they control a target through indoctrination, the more vulnerable they make themselves to attack.  It may force people to submit themselves to indoctrination in order to take down the Reapers from *within*, so to speak.  It wouldn't be to far from what you would want, for example, with Shepards' loved ones or perhaps Shep himself submitting themselves to this for a greater chance at bringing down the Reaper's defenses.

And I hope post-galactic war is something they cover extensively, even after Shepard's story is finished.

[someone else]

Sisterofshane wrote...

^They haven't been studied, and my guess would be that you would need an actual THORIAN to manipulate the spores to actually counteract the effects of indoctrination.

I just want to grow my own Thorian - after all thats what spores are for...I think one would look nice in the corner of the tv room...

[someone else]

Saphra Deden wrote...

We hear this from Harbringer himself and we saw the Reaper they were building. Or did you think they were abducting humans in such large numbers (unprecedented numbers) for no reason?

...vigil tells us the protheans were harvested much the same...

ps how to you manage to quote two separate posts in the same response?

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

And @ Saphra, I was thinking in terms of how, the more they control a target through indoctrination, the more vulnerable they make themselves to attack.

Why would that make the Reapers vulnerable?

The same reason that Sovy was made vulnerable.  Destroying Saren's avatar obviously did something to Sovereign, and I suspect it has to do with the level of control that Sovy had to maintain over the avatar itself, exposing it somehow to Sheps' attacks, and weakening/stunning it when the avatar was destroyed.  If that can be duplicated, it makes it so that indoctrination is one of the Reapers most potent tools, but one that doesn't come without heavy risks, and it gives us a fighting chance, though not without great sacrifice and planning.

[Someone With Mass]

Mac Walters confirmed it in a tweet.

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The same reason that Sovy was made vulnerable.  Destroying Saren's avatar obviously did something to Sovereign,

No, there is no proof of that. It might be true, sure, but I want solid evidence. Why should it have any effect at all? I mean we killed tons of Harbringer avatars and nothing happened. I'd wager the fleet shooting at Sovereign had more to do with its death than anything else.

That's why I said *hope* -- otherwise indoctrination becomes ridiculously one-sided and overpowered.  And I agree, the avatars mean nothing if there isn't a fleet ready to destroy said avatars (or perhaps Harby was immune because he was linked through a third party, the collector general?).  It would be a welcome plot twist when it comes to indoctrination.

[Barquiel]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mac Walters confirmed it in a tweet.

Show me the tweet.

I think it doesn't make much sense but...


https://twitter.com/...911026790268928

[someone else]

Sisterofshane wrote...

indoctrination is one of the Reapers most potent tools, but one that doesn't come without heavy risks, and it gives us a fighting chance, though not without great sacrifice and planning.

good point - 

and inasmuch as Saphra feels we all should accept our doom, put on the white and orange (will there be creamsicles too, I wonder)  and go gentle into that good night, I wonder if there is a non-stupid way of winning (cf the Deus ex Machina thread) - perhaps Saphra might be persuaded to consider a different perspective?   (in the words of the immortal GlaDOS, ''HA HA, FAT CHANCE."