1381 réponses à ce sujet

[clipped_wolf]

Vasir made some great points about Cerberus: kidnapping children for biotic death camps, killing Marines on Akuze, assassinating Admirals who know too much.
The idea that to know what humanities limits are they must be tested, that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and similar thoughts have been around. Cerberus is a vile criminal organization that sadly is similar to real projects and organizations. Project MKULTRA anyone?
The idea that if you play nice others won't be nasty is just naive, but living by the mantra 'the ends justifies the means' is inhuman and such a mentality is responsible for criminal acts and real world atrocities.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vasir is in no position to judge anybody. No Spectre is.

The ends do justify the means. History proves this time and time again.

Okay. Then I'll let Earth burn while I find a way to stop the Reapers and to kill TIM.

The end justifies the means.

[Arppis]

Well all I can say is Cerberus is atleast poorly managed. Everything they do blast on their faces in the end. Just proves the point to see Cerberus working with reapers in the ME3.

But, atleast some good came out of it: they have gotten few pieces of tech that'll propably help in a long run and ofcourse bringing Shepard back. But I'd say that lllusive man is indeed for it for Illusive Man himself. People who fight to beter their own race positions ONLY are rarely the type who are in it for common good. Otherwise he would have acted more like it.

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vasir is in no position to judge anybody. No Spectre is.

The ends do justify the means. History proves this time and time again.

Examples then please

[Arppis]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay. Then I'll let Earth burn while I find a way to stop the Reapers and to kill TIM.

The end justifies the means.

If you feel it is the best way to survive then by all means. I suspect you and I have different ends in mind so I don't know what you hoped to prove to me with this.

Propably that end don't always justify the means.

[clipped_wolf]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vasir is in no position to judge anybody. No Spectre is.

The ends do justify the means. History proves this time and time again.

History is the study of bits that someone thinks is important afterwards.  Try living it.

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Others live in poverty so that we might live in luxury.

What?? How is that a good or desirable outcome?  Your saying its cool that someone made your clothes in a sweatshop as long as its nice and looks good on you 

Modifié par sponge56, 21 novembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[Arppis]

End justifies the means, is used by people who don't really sacrifice anything important to themselves as some lame excuse most of the time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Does Mass Effect: Evolution contradict any pre-established lore? No? Then it isn't a retcon. Boba Fett being revealed as a clone of Jango Fett isn't a retcon either, it is a further exploration of his character. Jeez, people on the internet needs to learn what a retcon is...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

The same reason that Sovy was made vulnerable.  Destroying Saren's avatar obviously did something to Sovereign,

No, there is no proof of that. It might be true, sure, but I want solid evidence. Why should it have any effect at all? I mean we killed tons of Harbringer avatars and nothing happened. I'd wager the fleet shooting at Sovereign had more to do with its death than anything else.

How do you know that killing all of Harbigners avatars didn't incapacitate Harbinger for a while after each of the avatars' death? Why do you think it doesn't just immediately possess another nearby Collector? Harbinger was in deep space for all of ME2, we have no idea wether or not killing its avatars had any effect on it.

[clipped_wolf]

What if you do murder, torture, and experiments on sentient beings and have NO practical results? Did the ends justify the means? Cerberus says: yes, we have learned what not to do. So now, let us forcibly retire the scientists and go about this problem at a different angle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Saphra Deden wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vasir is in no position to judge anybody. No Spectre is.

The ends do justify the means. History proves this time and time again.

Examples then please

Others live in poverty so that we might live in luxury.

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...


Yes it is because otherwise I wouldn't be able to afford that nice sweater, or my Xbox, or my just about any other good that I take for granted in my day to day life. That's economics, son. Prices are affordable because people in less well-off countries are being paid pennies to manufacture **** for us.

Welcome to reality.

1) Its not 'economics', slave labour working conditions is not an essential part of economics.  Also you can buy clothes that werent made in sweat shops and are fair trade etc, so you don't have to support that part of the industry.  Theres a factory near me which makes basic things and those that work there are paid little, but they are not paid slaves wages.  All your talking about is one part of a seriosuly messed up system.

2) It's also nothing to do with the 'greater good', as the people working those horrific jobs most likely outnumber those who benefit from them.  So who is the 'greater' in the equation?

[clipped_wolf]

Saphra wrote: I killed a ****load of them and it never slowed him down, not once. Often he'd create a new one as soon as the old one was dead.


It took a couple seconds for him to do that. Was it lag or did he need to reboot a portion of himself to try again?

Modifié par clipped_wolf, 21 novembre 2011 - 08:20 .

[Sisterofshane]

Saphra Deden wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

Also you can buy clothes that werent made in sweat shops and are fair trade etc, so you don't have to support that part of the industry.

I could but then I'd be spending more money. I prefer to save money when possible and that means buying cheaper goods.

sponge56 wrote...

2) It's also nothing to do with the 'greater good', as the people working those horrific jobs most likely outnumber those who benefit from them.  So who is the 'greater' in the equation?

Not my problem.

The problem with the "ends justify the means" is that there are often multiple ways to achieve said ends.

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...


I could but then I'd be spending more money. I prefer to save money when possible and that means buying cheaper goods.

So your basicaly a selfish ******?  How about you get a moral code, you might enjoy life a little bit more

Not my problem.

Well, im afraid it is.  Your own argument of the ends justifies the means is linked to the greater good argument.  If the good generated is less than the bad suffered by the people making the clothes, then its not 'for the greater good' is it.  You can't just dismiss things you don't like in someones argument, it becomes rather see through.

[EmperorSahlertz]

sponge56 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...


I could but then I'd be spending more money. I prefer to save money when possible and that means buying cheaper goods.

So your basicaly a selfish ******?  How about you get a moral code, you might enjoy life a little bit more

Not my problem.

Well, im afraid it is.  Your own argument of the ends justifies the means is linked to the greater good argument.  If the good generated is less than the bad suffered by the people making the clothes, then its not 'for the greater good' is it.  You can't just dismiss things you don't like in someones argument, it becomes rather see through.

I don't think he has the mental capacity to understand that the line "the end justfies the means" usually means that the ends has to benefit the majority and/or be for the greater good. Like say, torture a man for him to reveal where he has hidden an armed nuclear bomb, and most certainly does NOT refer to letting billions of people live in poverty just so that he can get his precious Xbox.

[sponge56]

Saphra Deden wrote...


No, sweety. The ends can be whatever I want them to be and apply to whomever I want as well. It might only apply to me or it might apply to a nation or a galaxy. It can be anything.

No, thats not what it means.  The 'ends justifies the means' means that you do something abhoront or wrong in order to safeguard or protect others or information in the process, such as torture of terror suspects.  It does not mean whatever you decide to justify your messed up beliefs

Modifié par sponge56, 21 novembre 2011 - 08:41 .