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Why Cerberus cannot be defended


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#51
IanPolaris

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GodWood wrote...

sponge56 wrote...
A legitimate reason for hate, the genocide of the entire galaxy is a reason to dsilike them.

Indeed it is.
But it also makes YOU a racist.


No it doesn't at least without radically redefining the word because then everyone (rational) would be a 'racist'.  It's not racism to defend your species by eradicating another that for whatever reason can not or will not peacefully coexist with yours.  If peaceful coexistance IS possible and you persist, THEN you are racist.  Not before.

-Polariks

#52
sponge56

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GodWood wrote...

So if I hate all black people for a reason other then their skin colour it's not racist?


All reapers kill and destroy, therefore a legitimate reason for hatred.  However, black people do not all kill and destroy/ whatever your hypothetical universal dislike of them is.  So yes, the above comment IS racist as it is an irrational and unfounded dislike

#53
xCirdanx

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Saphra Deden wrote...

You can to this conclusion how? I think you are just assuming the worst about him to make it easier to justify hating him. You think he spent millions of credits on Shepard just so he could have a puppet?

Why did he stop the batarian assassination of the Council?

The way you've defined it TIM can't really do ANYTHING without you saying he is just making a power grab.

What should he do differently?


I think the books give a lot away on TIM´s ..character. You should read them. (now i´m making advertising someone help me..)-

I honestly don´t get the point of this thread :whistle:

#54
IanPolaris

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Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not true. It's called being the power behind the throne.  TIM would rather have puppets generate the blowback for him while he pulls the strings.

-POlaris


You can to this conclusion how? I think you are just assuming the worst about him to make it easier to justify hating him. You think he spent millions of credits on Shepard just so he could have a puppet?


Yes.  TIM uses Shepard as a front and a puppet multiple times in ME2.  TIM even admits this.  I don't entirely disagree with a couple of those cases, but he does do it.  At the very end, TIM makes it very clear that he doesn't recognize the line between "good for humanity" and "good for Cerberus/TIM" and that means he can not be trusted.

Why did he stop the batarian assassination of the Council?


Hello.  These are the same Batarians that would turn your planet into a glass parking lot without a second glance (see Terra Nova or ask Zaeed).  Care to bet that the rest of the galaxy would blame humans somehow?  For all their faults, the Coucil has been fairly prohuman (at least according to most of the galaxy), so I can easily see why Cerberus would want to keep them around...at least under TIM has a better alternate plan.

The way you've defined it TIM can't really do ANYTHING without you saying he is just making a power grab.

What should he do differently?


How about playing nice with others without stabbing them in the back?  Just putting it out there.....

-Polaris

#55
sponge56

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xCirdanx wrote...


I honestly don´t get the point of this thread :whistle:


To have a debate, why whats the usual point of a thread?

#56
HiroVoid

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So why did the Illusive Man put his life on the line to stop Grayson from leaving the station in Retribution if he's so concerned with his own self-preservation?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:04 .


#57
Volus Warlord

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sponge56 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

So if I hate all black people for a reason other then their skin colour it's not racist?


All reapers kill and destroy, therefore a legitimate reason for hatred.  However, black people do not all kill and destroy/ whatever your hypothetical universal dislike of them is.  So yes, the above comment IS racist as it is an irrational and unfounded dislike


Do you really know that for sure? You're just going off of Soveriegn's claims. How do you know he spoke for the Reapers as a whole?

#58
IanPolaris

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Volus Warlord wrote...

sponge56 wrote...

GodWood wrote...

So if I hate all black people for a reason other then their skin colour it's not racist?


All reapers kill and destroy, therefore a legitimate reason for hatred.  However, black people do not all kill and destroy/ whatever your hypothetical universal dislike of them is.  So yes, the above comment IS racist as it is an irrational and unfounded dislike


Do you really know that for sure? You're just going off of Soveriegn's claims. How do you know he spoke for the Reapers as a whole?


It's been confirmed by the protheans themselves, Harbinger (many times) as well as what little there is of the archaelogical record.  I think we pretty much do know "for sure".

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Nice to see you posting here Dr Kenson. 

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:07 .


#59
sponge56

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Volus Warlord wrote...


Do you really know that for sure? You're just going off of Soveriegn's claims. How do you know he spoke for the Reapers as a whole?


Aha, I don't, but I never said I did.  Godwood made the racism about reapers point so I was answering hypotheticaly to him

#60
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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IanPolaris wrote...

At the very end, TIM makes it very clear that he doesn't recognize the line between "good for humanity" and "good for Cerberus/TIM" and that means he can not be trusted.


Who says any such line exists in the first place?

Hello.  These are the same Batarians that would turn your planet into a glass parking lot without a second glance...


So?

#61
Kaiser Shepard

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sponge56 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

[But the Council already is a dictatorship, just not with one ruling over the other twelve, but three over the other ten.

The difference is negligible.


Ummm no, the Council runs in a similar way to the EU, with member states having the most power based on their importance.  However each individual country/ race is soverign

The EU is mostly just there to prevent France and Germany from going at each other's throats every few decades, with the rest basically being forced to join because A.) Peace between the two giants is more desireable for them or B.) They'd otherwise be excluded from the financial benefits the rest of the Eurozone enjoys (or rather, be treated as a third rate country by those in it). The only real reason the euro is there, aside from providing a strong alternative to the dollar on the international market, is to force the countries that have adapted it into gradually giving up their monetary (and thus political) sovereignty to the Union, which will eventually become an "United States of Europe" of sorts.

And trust me, few of the countries in it are all that happy about this. I assure you that if people were to hold referenda about keeping the euro and/or staying in the EU, most countries would vote against it.

Likewise, all the Council is, is a triumvirate of three (later four) giants between which a war would prove catastrophic for all of them, most of all because the outcome would be unpredictable: one of the giants may win, but one or more of the lesser races may also triumph over their former masters. Hence why working together into dominating over the rest is more desireable for them.

Like I said, the difference is negligible.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:11 .


#62
Golden Owl

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HiroVoid wrote...

So why did the Illusive Man put his life on the line to stop Grayson from leaving the station in Retribution if he's so concerned with his own self-preservation?

If I remember correctly...I am quite sure he didn't, he just got caught with his pants down so to speak, didn't he want Kai Leng to take the risk to go execute Greyson? tIM thoughts are included, he has no intention of becoming a martyr.

#63
IanPolaris

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Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

At the very end, TIM makes it very clear that he doesn't recognize the line between "good for humanity" and "good for Cerberus/TIM" and that means he can not be trusted.


Who says any such line exists in the first place?


I think we're done talking here.  If you can't see that there is a line and there is a difference between "good for humanity" and "good for Cereberus/TIM" then your moral compass is so skewed that further debate is pointless.

-Polaris

#64
GodWood

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IanPolaris wrote...
It's not racism to defend your species by eradicating another that for whatever reason

Correct, but it is racist to hate the 'species' that is doing so.

sponge56 wrote...
All reapers kill and destroy, therefore a legitimate reason for hatred.

What definition of racism are you using because it's certainly not the textbook one.
Whether the reasoning for the hatred of an entire species is rational or irrational is irrelevent.
If you hate the Reapers you are racist.

So yes, the above comment IS racist as it is an irrational and unfounded dislike

What above comment?

Anyways this discussion is quite dull. Accept you're racist and move on.

How about explaining what the **** your 'no great people were racist, they were extraordinary' nonsense meant?

#65
sponge56

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Ummm no, the Council runs in a similar way to the EU, with member states having the most power based on their importance.  However each individual country/ race is soverign

The EU is mostly just there to prevent France and Germany from going at each other's throats every few decades, with the rest basically being forced to join because A.) Peace between the two giants is more desireable for them or B.) They'd otherwise be excluded from the financial benefits the rest of the Eurozone enjoys (or rather, be treated as a third rate country by those in it). The only real reason the euro is there, aside from providing a strong alternative to the dollar on the international market, is to force the countries that have adapted it into gradually giving up monetary (and thus political) sovereignty to the Union, which will eventually become an "United States of Europe" of sorts.

And trust me, few of the countries in it are all that happy about it. I assure you that if people were to hold referendums about keeping the euro and/or staying in the EU, most countries would vote against it.


Yep, I know, I do live in Europe.  I was only making a distinction between the Council and an organisation in real life.  And thanks for your opinion, but using hypothetical opinions of the future of the EU as evidence doesn't really count towards anything Image IPB

Modifié par sponge56, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:13 .


#66
IanPolaris

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GodWood wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
It's not racism to defend your species by eradicating another that for whatever reason

Correct, but it is racist to hate the 'species' that is doing so.


Then 99.99% of the people are racist and the word loses meaning.  Racism is appropriate if that other race really is trying to wipe your species from existance.  In fact I'd be stunned if there wasn't hatred.  Hating the species that is trying to end your own does not make you a racist, however.  That term (racist) implies that you hate all other species/races than your own, and that doesn't follow.

-Polaris

#67
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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IanPolaris wrote...

I think we're done talking here.  If you can't see that there is a line and there is a difference between "good for humanity" and "good for Cereberus/TIM" then your moral compass is so skewed that further debate is pointless.

-Polaris


This happens a lot between us.

#68
HiroVoid

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Golden Owl wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

So why did the Illusive Man put his life on the line to stop Grayson from leaving the station in Retribution if he's so concerned with his own self-preservation?

If I remember correctly...I am quite sure he didn't, he just got caught with his pants down so to speak, didn't he want Kai Leng to take the risk to go execute Greyson? tIM thoughts are included, he has no intention of becoming a martyr.

He actually went there to do it himself with backup from other Cerberus troopers, but he ended up having to give up once he realized that they couldn't beat the Turians in the way.  Even when Kai Leng saved TIM, he scolded Leng for choosing to save him instead of going after Grayson which means Leng should know what to do if a similar situation happens again.

#69
sponge56

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GodWood wrote...


Anyways this discussion is quite dull. Accept you're racist and move on.

How about explaining what the **** your 'no great people were racist, they were extraordinary' nonsense meant?


Polaris and I have given you many reasons why it is not racist or how racism in that factor would be a legitimate responce, if you choose to ignore us and attempt to antagonise me then so be it.

And I didnt say that whatsoever.  I was responding to Volus claim that ALL great people in history have been racists, bigots, cowards etc.  What I was trying to point out (perhaps, rather badly by the looks of it) was that great people have both been ****s and saints depending on who they were.  Saying that they were all morally dispicabale is a false statemeant

#70
GodWood

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IanPolaris wrote...
That term (racist) implies that you hate all other species/races than your own, and that doesn't follow.

Ok, but that's not what it means.

#71
GodWood

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sponge56 wrote...
And I didnt say that whatsoever.  I was responding to Volus claim that ALL great people in history have been racists, bigots, cowards etc.  What I was trying to point out (perhaps, rather badly by the looks of it) was that great people have both been ****s and saints depending on who they were.  Saying that they were all morally dispicabale is a false statemeant

See, now it makes sense.

#72
armass

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sponge56 wrote...

There is no real plausibile explanation as to how some people on these forums can constantly defend Cerberus.

1)  Cerberus is an inherently RACIST/SPECIEST organisation.  They aim to make humanity the dominant power in the galaxy, subjugating the other races.  I don't understand how so many people on these forums can defend such as organisation. 



Why not? That's just mild, since these are fictious characters and races. Still raises my eybrow tough...

If you want an extreme sample from real life:

Some people still think Hitler was right...

*Spoilers*

tough after seeing in the draft what theyre up to in ME3 youd really have to be insane to support them after seeing it...

Modifié par armass, 12 novembre 2011 - 03:28 .


#73
xCirdanx

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GodWood wrote...

Anyways this discussion is quite dull. Accept you're racist and move on.



Come on guys!

This is silly people. Despite the thing that "racism" as we know it today is not only a rather new term and get´s used to often and way out of context, this whole thread makes no sense at all. This is enforcing your moral/politcal/religous belives on a damn computer game, no, on a fictional being IN a computer game..., think about that. And when you have done that. Then look at Cerberus and don´t tell me you don´t see anything, not even the last thing, reflected in you.

They have pretty much done a standart thing, what scares humans most? Their own dark side, let´s give that a "body". That always works, so yes Cerberus will be defeated, it wouldn´t be a happy ending otherwise. Realisticly thinking no it wouldn´t work, but we are talking about a game where a super-race of machines comes to destroy us, so we might be allowed to forget all that "racism/capitalism/sexual..and so on" crap for a moment.

#74
BlueMagitek

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They're about as defendable as the Spectre or the STG program. The only difference is that they don't currently have government backing. And even then, the other groups have done worse with equal moral value for their goals.

Actually, there was, what sounds like, a similar group for Salarians. The League of One, which was tossed under a bus once the Council was founded. Poor guys.

#75
Izhalezan

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

But the Council already is a dictatorship, just not with one ruling over the other twelve, but three over the other ten.

The difference is negligible.