1381 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Asking nicely?

Because that's how they got the Heretics to follow them.

[111987]

RamirezWolfen wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Random Nobody wrote...
Therefore yes, the vast majority (if not all) of its projects have been colossal failures.

Which ones?

Just off the top of my head:

In ME1: The use of rachni and thorian creepers as "disposable shock troops", the secret space station that the rachni took over, Corporal Tombs, and the murder of the admiral.

In ME2: Jack, Projects Firewalker and Overlord, the Suicide Mission (if Shepard doesn't side with them).
 
In ME: Ascension: The loss of Gillian Greyson who stays on the quarian fleet. The loss of Gillian's father who defects, the loss of Pall and his mercs who decide to double cross Cerberus.

In ME: Retribution: The whole story is about about a series of Cerberus screw-ups.

In fact the only project that Cerberus didn't screw up was the Lazarus Project which was about bringing Shepard back from the dead and rebuilding the Normandy and if Shepard doesn't side with them than that too could be considered a failure.

Jack wasn't a failure. And neither was the Suicide Mission.

Jack broke free and killed all of the Cerberus scientists, and then went on a murderous rampage across the galaxy for several years. They succeeded in making her powerful, but unless their only goal to make a powerful biotic and then just unleash her, you can't say the project was a complete success.

[Chewin]

111987 wrote...
Jack broke free and killed all of the Cerberus scientists, and then went on a murderous rampage across the galaxy for several years. They succeeded in making her powerful, but unless their only goal to make a powerful biotic and then just unleash her, you can't say the project was a complete success.

She turned out to be very helpful for me during the SM.

Thx, Cerberus.

Modifié par Chewin3, 26 novembre 2011 - 05:32 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That's not strictly true, 111987. The goal was to figure out HOW to make powerful biotics: Jack was the demonstration model. The technologies involved can still be transferred to other biotics, boosting their performance.

(Which, in effect, does happen: the biotic upgrade you can get from Pragia, demonstrating that even decades-old research is still cutting-edge in some effects.)

Producing Jack, not controlling Jack, is the fulfillment of the Teltin goals. They needed to find out how to make strong biotics. They proved they could do that. The knowledge can be used elsewhere regardless of Jack.

A non-biological comparison would be if, oh, someone stole a prototype vehicle. Using the prototype in bad ways wasn't the goal, but by creating it in the first place was the goal. Regardless of what occurs to the prototype, the technology can now be reproduced elsewhere.



Edit: In case no one could figure out:

This is not a defense for what was done to Jack and the other children at Pragia.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 novembre 2011 - 05:42 .

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's not strictly true, 111987. The goal was to figure out HOW to make powerful biotics: Jack was the demonstration model. The technologies involved can still be transferred to other biotics, boosting their performance.

(Which, in effect, does happen: the biotic upgrade you can get from Pragia, demonstrating that even decades-old research is still cutting-edge in some effects.)


Producing Jack, not controlling Jack, is the fulfillment of the Teltin goals. They needed to find out how to make strong biotics. They proved they could do that. The knowledge can be used elsewhere regardless of Jack.

A non-biological comparison would be if, oh, someone stole a prototype vehicle. Using the prototype in bad ways wasn't the goal, but by creating it in the first place was the goal. Regardless of what occurs to the prototype, the technology can now be reproduced elsewhere.

Good point/s. I guess you could say they succeeded. Unless during Jack's escape she destroyed the majority of the data, or the drugs. But I'm guessing they salvaged enough to say the project succeeded, based off what they accomplished with Gillian.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Good point/s. I guess you could say they succeeded. Unless during Jack's escape she destroyed the majority of the data, or the drugs. But I'm guessing they salvaged enough to say the project succeeded, based off what they accomplished with Gillian.

More to the point, even Shepard can find valuable tech after it was sweeped once by Cerberus. Nothing really suggested Jack or the kids even tried to destroy the computer systems either: Jack's focus was escaping.

Given that Cerberus infiltraited the Ascension Project, there's a good opportunity that Cerberus let their more harmless advancements be introduced to the Alliance through the Project, while keeping the core-boosters for subjects like Gillian.

(Not that the Gillian project ever made much sense as it was, but hey.)

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Good point/s. I guess you could say they succeeded. Unless during Jack's escape she destroyed the majority of the data, or the drugs. But I'm guessing they salvaged enough to say the project succeeded, based off what they accomplished with Gillian.

More to the point, even Shepard can find valuable tech after it was sweeped once by Cerberus. Nothing really suggested Jack or the kids even tried to destroy the computer systems either: Jack's focus was escaping.

Given that Cerberus infiltraited the Ascension Project, there's a good opportunity that Cerberus let their more harmless advancements be introduced to the Alliance through the Project, while keeping the core-boosters for subjects like Gillian.

(Not that the Gillian project ever made much sense as it was, but hey.)

I think that was more for gameplay reasons, but agreed.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

More to the point, even Shepard can find valuable tech after it was sweeped once by Cerberus.

I think that was more for gameplay reasons, but agreed.

Bah, no metagaming!

[CerberusWarrior]

I support them more than the clowns at the alliance

[Heimdall]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's not strictly true, 111987. The goal was to figure out HOW to make powerful biotics: Jack was the demonstration model. The technologies involved can still be transferred to other biotics, boosting their performance.

(Which, in effect, does happen: the biotic upgrade you can get from Pragia, demonstrating that even decades-old research is still cutting-edge in some effects.)

Producing Jack, not controlling Jack, is the fulfillment of the Teltin goals. They needed to find out how to make strong biotics. They proved they could do that. The knowledge can be used elsewhere regardless of Jack.

A non-biological comparison would be if, oh, someone stole a prototype vehicle. Using the prototype in bad ways wasn't the goal, but by creating it in the first place was the goal. Regardless of what occurs to the prototype, the technology can now be reproduced elsewhere.



Edit: In case no one could figure out:

This is not a defense for what was done to Jack and the other children at Pragia.

But the project wasn't finished.  Otherwise they would not have had to piggy back onto the Ascension Project.

[Someone With Mass]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

I support them more than the clowns at the alliance

You mean the clowns that are actually defending Earth while TIM figures out a new way to get wasted?

I'd rather join the circus in that case, seeing how circuses are fun and getting drunk in the dark by yourself isn't.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...

CerberusWarrior wrote...

I support them more than the clowns at the alliance

You mean the clowns that are actually defending Earth while TIM figures out a new way to get wasted?

Yes, the clowns who discredited everything Shepard said as soon as he wasn't around to defend himself and preferred to give ships to the Citadel fleet rather than prepare for the Reapers.

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...
Yes, the clowns who discredited everything Shepard said as soon as he wasn't around to defend himself and preferred to give ships to the Citadel fleet rather than prepare for the Reapers.

Oh, but they did prepare for the Reapers. Thousands of Alliance ships were in orbit around Earth when the Reapers attacked.

I have yet to see Cerberus do anything during (I don't care if they brought Shepard back to life, because that hardly weighs up to everything else they can do/could've done) the Reaper invasion to slow them down or stop them.

Without potentially killing half the galaxy, since that's their expertise. To kill a lot of people for no good reason.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Aesir wrote...

But the project wasn't finished.  Otherwise they would not have had to piggy back onto the Ascension Project.

'Had' or 'preferred to'?

It's hard to define 'finished', given that there are effectively infinite experiments and trials that could be pursued. When is a project like that 'finished'? You can always keep aiming for a higher target: there is no finish line.

Pragia did make biotic gains. But at the end of the day, with the disaster of Jack, Cerberus chose to continue the research elsewhere, co-opting the Alliance efforts rather than make another Pragia.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Oh, but they did prepare for the Reapers. Thousands of Alliance ships were in orbit around Earth when the Reapers attacked.

Too little, too late. Sol system was already under siege at the time.
The whole Galaxy should have started preparing years ago. Form truces, cure the Genophage, evacuate colonies, build Dreadnoughts, mine the place the Reapers were most likely to come from. etc.
So far, I've only seen Cerberus do anything.

I have yet to see Cerberus do anything during (I don't care if they brought Shepard back to life, because that hardly weighs up to everything else they can do) the Reaper invasion to slow them down or stop them.

It was revealed in "Evolution" that TIM already knew that a threat was coming. So, it could be argued that everything Cerberus has done was to stop the Reapers.
But, if you want more specific projects, there's the attempt to control Husks, Creepers and Rachni in ME1 which could have been used a "expendable shock troopers"; Project Overlord which would have not only prevented the Geth from siding with the Reapers, it would also bring them to our side; bringing Shepard back to life does count since it saved our colonies, destroyed one of the weapons of the Reapers and prevented the creation of another Reaper; finding an actual derelict Reaper and study it, acquiring technology the Reapers never intended for us to have; studying the effects of Reapers technology in "Retribution"; whatever it is they are doing in "Invasion".

Without potentially killing half the galaxy, since that's their expertise. To kill a lot of people for no good reason.

Cerberus' projects are very risky endeavours that can get many people killed. This is an aspect of the organization I do not agree with, with time and patience, the same results could be obtained without having to set up little horror shows. However, that many people died does not invalidate the results of the project.
Many people died in the Lazarus Cell because of Wilson. However, the project was still a sucess.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

Ah, yes, because the Alliance has such a great control over what other races are doing.

Controlling the rachni didn't work.

Overlord was incomprehensibly stupid for reasons I have explained many times before (in this thread too), so come up with something better.

Losing that derelict Reaper in a brown dwarf wasn't exactly the best course of action either. A better science team (one that doesn't walk into a Reaper without checking for potential indoctrination exposures first) would've at least tried to move the Reaper first. And perhaps send something like mechs to do the explorations in the Reaper for them so the scientists that could be used in other areas to improve the research can keep on living.

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Ah, yes, because the Alliance has such a great control over what other races are doing.

It's called "diplomacy". It certainly didn't help that the Alliance's stance was "There are no Reapers."

Controlling the rachni didn't work.

True. Though, was it because they couldn't control them or did not want to once they realized they were sentient?

Overlord was incomprehensibly stupid for reasons I have explained many times before (in this thread too), so come up with something better.

I must have missed it. Would you mind pointing me in their direction, please?

Losing that derelict Reaper in a brown dwarf wasn't exactly the best course of action either.

We agree on that. That project could have been handled better. Still, it does not invalidate the results. Cerberus acquired the Reaper IFF and has been able to recreate the technology.

[Someone With Mass]

There's nothing that stops the Reapers from taking control over the geth completely and Overlord clearly shows that it doesn't know sh*t about how autism actually works (which I also find very offensive, since I have an autistic brother) and playing on the geth's religion seems so stupid. It's like trying to take control over the Reapers via their vanity.

[Heimdall]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

But the project wasn't finished.  Otherwise they would not have had to piggy back onto the Ascension Project.

'Had' or 'preferred to'?

It's hard to define 'finished', given that there are effectively infinite experiments and trials that could be pursued. When is a project like that 'finished'? You can always keep aiming for a higher target: there is no finish line.

Pragia did make biotic gains. But at the end of the day, with the disaster of Jack, Cerberus chose to continue the research elsewhere, co-opting the Alliance efforts rather than make another Pragia.

Which ended in another disaster

[MisterJB]

Someone With Mass wrote...

There's nothing that stops the Reapers from taking control over the geth completely

The Geth can't be hacked and nothing we've seen indicates that Indocrination works on non-organic minds.
 

and Overlord clearly shows that it doesn't know sh*t about how autism actually works (which I also find very offensive, since I have an autistic brother)

If so, the blame lies mostly with Bioware's presentation. Gavin Archer would know how autism works.
 

and playing on the geth's religion seems so stupid. It's like trying to take control over the Reapers via their vanity.

Why? It's been done before with Sovereign. Why shouldn't Cerberus attempt the same? It worked.

[Someone With Mass]

MisterJB wrote...

The Geth can't be hacked and nothing we've seen indicates that Indocrination works on non-organic minds.

Given the right tools, the Reapers can hack the geth.

Besides, that was the whole reason with Legion's loyalty mission. To stop the Reapers from turning them all.

I'd argue that Legion's loyalty mission got more done against the heretics than Overlord, but that's a topic for another day.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:21 .

[Andorfiend]

GodWood wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
When the entire staff is killed and you're unable to recreate the experiment, it usually is a failure.

Did they achieve the goal?

Yes.

Then it's a success.


Simple as that.
Details like 'staff died' or 'cannot recreate' are irrelevent unless of course they were laid out as guidelines for achieving the goal (which they are not)

Incorrect. An experiment you cannot replicate is scientifically invalid. You should have learned that in Elementary school. If it only happens once it's not science, it's a miracle.

If your short term goal is "develop cheap, expendable shock troops for our use" then the Creeper, husk, and Rachni experiments were dismal failures because cheap, expendable shock troops that spend all their time trying to kill you are not useful. Worse, the experiments led to the total destruction of entire human colonies, thereby setting the cause of human expansion back by decades.

Consider for a moment, just how many scientists have been killed by Cerberus directly or indirectly? (Directly like the team playing with Creepers, which got eaten, or indirectly like the team which unleased thresher maws on Akuze and were all assasinated by their escaped test subject.)  How far back has the loss of all those minds and training set the human race?

TIM is such an incredible ****hole the he is functionally a bigger threat to humanity than the Reapers just because of the way he operates. While I hate to Godwin myself, consider that a large part of the reason we got the nuclear bomb and the ****s didn't was that Hitler was such a ****** that scientists like Oppenheimer and Einstein fled Germany for the states.

[Harmless Citizen]

SWM, how was autism misrepresented? Besides the inaccurate and somewhat idiotic autism = childlike mathematical savant.

Not saying it wasn't, just curious.

[Someone With Mass]

Random Nobody wrote...

SWM, how was autism misrepresented? Besides the inaccurate and somewhat idiotic autism = childlike mathematical savant.

Not saying it wasn't, just curious.

That it also gave him the ability to speak a language that I don't think human vocal cords can mimic.

That's not how autism works.

While it has been proven that it or similar conditions might give some people unique abilities, like being able to tell which day it was three hundred years ago or in this case be good at math equations, those abilities are usually restricted to certain areas.

Also: Learning that language through math? Yeah, feed someone else the bull****, because I don't want it. 

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 novembre 2011 - 03:29 .