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[Quole]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Quole wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

You asked if there were alien races that were a threat to humanity, and I answered. I neither justified nor vilified Cerberus in my comment.

Okay... that dosnt prove anything though. My point is that the only racce really wants to fight humanity right now are the batarians and not only are they not that much of a threat but cerberus would not help in that at all.

I dunno, we could let their geeks dissect some batarian corpses, figure out what makes them tick, and develop more efficient methods of making them stop ticking, if it comes to open war. Note that I said corpses, not living batarians.

I dont think you need cerberus to do that.

[Someone With Mass]

Sgt Stryker wrote...
On turians: I consider myself a Russian-American, and I have relatives who still live in Russia. That doesn't mean the CIA should ignore what Russia's military capabilities are, or what kind of political developments are going on over there.

On batarians: I was talking about the pre-ME3 political landscape. I can't comment on post-ME3, because there's no telling what will come out of the fires of the Reaper War.

Salarians have the right approach. They plan ahead, and so should we.

Of course. I'm not against keeping check on the neighbor.

I am against beating the neighbor up to get his property for no good reason, though.

[Quole]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Quole wrote...

Now if humanity NEEDED to do that then maybe it would be okay. However, it really isnt necessary.

What makes you think it isn't necessary? Humanity got strong by taking action, sometimes ruthlessly. It will have to maintain its power the same way. As soon as we stop we start becoming complacent and lazy.

Humanity's strength and ability to dominate the galactic playing field will depend upon its ability to be proactive. The opposite of the alien Council.

You can have a military and still be strong without comitting acts of terrorism.  Do we really need to kill thousands of people to kidnap a biotic? Do we need to experiment on people? Do we need to be racist? Why are these all needed to be strong? LIKE I SAID, THESE THINGS JUST MAKE PEOPLE HATE YOU.

Modifié par Quole, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:21 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...
On turians: I consider myself a Russian-American, and I have relatives who still live in Russia. That doesn't mean the CIA should ignore what Russia's military capabilities are, or what kind of political developments are going on over there.

On batarians: I was talking about the pre-ME3 political landscape. I can't comment on post-ME3, because there's no telling what will come out of the fires of the Reaper War.

Salarians have the right approach. They plan ahead, and so should we.

Of course. I'm not against keeping check on the neighbor.

I am against beating the neighbor up to get his property for no good reason, though.

Eh, are we still talking Mass Effect here?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[Someone With Mass]

Quole wrote...
You can have a military and still be strong without comitting acts of terrorism.  Do we really need to kill thousands of people to kidnap a biotic? Do we need to experiment on people? Do we need to be racist? Why are these all needed to be strong? LIKE I SAID, THESE THINGS JUST MAKE PEOPLE HATE YOU.

Because some people are trying to eat the cake and keep it at the same time.

We would've done just fine with a group that isn't as extreme stupid as Cerberus. One that doesn't provoke fights just for giggles.

[Quole]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Quole wrote...

You can have a military and still be strong without comitting acts of terrorism.

I never said we needed to commit acts of terrorism.

Pro-tip: Cerberus does not commit terrorism.

Stop using that term so liberally. You demean it when you do that.

Yes, technically its not terrorism, but its close enough. Asassinating people, blowing up ships with thousands of people, kidnapping children for deathcamps all for..... supposed protection? Which we apparently dont have already? Other than killing the collectors... what good is Cerberus? Oh wait, it makes people mistrust humans. Yeah, that really helps us in the end.

Modifié par Quole, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:26 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Oh really? So then you agree with me that the geth policy of "Don't come anywhere near me and I won't talk to you" is unacceptable? We can't keep tabs on them if they insist on such thorough isolationism.

Hello, Mr. Strawman. Nice to see you too.

Yeah, because keeping an eye on the geth and the turians are the same damn thing.

The Council races don't want to be left alone. The geth obviously do. If you're attacked by them while poking the beehive (quite literally in some cases) you have only yourself to blame when you get stung.

Learn to know what's worth the risks before you take them.

[Sgt Stryker]

Quole wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I dunno, we could let their geeks dissect some batarian corpses, figure out what makes them tick, and develop more efficient methods of making them stop ticking, if it comes to open war. Note that I said corpses, not living batarians.

I dont think you need cerberus to do that.

Probably not, but I hate letting already-existing resources go to waste. At the least, it'll distract them from hooking up autistic guys to computer networks, or running Auschwitz for Kids.

[Someone With Mass]

Quole wrote...
Yes, technically its not terrorism, but its close enough. Asassinating people, blowing up ships with thousands of people, kidnapping children for deathcamps all for..... supposed protection? Which we apparently dont have already? Other than killing the collectors... what good is Cerberus? Oh wait, it makes people mistrust humans. Yeah, that really helps us in the end.

But you see, anyone can get away with the most atrocious of actions as long as they claim that they did it for the good of humanity.

That's Cerberus' whole shtick. They don't have to benefit anyone but themselves as long as they're claiming to do the opposite. Because the oh, so trustworthy TIM, who has never lied to us at all, said so.

[rikusoraleon]

Quole wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Quole wrote...

You can have a military and still be strong without comitting acts of terrorism.

I never said we needed to commit acts of terrorism.

Pro-tip: Cerberus does not commit terrorism.

Stop using that term so liberally. You demean it when you do that.

Yes, technically its not terrorism, but its close enough. Asassinating people, blowing up ships with thousands of people, kidnapping children for deathcamps all for..... supposed protection? Which we apparently dont have already? Other than killing the collectors... what good is Cerberus? Oh wait, it makes people mistrust humans. Yeah, that really helps us in the end.

Assassination is terrorism.  See Lord Louis Mountbatten.
Blowing up ships with thousands of people is terrorism i.e. 9/11
Kidnapping children for deathcamps=Radical Muslims kidnapping children to use in suicide attacks.

Cerberus has always been a TERRORIST organization.

[Quole]

Terrorism is done for the purpose of instilling terror, is it not? I dont think that was one of cerberus` goals. It COULD have been.

Modifié par Quole, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:39 .

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So Spectres are terrorists which makes the Council a terrorist state? The Alliance is a terrorist state as well because it also assassinates people.

Spectres are more like vigilantes...endorsed by the government. Yeah there isn't a perfect analogy here.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So Spectres are terrorists which makes the Council a terrorist state? The Alliance is a terrorist state as well because it also assassinates people.

Yes.  And no. 

In that order.

111987 wrote...

Spectres are more like vigilantes...endorsed by the government. Yeah there isn't a perfect analogy here.

What about "mafia enforcers"?

Modifié par General User, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[rikusoraleon]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

So Spectres are terrorists which makes the Council a terrorist state? The Alliance is a terrorist state as well because it also assassinates people.

Spectres are more like vigilantes...endorsed by the government. Yeah there isn't a perfect analogy here.

Spectres that do what they're supposed to do are vigilantes.  Spectres like Saren are terrorists.

[Sgt Stryker]

rikusoraleon wrote...

Quole wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Quole wrote...

You can have a military and still be strong without comitting acts of terrorism.

I never said we needed to commit acts of terrorism.

Pro-tip: Cerberus does not commit terrorism.

Stop using that term so liberally. You demean it when you do that.

Yes, technically its not terrorism, but its close enough. Asassinating people, blowing up ships with thousands of people, kidnapping children for deathcamps all for..... supposed protection? Which we apparently dont have already? Other than killing the collectors... what good is Cerberus? Oh wait, it makes people mistrust humans. Yeah, that really helps us in the end.

Assassination is terrorism.  See Lord Louis Mountbatten.
Blowing up ships with thousands of people is terrorism i.e. 9/11
Kidnapping children for deathcamps=Radical Muslims kidnapping children to use in suicide attacks.

Cerberus has always been a TERRORIST organization.

If we're going to bring up real-life examples, are British SAS teams terrorists, because they went around assassinating escaping German officers after WWII?

You may want to clarify your second example. Blowing up a ship full of civilians is terrorism. Blowing up a military vessel full of military personnel is called war. If a few civilians happen to be on board at the time, well, that's called collateral damage.

[Someone With Mass]

Has Cerberus any orders to alter the political stance of a nation's government, by the government?

That's what makes them different from the Alliance. They're not reacting by the will of the majority of humanity and it can have dire consequences for everyone. They're not controlled. They don't know when to back down either.

It's as if a rogue STG group would start deploying different kinds of viruses against other races because they believed it was for the good of the salarians, while the salarian government never really had a huge problem with those races they can't overcome by themselves.

[General User]

Saphra Deden wrote...

General User wrote...

Yes.  And no. 

In that order.

Are you saying the Alliance doesn't assassinate people?

No. Just that conducting and/or authorizing assassinations does not necessarily make anyone a terrorist.

Modifié par General User, 30 novembre 2011 - 01:46 .

[111987]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Spectres are more like vigilantes...endorsed by the government. Yeah there isn't a perfect analogy here.

Uhh... and that changes things how? Spectres and the Council as a whole, and the Alliance, do things pretty much the same way Cerberus do for the most part.

So why is Cerberus evil but not them?

I wasn't making an argument either for or against you. I was just saying that I thought Spectres were more vigilante-like than terrorist-like.