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[111987]

General User wrote...

There are many independent human colonies. 

All of whom have their own offical governments.

I get the sense you are deliberately being difficult.

Those governments are still held under the sway of the Alliance, the official government of the species.

Besides none of those colonies governments created Cerberus anyways, so i am baffled as to why you raised this point.

Seriously this is getting ridiculous...I have shown that Cerberus is not a legitimate authority. You can argue 'so what, it does good work' and all that jazz, but to argue that Cerberus has the legitimacy of the Spectres of STG is ludicrious.

If anything, the Alliance Corsairs are the human equivalent of the Spectres and STG's, not Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arkitekt wrote...

Yeah, but it's not like they pressed much. Had they known his identity, things might have gone differently with the troops calling each other saying "We got him here! Help us we got him he's right here!!" or smth of the sort.

Color me a bit skeptical, since not only did they have no reason to believe he'd be on the station in the first place (expecting is one of the few times that that sort of face-recognition really applies in battlefields), but there would be all sorts of reasons the troopers on the ground wouldn't recognize him (hard telling one member of a species apart from another, battlefield chaos), and why it wouldn't matter (Kai Leng's intervention, security protocols, the escape-protocols that couldn't be blocked anyway).

And that's if they had a face to the identity of Illusive Man. Knowing that the Illusive Man is Jack Harper doesn't really add onto that.

[111987]

I'm firmly in the camp of "Cerberus being a rogue black-ops group for the Alliance was retconned" camp. If they were working with the Alliance, a lot of the stuff in the Shadow Broker dossier wouldn't make sense. Like the fact that they would murder Alliance officials, including the parliamentarian just so that they could manipulate the elections themselves. They also wouldn't need to do stuff like infiltrate the human media or steal cargo from Alliance ships, like the SSV Geneva.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Seriously this is getting ridiculous...I have shown that Cerberus is not a legitimate authority. You can argue 'so what, it does good work' and all that jazz, but to argue that Cerberus has the legitimacy of the Spectres of STG is ludicrious.

Actually, it comes to defining the root of legetimacy.

Spectres derive their authority from the Council, but the Council derives it's authority from the fact that the Asari were the first species to reach the Citadel. And that they're the toughest faction in the galaxy. Both of those are poor justifications for the legalization of all crimes not too politically inconvenient to cover up.

Short of democratic consent to a power, 'does good work' is actually a pretty common and accepted source of legetimization.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

I'm firmly in the camp of "Cerberus being a rogue black-ops group for the Alliance was retconned" camp. If they were working with the Alliance, a lot of the stuff in the Shadow Broker dossier wouldn't make sense. Like the fact that they would murder Alliance officials, including the parliamentarian just so that they could manipulate the elections themselves.

Besides the idea of the 'right' kind of officials (officials who are compromised by, say, extreme Council-philia can't be blocked from running, but are too dangerous to secrets/Alliance interests to be tolerated), the Cerberus assassinations in the LotSB were mostly against Earth nations to help shape cultural direction to a desired direction for the Alliance to continue. The Pope Assassination, for example. You can't 'order' a Pope to reverse position on the Salarian genophage, and influential elected officials are the same.

They also wouldn't need to do stuff like infiltrate the human media or steal cargo from Alliance ships, like the SSV Geneva.

Why not? There are plenty of things governments find more convenient to do in secret than openly. Even things that CAN'T be accomplished when the hand of the government is detected.

Take anti-matter. It's hard to produce, and closely watched for obvious reasons. If the Alliance officially moved it around, then Council observors would ask just what the Alliance was using it for. Much harder to hide the illegal uses of it. 'Stealing' from yourself gives nearly unlimited cover to use it as you see fit.

Human media is actually one of the historically demonstrated examples where the lack of perceived government influence is far more effective. When the government line is given by edict, you get Pravda or The Global Times. When the government influence is far less persuasive, you get the influence of the BBC.

[General User]

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

There are many independent human colonies. 

All of whom have their own offical governments.

I get the sense you are deliberately being difficult.

Those governments are still held under the sway of the Alliance, the official government of the species.

Besides none of those colonies governments created Cerberus anyways, so i am baffled as to why you raised this point.

Seriously this is getting ridiculous...I have shown that Cerberus is not a legitimate authority. You can argue 'so what, it does good work' and all that jazz, but to argue that Cerberus has the legitimacy of the Spectres of STG is ludicrious.

If anything, the Alliance Corsairs are the human equivalent of the Spectres and STG's, not Cerberus.

I wasn't arguing that at all.  My point was rather that if the imprimatur of a government is all Cerberus needs to be legitimatized, then there are plenty to choose from with whom accommodation could be made.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Seriously this is getting ridiculous...I have shown that Cerberus is not a legitimate authority. You can argue 'so what, it does good work' and all that jazz, but to argue that Cerberus has the legitimacy of the Spectres of STG is ludicrious.

Actually, it comes to defining the root of legetimacy.

Spectres derive their authority from the Council, but the Council derives it's authority from the fact that the Asari were the first species to reach the Citadel. And that they're the toughest faction in the galaxy. Both of those are poor justifications for the legalization of all crimes not too politically inconvenient to cover up.

Short of democratic consent to a power, 'does good work' is actually a pretty common and accepted source of legetimization.

The Council has legitimacy because the governments of all four species recognize it as a true power. Yes, that happened because the Asari and Salarians were the first to arrive on the scene, but it is a different scenario because a new government needed to be created to effectively govern the galaxy and all the new races being discovered.

Because the Council is recognized by all governments as the governing body of the galaxy, it has authority, such as being able to create Spectres. Spectres are overseen by the Council and are official agents.

Cerberus is not an official agency of the Alliance, nor does it have the backing of several species governments; it does not have the backing of any government. And yet it breaks laws all the time as dictated by one man, TIM, whom is unchecked by virtually anyone.

[General User]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Short of democratic consent to a power, 'does good work' is actually a pretty common and accepted source of legetimization.

"No one can and/or has stopped us" is, I think, less accepted (or at least in need of more explanation) but even more common.

[111987]

General User wrote...

111987 wrote...

General User wrote...

There are many independent human colonies. 

All of whom have their own offical governments.

I get the sense you are deliberately being difficult.

Those governments are still held under the sway of the Alliance, the official government of the species.

Besides none of those colonies governments created Cerberus anyways, so i am baffled as to why you raised this point.

Seriously this is getting ridiculous...I have shown that Cerberus is not a legitimate authority. You can argue 'so what, it does good work' and all that jazz, but to argue that Cerberus has the legitimacy of the Spectres of STG is ludicrious.

If anything, the Alliance Corsairs are the human equivalent of the Spectres and STG's, not Cerberus.

I wasn't arguing that at all.  My point was rather that if the imprimatur of a government is all Cerberus needs to be legitimatized, then there are plenty to choose from with whom accommodation could be made.

Cerberus was not formed by a government. And it subsequently has not been endorsed by one. It is therefore not, nor will be, legitimate. They circumvent the law because they choose to.

If everyone adopted such a policy, the galaxy would be in chaos.

[Andorfiend]

General User wrote...

I wasn't arguing that at all.  My point was rather that if the imprimatur of a government is all Cerberus needs to be legitimatized, then there are plenty to choose from with whom accommodation could be made.

*shrug* Cerberus has noting to gain and quite a bit to lose from an open association. Even if they owened some convenient colony to act as their front, they are still murdering, torturing, assasinating terrorists. Their nation would be branded an outlaw state, and given all the respect we accord Burma (excuse me, Myanmar) or North Korea. Except given their track record I doubt Cerberus could do as good a job at running a state as either of those two.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

I'm firmly in the camp of "Cerberus being a rogue black-ops group for the Alliance was retconned" camp. If they were working with the Alliance, a lot of the stuff in the Shadow Broker dossier wouldn't make sense. Like the fact that they would murder Alliance officials, including the parliamentarian just so that they could manipulate the elections themselves.

Besides the idea of the 'right' kind of officials (officials who are compromised by, say, extreme Council-philia can't be blocked from running, but are too dangerous to secrets/Alliance interests to be tolerated), the Cerberus assassinations in the LotSB were mostly against Earth nations to help shape cultural direction to a desired direction for the Alliance to continue. The Pope Assassination, for example. You can't 'order' a Pope to reverse position on the Salarian genophage, and influential elected officials are the same.

They also wouldn't need to do stuff like infiltrate the human media or steal cargo from Alliance ships, like the SSV Geneva.

Why not? There are plenty of things governments find more convenient to do in secret than openly. Even things that CAN'T be accomplished when the hand of the government is detected.

Take anti-matter. It's hard to produce, and closely watched for obvious reasons. If the Alliance officially moved it around, then Council observors would ask just what the Alliance was using it for. Much harder to hide the illegal uses of it. 'Stealing' from yourself gives nearly unlimited cover to use it as you see fit.

Human media is actually one of the historically demonstrated examples where the lack of perceived government influence is far more effective. When the government line is given by edict, you get Pravda or The Global Times. When the government influence is far less persuasive, you get the influence of the BBC.

Going off of the SSV Geneva incident; if it really was just a feigned theft, why would they capture one of the Cerberus operatives and therefore expose Cerberus to the galaxy? Shouldn't they be kept secret as long as possible?

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

The Council has legitimacy because the governments of all four species recognize it as a true power. Yes, that happened because the Asari and Salarians were the first to arrive on the scene, but it is a different scenario because a new government needed to be created to effectively govern the galaxy and all the new races being discovered.

This was the 'might' justification I mentioned earlier.

Because the Council is recognized by all governments as the governing body of the galaxy, it has authority, such as being able to create Spectres. Spectres are overseen by the Council and are official agents.

Well, besides the matter of the Terminus, we also go back to how those governments are legetimized. Most Americans, for example, wouldn't recognize the Turian caste system or Salarian spy-games as legetimate derivations of authority.

Cerberus is not an official agency of the Alliance, nor does it have the backing of several species governments; it does not have the backing of any government. And yet it breaks laws all the time as dictated by one man, TIM, whom is unchecked by virtually anyone.

So really, all it needs to do to match the Council's derivation is be strong and recognized. It can call itself it's own government, which all the others needed.

[General User]

111987 wrote...
Cerberus was not formed by a government. And it subsequently has not been endorsed by one. It is therefore not, nor will be, legitimate. They circumvent the law because they choose to.

If everyone adopted such a policy, the galaxy would be in chaos.

Circumventing someone's laws is largely the nature of espionage in general and black-ops in particular.

Andorfiend wrote...
*shrug* Cerberus has noting to gain and quite a bit to lose from an open association.

Very true.  Which is, of course, a large part of the reason they've never sought anything of the sort.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Going off of the SSV Geneva incident; if it really was just a feigned theft, why would they capture one of the Cerberus operatives and therefore expose Cerberus to the galaxy? Shouldn't they be kept secret as long as possible?

If 'they' could, they would have, but you're confusing a government conspiracy with an anthromorphization of the government.

Not everything a government does is intended by the policy makers: governments are collections of people, after all.

'They', the people in the know about Cerberus, aren't the ones who captured the Cerberus operatives. Standard Alliance forces, not in the know, did. Once the Alliance-people-not-in-the-know did so, covering up the secret becomes far more of a red-flag than the admission there is a group.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

The Council has legitimacy because the governments of all four species recognize it as a true power. Yes, that happened because the Asari and Salarians were the first to arrive on the scene, but it is a different scenario because a new government needed to be created to effectively govern the galaxy and all the new races being discovered.

This was the 'might' justification I mentioned earlier.

Because the Council is recognized by all governments as the governing body of the galaxy, it has authority, such as being able to create Spectres. Spectres are overseen by the Council and are official agents.

Well, besides the matter of the Terminus, we also go back to how those governments are legetimized. Most Americans, for example, wouldn't recognize the Turian caste system or Salarian spy-games as legetimate derivations of authority.

Cerberus is not an official agency of the Alliance, nor does it have the backing of several species governments; it does not have the backing of any government. And yet it breaks laws all the time as dictated by one man, TIM, whom is unchecked by virtually anyone.

So really, all it needs to do to match the Council's derivation is be strong and recognized. It can call itself it's own government, which all the others needed.

No, Cerberus cannot call itself its own government as it does not have the backing of about a dozen of species (like the Council does), and it does not govern a group of people. It is an organization; do not twist the argument. It is an illegal organization.

Why throw out hypotheticals? Cerberus is, as of right now, an illegal organization. Do we agree? Because that is all I am saying.

[Arkitekt]

Sgt Stryker wrote...


Are you referring to the fact that AI's cannot be copied?

No, for the UMPTEENTH time, I'm referring to the OBVIOUS fact that dealing with AIs is *strictly forbidden* by Citadel policy.

[Arkitekt]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Yeah, but it's not like they pressed much. Had they known his identity, things might have gone differently with the troops calling each other saying "We got him here! Help us we got him he's right here!!" or smth of the sort.

Color me a bit skeptical, since not only did they have no reason to believe he'd be on the station in the first place (expecting is one of the few times that that sort of face-recognition really applies in battlefields), but there would be all sorts of reasons the troopers on the ground wouldn't recognize him (hard telling one member of a species apart from another, battlefield chaos), and why it wouldn't matter (Kai Leng's intervention, security protocols, the escape-protocols that couldn't be blocked anyway).

And that's if they had a face to the identity of Illusive Man. Knowing that the Illusive Man is Jack Harper doesn't really add onto that.

You're obviously wrong. In the briefing, the troops are actually informed that TIM may be aboard one of the places where they will strike, and they consider him a very important target.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Going off of the SSV Geneva incident; if it really was just a feigned theft, why would they capture one of the Cerberus operatives and therefore expose Cerberus to the galaxy? Shouldn't they be kept secret as long as possible?

If 'they' could, they would have, but you're confusing a government conspiracy with an anthromorphization of the government.

Not everything a government does is intended by the policy makers: governments are collections of people, after all.

'They', the people in the know about Cerberus, aren't the ones who captured the Cerberus operatives. Standard Alliance forces, not in the know, did. Once the Alliance-people-not-in-the-know did so, covering up the secret becomes far more of a red-flag than the admission there is a group.

Fair points.

I think anything could be twisted to support the notion that Cerberus was a black-ops group. I personally don't buy it and still think it's a retcon, but I definitely understand where you're coming from.

[Andorfiend]

General User wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Short of democratic consent to a power, 'does good work' is actually a pretty common and accepted source of legetimization.

"No one can and/or has stopped us" is, I think, less accepted (or at least in need of more explanation) but even more common.

Historically speaking the only long term, stable legitimizations of governments come from two sources. "Divine right", usually used by Kings or Caliphs or 'The will of the people'.

Mind you, the will of the people has been used to legitimize goverments which couldn't care less what the people thought, like the Roman Emperors (legimized by acknowlegement from the Senate) or the various communist parties.

But rule by fear is rarely stable in the long term. "We do good work" boils down to consent of the people, although I can't think of a historical example of a government that claimed legitimacy by competance. It leaves you too open to competeing claims, and how do you prove they other guy wouldn't do better?  Hence the means for a peaceful transition of power built into democracies or republics.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

No, Cerberus cannot call itself its own government as it does not have the backing of about a dozen of species (like the Council does),

That's not what makes a government. The Alliance was a government before the Council recognized it. So was the Turian Heirarchy.

Recognition by foreigners isn't what establishes a government, or else there would be no governments to do the recognizing in the first place.

and it does not govern a group of people. It is an organization; do not twist the argument. It is an illegal organization.

Organizations govern themselves, which is a group of people.

Why throw out hypotheticals? Cerberus is, as of right now, an illegal organization. Do we agree? Because that is all I am saying.

I'm not throwing out hypotheticals. I'm challinging the very root of your definition of legitimacy.

If ' recognized power' is the onlything necessary to be a legitimate power, the only thing separating Cerberus from legitimacy is the recognition by others, which can still be gained in the future and thus render past-illegitimacy moot.

If the root of legitimacy is NOT 'pre-existing power', then we call into question the Council's own derivation of legitimacy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Arkitekt wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Yeah, but it's not like they pressed much. Had they known his identity, things might have gone differently with the troops calling each other saying "We got him here! Help us we got him he's right here!!" or smth of the sort.

Color me a bit skeptical, since not only did they have no reason to believe he'd be on the station in the first place (expecting is one of the few times that that sort of face-recognition really applies in battlefields), but there would be all sorts of reasons the troopers on the ground wouldn't recognize him (hard telling one member of a species apart from another, battlefield chaos), and why it wouldn't matter (Kai Leng's intervention, security protocols, the escape-protocols that couldn't be blocked anyway).

And that's if they had a face to the identity of Illusive Man. Knowing that the Illusive Man is Jack Harper doesn't really add onto that.

You're obviously wrong. In the briefing, the troops are actually informed that TIM may be aboard one of the places where they will strike, and they consider him a very important target.

I'm obvious wrong about my own skepticism, of which 'prior expectation of the Illusive Man's presence' was... one of six different reasons?

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

I think anything could be twisted to support the notion that Cerberus was a black-ops group. I personally don't buy it and still think it's a retcon, but I definitely understand where you're coming from.

Since Cerberus being black-ops was the first establishment, how would it be a ret-con?

Unless you meant that we were ret-coned away from it?

[Arkitekt]

Legitimacy is in the eyes of the lawmakers... and we may differ on the view on whose authority we should consider relevant or important.

[Dean_the_Young]

Until the lawmakers are thrown out or killed by the non-lawmakers, at least. Then legitimacy comes from something else.

[General User]

The new lawmakers?