1381 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

That's what I have been saying this entire time!

That wasn't the part I was arguing either.

And until Cerberus is retroactively pardoned or waived from a position of power, they are illegitimate. And illegal.

That's not how legitimacy works, as you yourself have constructed.

To be illegal is not the same as illegitimate. The two words are not synonyms. Legality derives from the ruling authority, but legitimacy does not (or else there could be no ruling authority).

And the situations are different.
Willing submission =/= Cerberus tactics.

Since you've accepted that conquest and extortion are valid tactics (the Krogan, the Turian Heirarchy's military policies, the Council-Terminus mutual exclusion), no, Cerberus tactics are not outside that scope.

All Cerberus needs to do is  force the other races to submit by threatening something worse if they do. That would consitute your working definition of 'willing.'

If the other species really wanted to they could form their own government.

Not in the Terminus, where cooperation and stability are effectively impossible due to the extreme anarchy.

The fact that they do support the current government suggests to me that everyone is reasonably content with the current system. Thus legitamizing it.

It implies nothing about being content. It only implies best alternative. It would apply the same whether the Council were a democracy or an oppressive enslaving dictatorship: as long as the alternatives to the ruling regime are worse (threats of destruction, for example), people will choose the ruling regime regardless of legitimacy.

And you're changing your definition of legitimization again. You need to pick one and stick with it.

Until the Alliance says "Cerberus is great and we sanction all of their activities", Cerberus is an illegal and illegitimate authority.

No, it's just illegal.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

So once Cerberus takes over the galaxy, are they then legitimate and and legal?

Nope.

111987 wrote...

And until Cerberus is retroactively pardoned or waived from a position of power, they are illegitimate. And illegal.

According to an expert in these manners, yup.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I've never been a fan of Cerberus since the beginning, and no; I don't care that they brought me back to life. Cerberus is mostly in it for themselves under the guise of trying to help humanity.
 

Proof?


@111987 -

The Council is composed of the 3 of the most pwoerfull races in the galaxy. OF COURSE the other races in the area will recgonize them. They are too scared to say no.

The council can crush an race that oppposes them in more ways than just sheer military might. Power is what grants legitimacy to a government.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 décembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[Arkitekt]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

So once Cerberus takes over the galaxy, are they then legitimate and and legal?

Nope.

111987 wrote...

And until Cerberus is retroactively pardoned or waived from a position of power, they are illegitimate. And illegal.

According to an expert in these manners, yup.

I'm still amazed at the arrogance displayed here, although it's a completely unconscious one. Who is anyone to proclaim that Cerberus is "legitimate" or not, specially if they "take over the galaxy"?

If they take over the Galaxy, then they will rule it. How they will rule it will depend from multiple factors, such as the level of power they have, the level of acceptance the submitted have, their vision of what the Galaxy should be about, etc.,etc.,etc. "Legitimacy" is a rethorical device used by either those in power to say that they are the "legitimate" source of it, or by the revolutionaries who want to depose those who they think have "no legitimacy" over them.

IOW, "legitimacy" does not exist per se, it's a perception. An opinion. If Cerberus is able to oppress the galaxy into submission with brutal power, then that's the kind of "legitimacy" that will exist. People may object and say that according to their own bullpoop philosophy "legitimacy" does not arrive by force, etc., and that "Cerberus is illegitimate", or some other idea, but until that idea is able to depose Cerberus, it's a meaningless assertion.

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I've never been a fan of Cerberus since the beginning, and no; I don't care that they brought me back to life. Cerberus is mostly in it for themselves under the guise of trying to help humanity.
 

Proof?

Besides the fact that they're hoarding all the technological discoveries/advances and information for themselves?

[Arkitekt]

Like human biotics? /sarc

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Other than reviving Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy what has Cerberus really done for humanity?
Or is that enough?

For me it's not.

Since Shepard is the one who defeats the Collectors and not Cerberus, so what have they done that makes some people think they're the good guys?  

They have killed more humans than they save, from all sources they don't share any of their technological breakthroughs with humanity. Even their own members state that been said: "they've been call terrorists for good reason" (Jacob), "that their methods can be harsh" (Kelly), and that "their experiments cross the line all the time." (Miranda)  
 

[Someone With Mass]

Let's not forget all the agents that went rogue because they thought Cerberus was crossing the line (like Paul Grayson)

[Dean_the_Young]

Arkitekt wrote...

I'm still amazed at the arrogance displayed here, although it's a completely unconscious one. Who is anyone to proclaim that Cerberus is "legitimate" or not, specially if they "take over the galaxy"?

I agree, actually. I've been trying to lead him this entire time to spell out a legitimacy theory that doesn't equate to 'might makes it alright.'

IOW, "legitimacy" does not exist per se, it's a perception. An opinion. If Cerberus is able to oppress the galaxy into submission with brutal power, then that's the kind of "legitimacy" that will exist. People may object and say that according to their own bullpoop philosophy "legitimacy" does not arrive by force, etc., and that "Cerberus is illegitimate", or some other idea, but until that idea is able to depose Cerberus, it's a meaningless assertion.

More than a perception or opinion, legitimacy is a social construct. Not quite the same thing: it's closer to culture than an individual point.

More important than the opinion is that it be applied consistently. If one's basis of legitimacy is that it is the status quo, regardless of all else, legitimacy becomes an intrensically retro-active attribute. Once a new status quo is established, that becomes the new basis of legitimacy.


Personally, I lean towards the 'democratic' derivation of legitimacy. Not an autocratic one.

[Andorfiend]

Wow this thread has gotten wierd.

Cerberus is not a government. The first requirement for being a government is an attempt to govern. Cerberus's entire platform is "I like humans, especially cutting them up." Not really a good basis for governence.

Cerberus is illegal becuase there is nowhere in the entire galaxy where the recognized government accepts their legality.

Cerberus is illegitimate because they claim to be attempting to advance humanity without the slightest interest in whether or not humanity needs or wants their help. Nor do they have the slightest interest in trying to advance humanity in a direction it wants to go. They hide because they know they could get no popular support. And most interestingly, for a 'prohuman' organization, almost all their efforts are focused on transhumanism.

And they are doubly illegal and illegitemate becuase their mean and goal are horrific, stupid, and frequently not only self destructive, but potentially capable of bringing about the total destruction of humanity and even galactic civilization.

TIM makes Syndrome from the Incredibles look like a font of civility and rational benevolance.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think you forgot your usual 'and if you don't agree with my entirely logical, measured, and correct assessment, you're sucking TIM's co**.'

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think you forgot your usual 'and if you don't agree with my entirely logical, measured, and correct assessment, you're sucking TIM's co**.'

I've seen the polar opposite of that one, so...eh.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think you forgot your usual 'and if you don't agree with my entirely logical, measured, and correct assessment, you're sucking TIM's co**.'

I've seen the polar opposite of that one, so...eh.

'If you agree with me, the Illusive Man will give you felatio?'


(Or would that be 'In Soviet BSN, TIM felatio-s you'?)

[Someone With Mass]

More like "If you're not agreeing with me, you're bouncing on Alliance dick"

[Kaiser Shepard]

Girls, I know you're all looking forward to tonight, but please keep the dick talk to a minimum.

[Andorfiend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think you forgot your usual 'and if you don't agree with my entirely logical, measured, and correct assessment, you're sucking TIM's co**.'

I figured it was assumed.

[DiebytheSword]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think you forgot your usual 'and if you don't agree with my entirely logical, measured, and correct assessment, you're sucking TIM's co**.'

I've seen the polar opposite of that one, so...eh.

'If you agree with me, the Illusive Man will give you felatio?'


(Or would that be 'In Soviet BSN, TIM felatio-s you'?)

Result orientated morality indeed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

More like "If you're not agreeing with me, you're bouncing on Alliance dick"

CerberusWarrior reminds me of ExtremeOne, it's true.

Of course, if we wanted the anti-Cerberus idiot beyond all idiocy, you'd vehemently disagree to being grouped with...

****, I forgot that person's name. Eastern European complex. Kept equating TIM to Stalin's treatment of Poland, among the H-man comparisons. Had this inability to understand the concept of expansion coupled with risk, and blasted the Alliance as treasonous for not making every colony world an absolute un-attackable fortress-world. Had the military/economic sense of a turnip.

Can't remember the name. Bad grammar to. Used to be in all the Cerberus threads.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 décembre 2011 - 03:45 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think you forgot your usual 'and if you don't agree with my entirely logical, measured, and correct assessment, you're sucking TIM's co**.'

I've seen the polar opposite of that one, so...eh.

'If you agree with me, the Illusive Man will give you felatio?'


(Or would that be 'In Soviet BSN, TIM felatio-s you'?)

Result orientated morality indeed.

I'm glad you caught the 'thrust' of the conversation.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
CerberusWarrior reminds me of ExtremeOne, it's true.

Of course, if we wanted the anti-Cerberus idiot beyond all idiocy, you'd vehemently disagree to being grouped with...

****, I forgot that person's name. Eastern European. Kept equating TIM to Stalin's treatment of Poland, among the H-man comparisons. Had this inability to understand the concept of expansion coupled with risk, and blasted the Alliance as treasonous for not making every colony world an absolute un-attackable fortress-world. Had the military/economic sense of a turnip.

Can't remember the name. Bad grammar to. Used to be in all the Cerberus threads.

Sounds familiar, but I've seen plenty of people with commie banners and such, so he's probably one of the bunch.

[Arkitekt]

Andorfiend wrote...

Wow this thread has gotten wierd.

Cerberus is not a government. The first requirement for being a government is an attempt to govern. Cerberus's entire platform is "I like humans, especially cutting them up." Not really a good basis for governence.

Captain obvious to the rescue.

Cerberus is illegal becuase there is nowhere in the entire galaxy where the recognized government accepts their legality.

**coughh cough** Omega **cough cough***

Cerberus is illegitimate because they claim to be attempting to advance humanity without the slightest interest in whether or not humanity needs or wants their help. Nor do they have the slightest interest in trying to advance humanity in a direction it wants to go. They hide because they know they could get no popular support. And most interestingly, for a 'prohuman' organization, almost all their efforts are focused on transhumanism.

Humanity knows nothing about what it "wants". Most of their constituents are clueless dumb****s. I approve of Cerberus high road method. Also, transhumanism is what Cerberus sees as the only method of advancing humanity. Unless of course one is a luddite, against all forms of technology or transformations. But those have lost their ideological war for centuries now. Begone with them.

And they are doubly illegal and illegitemate becuase their mean and goal are horrific, stupid, and frequently not only self destructive, but potentially capable of bringing about the total destruction of humanity and even galactic civilization.

Hey, just like mankind itself! At least they are trying something. They are acting upon the universe, transforming it. I have much more respect towards that than the usual "politically correct" do-nothing say-nothing all praise the status quo that you seem to tolerate.

TIM makes Syndrome from the Incredibles look like a font of civility and rational benevolance.

Ah, you were joking all the time. Didn't see that inanity coming.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Sounds familiar, but I've seen plenty of people with commie banners and such, so he's probably one of the bunch.

Nah, he was a vehement anti-communist. The modern Eastern European sort.

I remember that one of his complexes was that there could never be any good derived of immorally-discovered knowledge... and I think he might have tried to argue that EDI and the Thanix should have been destroyed. (Or was it that they didn't count?)

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
]Nah, he was a vehement anti-communist. The modern Eastern European sort.

I remember that one of his complexes was that there could never be any good derived of immorally-discovered knowledge... and I think he might have tried to argue that EDI and the Thanix should have been destroyed. (Or was it that they didn't count?)

Okay...sounds a tad extreme, so it's pretty consistent with the majority of them.

[Arkitekt]

Unlike you Oh-the-common-one