1381 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkitekt]

Andorfiend wrote...

You really and truely believe that the only alternative paths are the systematic torture and murder of children, or to be a '"politically correct" do-nothing say-nothing all praise the status quo luddite?" Are you aware that you are quite, quite mad?

I agree, you are incapable of following any reasoning whatsoever. Since when did I deny any alternative method to Cerberus?

Ok, pay attention I'll give you this small lesson of logic free of charge, just this once.

Imagine someone says that "RED" is an awful color. I say, "Ok, but better RED than YELLOW. YELLOW sucks balls".

Nowhere here I am saying that I only accept both RED and YELLOW as the only colors in the visible spectrum of light. Clearly, I could logically enjoy BLUE or GREEN much much more than both RED and YELLOW. I could enjoy any other color more than these two.

Likewise, I never stated that Cerberus' methods were the ideal ones, the ones I'd prefer over any other.

HOWEVER, given the extraordinary times, and the sight of full blown extermination, I see Cerberus as actively trying to do *something* about the goddamned thing, while I see the Alliance procastrinating, and let's not even start about the Citadel politicians. This is the contrast that I was making and it is not an unimportant one. We all dislike the Citadel, but we "recognize" its "legitimacy". However, they are doing nothing about the most important threat the citadel races could even imagine. And Cerberus is.

You still prefer to give your "legitimacy" to those who do nothing and procastrinate, over those who will try to do anything to stop the doom, even if such a result comes with the suffering and the killing of a few hundreds / thousands. Which are peanuts, btw, to what is involved here. For ****s sake.

[Andorfiend]

Arkitekt wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

Let me draw a map for you. You said that the governments get their legitimacy from their own constituents. I asked you if that makes Cerberus legitimate as well, since their constituents also consent to Cerberus existence, actions, politics, etc.

I'm just following your logic, which does not seem to reflect your opinion.

No. Cerberus is still not legitimate, becuase their actions are not limited to, or reflect merely upon themselves and their people.

This is an entirely different line of reasoning, so why the hell do you start with "no"? My sentence was 100% correct and it followed the logic at hand, which was corrected / improved just a tad later. You may disagree with the logic, and so would I (for obvious different reasons), but that's a different discussion.

Follow the goddamned conversation.

Do try to follow along will you?

Cerberuses actions reflect upon humanity as a whole.
Cerberus is not the appointed representative of humanity.
So when they assassinate an alien politician, or invade an alien flotilla they are illegitimate reprentatives of humanity.

They also quite blatently hide most of their own activities even from other members of their organization as almost any discussion with the crew of the Normandy 2 will show you, so even by a purely internal standard they have no interest in legitimacy.

I don't know why we are discussing the 'legitimacy' of a bunch of terrorists in any event.

Arkitekt wrote...

Ridiculous inane assertion. Your regurgitations are meaningless. Cry as you will, it doesn't make Cerberus "illegitimate" per se. You fail to understand the difference between your dislike of Cerberus and "legitimacy". But let's bite the cake and ask: where could their actions "easily have led to the total destruction of humanity" not only once but "SEVERAL times"?!? Now you are just making **** up.

Feral Rachni loosed upon the galaxy.
They could have destroyed humanity themselves. They could have destroyed the whole galaxy themselves with no Krogan to stop them.

The fact that a human agency let the feral Rachni loose could easily have led the council races to destroy humanity or at very least wipe out our colonies and pin us up back in the Sol system.

And lastly even if they proved incapable of wiping us out by themselves they could certainly serve as a fine distraction from the Reapers until it is too late, don't you think? Especially since we know how easily Rachni can be indoctrinated without forewarning.

So there are three plausible existential threats Cerberus generated from a single supremely stupid act.

Arkitekt wrote...

Spam the thread with ridiculous comparisons and you'll be laughed at. Cerberus being compared to Al Quaeda is an abomination of logic. Timothy? Really? And Jack the Ripper.

Come back with less asinine analogies and maybe I'll be less inclined to puke and actually reply with some content.

I agree that the comparison is inadequate. Jack the Ripper did not torture children. And Al-Queda and Timothy McVeigh put together have not killed nearly as many people as Cerberus.

Who do you suggest as closer parallels?

[capn233]

Cerberus isn't a terrorist organization.

But I agree that there is no reason to discuss their legitimacy.

[DPSSOC]

Catching up, saw this a few pages back.

Andorfiend wrote...
Cerberus is illegitimate because they claim to be attempting to advance humanity without the slightest interest in whether or not humanity needs or wants their help.

 
If they didn't believe humanity needed what they were doing they wouldn't do it.  At the very least they believe humanity will benefit from what they do whether they need it or not (if we only satisfied our needs we wouldn't have developed nearly as far as we have).

As for what humanity wants, people very rarely want what's in their best interests.  People don't want raised taxes but sometimes they're the only way to solve a particular problem.  Children don't want to eat their vegetables but we make them anyway because it's what's best for them.  Whether or not Cerberus is in fact acting in the best interests of humanity, and whether or not they have the right to do so in the first place, are certainly up for debate but whether or not people want what Cerberus is giving them is completely irrellevant to Cerberus legitimacy.

Andorfiend wrote...
Nor do they have the slightest interest in trying to advance humanity in a direction it wants to go.

 
See above.

Andorfiend wrote...
They hide because they know they could get no popular support. And most interestingly, for a 'prohuman' organization, almost all their efforts are focused on transhumanism.

A pro-human group focused on improving the human being beyond natural limitations [gasp] shocking.  You are correct it is completely beyond reason for a pro-human organization to look into means of improving life span, overall health, strength, intelligence, etc.

As for why they hide, they hide because they know what they do upsets the demonstrably violent status quo (most rebellions hide too when they start), and because people are resistant to being pushed.  If you try to force someone to do something, even if it's good for them, they'll generally resist, and may do the opposite out of spite.  So rather than step forward and declare, "We are Cerberus and this is what you must do." they stick to the shadows and work to slowly nudge humanity in the direction they want.  Back when they were still kind of a secret anyway; every Tom, Dick, and Harry seems to know who Cerberus is now.

Andorfiend wrote...
And they are doubly illegal and illegitemate becuase their mean and goal are horrific, stupid, and frequently not only self destructive, but potentially capable of bringing about the total destruction of humanity and even galactic civilization.

Ok I ask again what is so bad about wanting to achieve dominance in an arena where your peers have a history of GENOCIDE.  I mean really, what's so bad.  Yes their methods are horrific but what is wrong with their goal?  You are dealing with a group of people who will (and have) throw an entire race under the bus if it suits their goals, why would you be content as their inferior.

[Andorfiend]

DPSSOC wrote...

Catching up, saw this a few pages back.

If they didn't believe humanity needed what they were doing they wouldn't do it.  At the very least they believe humanity will benefit from what they do whether they need it or not (if we only satisfied our needs we wouldn't have developed nearly as far as we have).

While I'll buy that Cerberus and even TIM may have good intentions, it simply doesn't matter. Lots of monsters have had good intentions. Actions speak louder than words, and Cerberuses actions have been reprehensible and counter-productive.

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok I ask again what is so bad about wanting to achieve dominance in an arena where your peers have a history of GENOCIDE.  I mean really, what's so bad.  Yes their methods are horrific but what is wrong with their goal?  You are dealing with a group of people who will (and have) throw an entire race under the bus if it suits their goals, why would you be content as their inferior.

Excellent question. The answer is, because it is utterly impossible for humanity to become supreme in the short term. Any one of the council races could easily crush humanity with half their fleet. Humanity has a total population of several billions, almost entirely on earth, with a few dozen sparsely settled colonies. The other races have populations in the hundreds of billions or trillions spread across scores or hundreds of fully settled and industrialized worlds. Most of those colony worlds have an industrial output capacity that dwarfs the manufacturing capacity of our entire species. If we went to war we would be crushed. The Volus could afford to take 20 to one losses against us and we would still be crushed.

Wondering why we shouldn't be trying to come out on top is like wondering why a 6 year old boy shouldn't study karate so he can beat up a 30 year old 250# bully. The answer is because it just doesn't matter. The boy is out classed. He needs to grow up and put on muscle.

Humanity has been a space faring species for, what, 50 years? A part of the Galactic community for 26ish? Hell there's probably a Krogan out there who's never heard of us because he's been in the bathroom that long.

Give us a couple of centuries to grow. Let us develop those colony worlds. Let us build a fleet that outmasses a Turian parade. Then worry about supremacy. In the battle of civilizations a single badass soldier simply doesn't matter. Armies matter. Fleets matter. Population numbers and Industrial capacity matter.

In light of that glaring and obvious truth, the fact that TIM tortured and murdered a significant portion of the first biotic human children in order for us to 'get an edge' is not only reprehensible, it is assinine. Especially when you consider that the timing means he started this project concurrently with the Conatix program and with absolutely no reason under the sun why he should think he could do a better job, or that a single super-biotic would somehow be better than several dozen normal biotics.

Face it, TIM would have done far more good for humanity if he plowed his money and charisma into funding new colonial projects instead of wiping them out. If he had fostered improved education on earth so we could catch up to the alien tech. If he has improved our relations with the council by buying them all some 'private time' with Sha'ira. But no, instead he's a kitten-eating-evil moron with a fanbase who think that good intentions makes up for a 20 year history of crimes against humanity.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 02 décembre 2011 - 03:38 .

[Andorfiend]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

While I'll buy that Cerberus and even TIM may have good intentions, it simply doesn't matter. Lots of monsters have had good intentions. Actions speak louder than words, and Cerberuses actions have been reprehensible and counter-productive.

Cerberus' actions are heroic and commendable. What say you to that?

Tell ya what. Why don't you draw up a list of the actions we have seen Cerberus take to date, and tell us what was heroic and commendable about each one. I'll address your points individually.

[BlueMagitek]

I have to disagree, Saphra, while there may have been a point to their actions, I wouldn't call some of them heroic or commendable.

Take the Arc Projector; that's commendable. Akuze? Not so commendable. They may have achieved something (that we don't learn about), but luring marines to die to study Thresher Maws isn't heroic or commendable.

The other big example, Teltin, commendable idea (study and make stronger human biotics), horrible, horrible execution. Even taking the moral objection out of it, they've been wasting human biotics. Especially at the time, that's a valuable resource they were blowing through. It was wasteful. Yes, we got something out of Jack, but was it worth it?

[feliciano2040]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

While I'll buy that Cerberus and even TIM may have good intentions, it simply doesn't matter. Lots of monsters have had good intentions. Actions speak louder than words, and Cerberuses actions have been reprehensible and counter-productive.

Cerberus' actions are heroic and commendable. What say you to that?

Crazy people are crazy.

Anyways, Cerberus is fantastic concept whatever we may think of their morals, never imagined when I first played ME 1 that they would have such an important role in the sequels !

[MisterJB]

BlueMagitek wrote...
The other big example, Teltin, commendable idea (study and make stronger human biotics), horrible, horrible execution. Even taking the moral objection out of it, they've been wasting human biotics. Especially at the time, that's a valuable resource they were blowing through. It was wasteful. Yes, we got something out of Jack, but was it worth it?

It was certainy wasteful but if the methods that were used to increase Jack's biotic powers can be applied in mass scale, I'd say it was worth it.

[BlueMagitek]

That's a large if. From what I understand, Jack's treatment seems to have led to the LX5 implants, and perhaps the LX4 implant. But we wasted a large number of biotics to get there, and Jack herself was supposed to have amazing potential starting out.

[DPSSOC]

Andorfiend wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Catching up, saw this a few pages back.

If they didn't believe humanity needed what they were doing they wouldn't do it.  At the very least they believe humanity will benefit from what they do whether they need it or not (if we only satisfied our needs we wouldn't have developed nearly as far as we have).

While I'll buy that Cerberus and even TIM may have good intentions, it simply doesn't matter. Lots of monsters have had good intentions. Actions speak louder than words, and Cerberuses actions have been reprehensible and counter-productive.

I'm not even trying to argue that Cerberus has good intentions, simply that whatever their intentions are they believe humanity needs what they're doing.  So saying "humanity doesn't need Cerberus." doesn't work as an argument because Cerberus, and the people who support and defend Cerberus, believe that humanity does need them, and neither side can quantify their position, nobody can say definitively what humanity needs because we all have our different ideas of what the species needs and where it needs to go.

Andorfiend wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Ok I ask again what is so bad about wanting to achieve dominance in an arena where your peers have a history of GENOCIDE.  I mean really, what's so bad.  Yes their methods are horrific but what is wrong with their goal?  You are dealing with a group of people who will (and have) throw an entire race under the bus if it suits their goals, why would you be content as their inferior.

Excellent question. The answer is, because it is utterly impossible for humanity to become supreme in the short term.  Any one of the council races could easily crush humanity with half their fleet.

 
I'm not entirely sure about this.  Now admittedly I'm sketchy on the military power of the Council to begin with.  I mean on the one hand we hear about things like the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions, but on the other the Council is scared to the point of inaction of a disorganized group of thugs who's largest combined effort to date was repelled by the Alliance alone.

If the Turians could have wiped us out they would have, it's what they do and it's why they're on the Council (to be the muscle).  I can understand the other races asking the Turians to lighten up when they didn't know just what kind of military force we were working with, but once they got a good look there's no reason they wouldn't have just turned Earth into a glass ball if it were an easy task to accomplish.  Also human military power is a hard thing to gauge since the galactic standard is dreadnoughts (of which we have few) but our tactics don't centre around them like the other races do.

Andorfiend wrote...
Give us a couple of centuries to grow. Let us develop those colony worlds. Let us build a fleet that outmasses a Turian parade. Then worry about supremacy. In the battle of civilizations a single badass soldier simply doesn't matter. Armies matter. Fleets matter. Population numbers and Industrial capacity matter.

 
A fair point.  I would point out however that we don't have centuries.  Even taking away the Reaper threat we know, from looking at their history and early interactions with us, that it's not a question of if but when they will screw us over.  The Volus took centuries, the hanar took centuries, the elcor took centuries, and it got them nowhere.  If we play their game at their pace we either end up like the Volus or the Krogan.

Andorfiend wrote...
In light of that glaring and obvious truth, the fact that TIM tortured and murdered a significant portion of the first biotic human children in order for us to 'get an edge' is not only reprehensible, it is assinine. Especially when you consider that the timing means he started this project concurrently with the Conatix program and with absolutely no reason under the sun why he should think he could do a better job,

 
Well one reason is the aliens are never going to teach us how to surpass them (which is his end goal), that's something we're going to have to learn ourselves.  Conatix was limited by the fact that it could only go as far as the aliens let it in terms of developing biotic power.

Andorfiend wrote...
or that a single super-biotic would somehow be better than several dozen normal biotics.

 
Jack was a proto-type, the goal of Teltin was to find the combination of conditioning and treatments to produce the most powerful human biotics possible.  Once found these techniques can be refined and applied broad-scale.  In essence, had Teltin not gone to hell (due entirely to how it was mismanaged and that is TIM's fault), every human biotic would be at Jack's level.

That's what Cerberus research is, it's testing the nuclear bomb by dropping it on somebody.  This method of research is risky and morally repugnant but it also gives the fastest, most accurate results.  You want a quick way to see if a new anti-venom works?  Have somebody get bit by a snake.

[CerberusWarrior]

Cerberus is not no stupid terrorist group but hey at least in 3 I will be a total ass to the alliance and if the so called BSN princess ashley gets in my way well the alliance trick will suffer

[111987]

CerberusWarrior wrote...

Cerberus is not no stupid terrorist group but hey at least in 3 I will be a total ass to the alliance and if the so called BSN princess ashley gets in my way well the alliance trick will suffer

It must kill you to know that you'll be killing Cerberus troops the whole game.

[Eclipse_9990]

111987 wrote...

CerberusWarrior wrote...

Cerberus is not no stupid terrorist group but hey at least in 3 I will be a total ass to the alliance and if the so called BSN princess ashley gets in my way well the alliance trick will suffer

It must kill you to know that you'll be killing Cerberus troops the whole game.

Thats what makes his posts so hilarious. 

[InvincibleHero]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

While I'll buy that Cerberus and even TIM may have good intentions, it simply doesn't matter. Lots of monsters have had good intentions. Actions speak louder than words, and Cerberuses actions have been reprehensible and counter-productive.

Cerberus' actions are heroic and commendable. What say you to that?

I wouldn't say all of them. Their goal and willingness to do what they have to in order that humanity survives the reapers despite being labelled as terrorist is certainly that. They are making sacrifices for the greater good but not always.

It draws parallels to the Civil War storyline in Marvel Comics. Iron Man and Reed Richards are two mainstay heroes and had to do things they knew would make them dirty and tarnish their reputation, but still did so to prevent Earth's destruction. They sacrficied greatly to see it through. That was a bravo moment IMO. Too many put their moral code over practicality and reason and won't let go no matter what. This is ego over others. What Iron Man and RR did was put the welfare of others over themselves and it was admirable though some (I would guess liberal) writers tried to paint them as villains/evil for their actions.

[Lotion Soronarr]

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Under that logic, no-one should be subject to laws and rules as long as they believe they are right.

You see the problem?

No, I don't. Rules are applied to those who don't have the means to ignore them. It's the natural state of things.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

What's there to disagree? She's right you know. It's how the world works.

Rules are set by those with the power to set them, and ignored by those with the power to ingore them. Do note that I use the term poeer here loosely, as there is more than 1 way to skin the cat.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 02 décembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...
Savvy? Cerberus's actions reflect on more than just Cerberus.

The actions of EVERY government reflect on more than jsut their own poeple.
It's why things like foreign policy, diplomacy and black ops exist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Andorfiend wrote...

Excellent question. The answer is, because it is utterly impossible for humanity to become supreme in the short term. Any one of the council races could easily crush humanity with half their fleet. Humanity has a total population of several billions, almost entirely on earth, with a few dozen sparsely settled colonies. The other races have populations in the hundreds of billions or trillions spread across scores or hundreds of fully settled and industrialized worlds. Most of those colony worlds have an industrial output capacity that dwarfs the manufacturing capacity of our entire species. If we went to war we would be crushed. The Volus could afford to take 20 to one losses against us and we would still be crushed.

Wondering why we shouldn't be trying to come out on top is like wondering why a 6 year old boy shouldn't study karate so he can beat up a 30 year old 250# bully. The answer is because it just doesn't matter. The boy is out classed. He needs to grow up and put on muscle.

Humanity has been a space faring species for, what, 50 years? A part of the Galactic community for 26ish? Hell there's probably a Krogan out there who's never heard of us because he's been in the bathroom that long.

Give us a couple of centuries to grow. Let us develop those colony worlds. Let us build a fleet that outmasses a Turian parade. Then worry about supremacy. In the battle of civilizations a single badass soldier simply doesn't matter. Armies matter. Fleets matter. Population numbers and Industrial capacity matter.


Face it, TIM would have done far more good for humanity if he plowed his money and charisma into funding new colonial projects instead of wiping them out. If he had fostered improved education on earth so we could catch up to the alien tech. If he has improved our relations with the council by buying them all some 'private time' with Sha'ira. But no, instead he's a kitten-eating-evil moron with a fanbase who think that good intentions makes up for a 20 year history of crimes against humanity.

And you're missing the point. It's EXACTLY becasue we DON'T have several centuries time to grow.
Unlesshumantiy puts some muscle - FAST - we'll end up dominated.
Not only in the military sense, but in all other senses - economic, cultural, scientific, etc etc..

The other races have a head start and an interest in keeping it. You don't close that gap by going slow.

Think of the council as the roman empire, and humanity as a small new kingdom - if you take it slow, you'll end up absorbed in one way or another.

[111987]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

111987 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Under that logic, no-one should be subject to laws and rules as long as they believe they are right.

You see the problem?

No, I don't. Rules are applied to those who don't have the means to ignore them. It's the natural state of things.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

What's there to disagree? She's right you know. It's how the world works.

Rules are set by those with the power to set them, and ignored by those with the power to ingore them. Do note that I use the term poeer here loosely, as there is more than 1 way to skin the cat.

There are plenty of people with power who still follow the rules.

Because if every person with the power to ignore the rules pulled a Cerberus, the galaxy would be a pretty screwed up place (moreso than it is already). Laws are necesarry to keep order.

[Someone With Mass]

Laws are established to maintain stability in societies, not just for s**ts and giggles.

I can see that some are playing on that note that rules are meant to be broken, and I think that's not really how it works. If you break a law, the law enforcement can arrest you for trying to disrupt the order.

They're there to make sure people can live safe and contribute to the good of the society they live in. To say that they're there to be broken, you're pretty much promoting anarchism.

Sure, there are some rules that appear unjust or appears to serve no reason beyond making the lives of the citizens miserable, but those rules can be altered or removed. If you have a problem with how things are handled according to the law, work to improve or change them, not break them.

[Archontor]

To those who say that Cerberus is ensuring human dominance I raise two points.

One the other council races are Sentient, sapient beings we have no more right to dominate them than our fellow man.

Secondly if you believe for whatever literally xenophobic reason that we must dominate or that we should increase in power I ask why not do this through diplomacy and business, for example medi-gel is used all across the galaxy, paying money straight into the alliance's economy.

Second for those that say Cerberus are good because they're doing something, we have no idea if the Council hasn't just decided to leave someone known for consorting with terrorists out of the loop and also, 'doing something' and doing the right thing are vastly different subjects.

[Andorfiend]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And you're missing the point. It's EXACTLY becasue we DON'T have several centuries time to grow.
Unlesshumantiy puts some muscle - FAST - we'll end up dominated.
Not only in the military sense, but in all other senses - economic, cultural, scientific, etc etc..

The other races have a head start and an interest in keeping it. You don't close that gap by going slow.

Think of the council as the roman empire, and humanity as a small new kingdom - if you take it slow, you'll end up absorbed in one way or another.

Excellent example. We remember figures like Bodeciea and Hannibal beause they had the indomitable will and leadership to stand up to the roman empire. To try and maintain their own peoples identity. We also remember that they lost. Bodeciea was killed and her people subjegated. Carthage was utterly destroyed.

The Vandals, who did eventually sack Rome, did it because they were co-opted. They learned Latin, joined the legions. Learned roman strategy and tactics, gained roman weapons and armour. They also retained their own identity, and when pushed too far by a corrupt system that failed to live up to it's obligations to what were, by then, it's own people, banded together under their own leaders who had gained years of experience in the Roman armies. Rome fell, because it was so corrupt it forgot about duty. It did not fall to brave outsiders who fought against subjegation. This is a highly simplified version of course, but it's true.

It's true that the Volus and Elcor are not on top, after centuries of membership in citidel space. What you seem to be missing is that:
A) They have prospered. Both are doing well with many worlds, and no existential threats that do not also threaten the member races like the Turians.
Neither races particularly wants to be on top. Both races seem to have little ambition militarily. While the volus evidently chafe under council direction, they mostly just seem to want more recognition, not rulership.
C) The Council structure does not have a first amoung equals. Even though the Turians are militarily the most powerful race, they were still stopped in the 1st contact war by the Council, when it came to their attention that the Turians were beating up on some newly found little race no-one else had ever heard of.
and therefore D) There is no one 'on top' in the current set-up besides the council, it's it obvious that the Council is open to the idea of Humanity joining it's ranks since there is discussion of it at the start of ME 1. So it's not moving as fast as humans might want, so what? It's perfectly reasonable for the Council races to want to see what these newcomers are like before they hand them the keys to the dreadnought. Remember there are still Asari around whose parents fought in the Rachni wars.

The Council doesn't do conquest. Period. Of the major threats they have faced so far, one ended in genocide (Rachni) and the other with containment (Krogan.) Since humanity clearly is not trying to conquer the Council races, even the slightest appreciation for Council history and motivations will show that they will, at worst, offer politcal hinderence or malign neglect to Humanity. Conquest simply isn't something they do, so why shrink in fear from it? They might try to contain us, as they did with the Krogan. And if they did there isn't a damm thing we could do about it.

Instead what they did was offer us access to the nastiest part of the galaxy. A place where humanity will need to grow as fast as possible, to militarily expand as fast as possible, and to punch above it's weight to survive. In other words the ideal training ground for us to become a real military power by galactic standards. Now all we need is time, and for someone to stop feeding our marines to thresher worms for lols.

[Arkitekt]

[quote]Andorfiend wrote...

Do try to follow along will you? [/Quote]


Shaaaaitteee... the irony is so big and why oh why do I suffer fools?

[quote]Cerberuses actions reflect upon humanity as a whole.[/quote]

Ridiculous.

[quote]Cerberus is not the appointed representative of humanity.[/quote]

Obvious.

[quote]So when they assassinate an alien politician, or invade an alien flotilla they are illegitimate reprentatives of humanity.[/quote]

They aren't representatives of humanity. So the question of legitimacy is moot. Obviously.

[quote]They also quite blatently hide most of their own activities even from other members of their organization as almost any discussion with the crew of the Normandy 2 will show you, so even by a purely internal standard they have no interest in legitimacy.[/quote]

Captain Obvious to the rescue. Hint: "Legitimacy is a rethorical tool that only concerned trolls concern themselves with. I've said this n times already. You are not following any ****ing thing.

[quote]I don't know why we are discussing the 'legitimacy' of a bunch of terrorists in any event. [/quote]

You don't know ****.

[quote]Feral Rachni loosed upon the galaxy.[/quote]

WTF?

[quote]They could have destroyed humanity themselves. They could have destroyed the whole galaxy themselves with no Krogan to stop them.[/quote]

W.T.F.??

[quote]The fact that a human agency let the feral Rachni loose could easily have led the council races to destroy humanity or at very least wipe out our colonies and pin us up back in the Sol system.[/quote]

What the **** are you rambling about? Exogeny is NOT Cerberus.

[quote]And lastly even if they proved incapable of wiping us out by themselves they could certainly serve as a fine distraction from the Reapers until it is too late, don't you think? Especially since we know how easily Rachni can be indoctrinated without forewarning.[/quote]

?!?!?!?!?!?

[quote]So there are three plausible existential threats Cerberus generated from a single supremely stupid act.[/quote]

The stupidity is elsewhere...

[quote]I agree that the comparison is inadequate. Jack the Ripper did not torture children. And Al-Queda and Timothy McVeigh put together have not killed nearly as many people as Cerberus.

Who do you suggest as closer parallels?[/quote]

Jeeesus. You don't know how to have a conversation. I'm done with you.

[Andorfiend]

Arkitekt wrote...

Andorfiend wrote...

Feral Rachni loosed upon the galaxy.

WTF?

Mass Effect wiki wrote...
Cerberus created cloned rachni on Binthu as part of their super-soldier research. More rachni are encountered at Alliance listening posts on Nepmos and Altahe. After clearing the rachni out, Shepard discovers they were specimens shipped from Noveria by Cerberus, and tracks them back to a depot in the Gorgon system. The depot is overrun with rachni and there are no survivors. After killing the rachni, Shepard finds the logs of the station's commanding officer named Flores who was involved in the project. She angrily claims they treated the rachni like animals when they should have treated them like POWs and leaves a recommendation that Cerberus pursue other projects; the rachni are too smart.

Arkitekt wrote...

Jeeesus. You don't know how to have a conversation. I'm done with you.

Splendid!  Might I suggest that in your newly found free time you play ME again? Try to remember what happens in it this time.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 02 décembre 2011 - 04:24 .