1381 réponses à ce sujet

[111987]

Arkitekt wrote...

Cerberuses actions reflect upon humanity as a whole.

Ridiculous.

No no, this is a fair one. Even if it's not right, it's what happens. Just like how many American believe most/all Muslims are dangerous terrorists because of the actions of a group like Al-Qaeda. Even in Mass Effect, people hate Batarians on pirinciple, based off of extremists like Balak. And the Salarians as a race are still judged for releasing the Genophage, when that was only one specfic group of Salarians (the STG).

[BlueMagitek]

Actually no, people tend to hate Batarians due to their cultural acceptance for slavery and the actions of their government (which encourages extremists like Balak).

Shall we take the Blood Pack as a representative of the Krogan and the Vorcha? Or the Eclipse as a representative of the Asari, Salarian and Human? Or should we judge the Asari based on the workings of Matriarch Benezia?

[Arkitekt]

I admit, I was punched hard by that Cerberus connection with the Rachni.... didn't do much in the side missions in ME1.

[111987]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Actually no, people tend to hate Batarians due to their cultural acceptance for slavery and the actions of their government (which encourages extremists like Balak).

Shall we take the Blood Pack as a representative of the Krogan and the Vorcha? Or the Eclipse as a representative of the Asari, Salarian and Human? Or should we judge the Asari based on the workings of Matriarch Benezia?

You clearly missed what I was saying...read my post again, and actually address it. I'll grant you the Batarians one (although I've seen people on these forums say they hate Batarians because they are terrorists).

I also said it wasn't right, but that's what happens. If you have a limited experience with a group or race, you base your conceptions about that race on the people you've seen. This happens all the time in the real world.

[BlueMagitek]

Alright, let's try again. The STG is an arm of the Salarian government. Cerberus is not an arm of the Alliance (anymore, or since ME 1 anyway).

As I recall from the game, if someone has a beef with Cerberus, they bring it up, instead of blaming it on humans (though there are those who do hate humans, and complain about them, don't get me wrong). Don't expect fictional creatures to act the same way that we would.

[sael_feman]

It will be interesting how Cerberus is dealt with in ME3.

I'd like to think the better elements of Cerberus can be incorporated into the Alliance.

There are some xenophobic elements in Cerberus, they can't really be reasoned with.

Also remember the indoctrination threat,

Most of us want Shepherd to be 'Pure', 'Unaffected' and kickass, though some of us want Shepherd to be evil.

But we'll see on the day.

S'F'

[111987]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Alright, let's try again. The STG is an arm of the Salarian government. Cerberus is not an arm of the Alliance (anymore, or since ME 1 anyway).

As I recall from the game, if someone has a beef with Cerberus, they bring it up, instead of blaming it on humans (though there are those who do hate humans, and complain about them, don't get me wrong). Don't expect fictional creatures to act the same way that we would.

Throughout this whole thread we have been arguing as if this was all real, and not just a game. If the ME universe was real, some people would see Cerberus's actions as representative of humanity, even if they aren't officially affiliated with the Alliance. Same was what happens in our world.

Remember what Liara said about humans in ME1? Humans are feared and in some cases mistrusted and disliked around the galaxy because they are so aggresive, move so fast, and quickly rose to power. Groups like Cerberus only lend credence to these kinds of beliefs. Which by itself doesn't have to be a bad thing if that's the image humanity wants to promote, but it does increase tension between humanity and the rest of the galaxy.

[BlueMagitek]

You can't expect an alien to have the same ideas we do; we see that the Hanar and Elcor seem rather content with their positions, and while the Volus are not, we do not see them make strides against it. It'd be like trying to use our human view of a situation vs. a qunari view of it; different point of view.

I had a response here, but I realized your point about it; yes, Cerberus' existence may influence some views, but it doesn't officially have support like the STG or the Spectre program. The vast, vast majority of humans have nothing to do with Cerberus, the face of humanity is the Alliance. I'd like to bring up that Cerberus was intended to be a Black Ops group; they don't go out of their way to make contact or claim credit for their work; it's hardly a household name like the Alliance, at least, in ME 1 & 2, not sure about 3, please no spoilers.

Once again, Cerberus isn't the face of humanity, that's the Alliance. We can judge the Salarian's because of the STG and we can judge the Council of the Spectre's deeds. But if anything, the Alliance's N7 group is the Alliance counterpart to the STG or Spectres, not Cerberus. I shall reiterate; should we judge the Turians & Batarians by the Blue Suns, the Krogan and Vorcha by the Blood Pack?

[Dean_the_Young]

Really, the idea that a small, criminalized, extremely small minority of hundreds some how represents a group of billions is, well...

You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that one is equivalent with the other in anything but a metaphorical sense. And given that we find plenty of Asari, Turian, and Salarian criminals, I think we can safely assume that the species of the galaxies aren't total retards to confuse Cerberus for representing Humanity as a whole.

And if they are, they're such retards they don't deserve to be anywhere close to a position of power.

[111987]

BlueMagitek wrote...

I had a response here, but I realized your point about it; yes, Cerberus' existence may influence some views, but it doesn't officially have support like the STG or the Spectre program.

Yeap, that's all I was saying. And yes you are right, it is different from the STG and Spectre situation, but the main idea is that the actions of a few can cause people to hate the entire group.

BlueMagitek wrote...
I shall reiterate; should we judge the Turians & Batarians by the Blue Suns, the Krogan and Vorcha by the Blood Pack?

It's not a question of 'should'; it's a question of what actually is. If you grew up on a colony like Midnoir, where the entire colony was wiped out by Batarians, you wouldn't have a favorable view of Batarians, even if deep down you knew that wasn't representative of the race.

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Really, the idea that a small, criminalized, extremely small minority of hundreds some how represents a group of billions is, well....

And yet it happens all the time in our world, albeit on a smaller scale.

Obviously people of your intelligence would see the stupidity of such a line of thinking, but I see it all the time in my life, and I'm sure others can relate.

[Eclipse_9990]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Once again, Cerberus isn't the face of humanity, that's the Alliance. We can judge the Salarian's because of the STG and we can judge the Council of the Spectre's deeds. But if anything, the Alliance's N7 group is the Alliance counterpart to the STG or Spectres, not Cerberus. I shall reiterate; should we judge the Turians & Batarians by the Blue Suns, the Krogan and Vorcha by the Blood Pack?

If you were to judge Turians&Batarians on account of the Blue Suns you'd have to judge humanity the same way as well; considering that there are a lot of humans in there. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 décembre 2011 - 06:31 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Really, the idea that a small, criminalized, extremely small minority of hundreds some how represents a group of billions is, well...

You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that one is equivalent with the other in anything but a metaphorical sense. And given that we find plenty of Asari, Turian, and Salarian criminals, I think we can safely assume that the species of the galaxies aren't total retards to confuse Cerberus for representing Humanity as a whole.

And if they are, they're such retards they don't deserve to be anywhere close to a position of power.

Nothing's stopping them for assuming that Cerberus represents a large part of humanity, though.

Much like how some people in the real world thought Al-Quaida represented the opinion of the majority of the muslims.

[Andorfiend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Really, the idea that a small, criminalized, extremely small minority of hundreds some how represents a group of billions is, well...

You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that one is equivalent with the other in anything but a metaphorical sense. And given that we find plenty of Asari, Turian, and Salarian criminals, I think we can safely assume that the species of the galaxies aren't total retards to confuse Cerberus for representing Humanity as a whole.

And if they are, they're such retards they don't deserve to be anywhere close to a position of power.

There are about a billion Muslims. What's the first thing that pops into your head when you think of Muslims?

Small groups can have a disproportionate impact on the image of the larger groups they are drawn from. Even 'secret' groups. During the cold war if you thought of the Russians, the KGB was one of the first associations. During the 1980s Ireland brought thoughts of the IRA. Somalia, pirates.

How about those Batarians? Most Batarians are not slavers, but try convincing the average human colonist of that. How about Balak? Did he change your view of the species when you met him in 'Bring down the sky'?

It's not just aliens of course. Cerberus are such incredibly destructive fools that the Alliance seriously thought they might be behind the destruction of entire colonies in ME 2. Not without reason either. If TIM really knew all along about the Reapers, perhaps he shouldn't have gone to such lengths to convince the people entrusted with defending mankind that TIM is a foaming madman who couldn't be trusted with anything. Then perhaps Shepard wouldn't have such an uphill battle convincing people of the Reaper threat. Sadly, it never occurred to TIM that he might actually need help until Shepard dies. In everything he has ever done, TIM always picks the most short-sighted and destructive approach. It is counter-productive beyond measure.

[BlueMagitek]

111987 wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

I had a response here, but I realized your point about it; yes, Cerberus' existence may influence some views, but it doesn't officially have support like the STG or the Spectre program.

Yeap, that's all I was saying. And yes you are right, it is different from the STG and Spectre situation, but the main idea is that the actions of a few can cause people to hate the entire group.

BlueMagitek wrote...
I shall reiterate; should we judge the Turians & Batarians by the Blue Suns, the Krogan and Vorcha by the Blood Pack?

It's not a question of 'should'; it's a question of what actually is. If you grew up on a colony like Midnoir, where the entire colony was wiped out by Batarians, you wouldn't have a favorable view of Batarians, even if deep down you knew that wasn't representative of the race.

Yes, but this is a very small few.  Cerberus wasn't about flashy missions, they're meant to do things in the dark.  The averge person isn't going to know what Cerberus is at all (in either Black Ops sense or Mythological sense).  As opposed to the big names like the STG or the Spectres, which are much more common (or the knowledge of them is, anyway).  

I understand what you're saying and I agree, but Cerberus isn't about the flash and sparkle; heck, an Admiral in the Alliance (where Cerberus spawned from) didn't know what Cerberus was until he did some digging.

And to my fellow user who pointed out that I'd have to judge humans in the Blue Suns as well, yes, that is true.  But you're missing the point.

[111987]

You raise a good point about Cerberus being a shadowy organization. In ME2 though it seems like they lost some of that mystique. It seems like everyone in the Alliance knows who they are. The Quarians all know who they are after the Gillian event. Aria and the people on Omega all seem to know about Cerberus. And they even openly interact with mercenary groups, like the Blue Suns on Purgatory. So it seems that they've become a little more widely known since the days where an Alliance Admiral didn't even know about them.

But I agree, it isn't a huge problem. I was just pointing out to the original poster, who said that it was ridiculous to even consider Cerberus representing humanity, that it isn't so ridiculous because undoubtedly some people's views about humanity have been affected by Cerberus actions.

[BlueMagitek]

Fair enough then. : )

[Dean_the_Young]

Andorfiend wrote...

There are about a billion Muslims. What's the first thing that pops into your head when you think of Muslims?

Followers of the Prophet. One of the largest religions in the world. Most of whom don't like AQ any more than I do.

Small groups can have a disproportionate impact on the image of the larger groups they are drawn from. Even 'secret' groups. During the cold war if you thought of the Russians, the KGB was one of the first associations. During the 1980s Ireland brought thoughts of the IRA. Somalia, pirates.

Only for people who have a very narrow perspective and awareness of things outside their own vision confuse one for the other. About the only one you actually have an actual association in that list was the KGB... which actually was an organ of the Soveit state.

Word association is not the same as branding. Your argument fits the same for 'cat' and 'dog.' The words are associated with eachother. Confusing one for the other is an execution of idiocy.

How about those Batarians? Most Batarians are not slavers, but try convincing the average human colonist of that.

Given that we've never been given 'human opinion polls' of any sort, you've no basis to claim the average human viewpoint.

How about Balak? Did he change your view of the species when you met him in 'Bring down the sky'?

Not really. Especially when BdtS went out on multiple limbs to cast him as someone not representative of eitherthe Batarian Hegemony or even the slavers.

It's not just aliens of course.

Idiots, mainly.

Nothing else you wrote really was relevant to what I was talking about, so it's rightfully dropped.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nothing's stopping them for assuming that Cerberus represents a large part of humanity, though.

Besides the criminilization, opposition, and rebutal by the Alliance and most Human groups, representing 99.9999% of Humanity?

Much like how some people in the real world thought Al-Quaida represented the opinion of the majority of the muslims.

And I suppose it's an inconvenient time to point out that those people were (a) widely uninformed, ( not in positions of power, and © a minority in their own delusions?

If your argument is that some idiots exist regardless, that's not hard. Some people think the Moon Landing was a hoax. Some people also think American President Obama was born anywhere but where his birth certificate says, in Hawaii. But minority crazy is not the same as a justified mass impression.

[Dean_the_Young]

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Really, the idea that a small, criminalized, extremely small minority of hundreds some how represents a group of billions is, well....

And yet it happens all the time in our world, albeit on a smaller scale.

By distinctly marginal minorities.

Obviously people of your intelligence would see the stupidity of such a line of thinking, but I see it all the time in my life, and I'm sure others can relate.

Do you see it all the time with most people?

[Laser Beam]

Idiots, sadly, are not the minority.

[Dean_the_Young]

Overall idiots are.

Most people are stupid in a small number of things, but largely practical and sensible in the rest.

[Laser Beam]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Overall idiots are.

Most people are stupid in a small number of things, but largely practical and sensible in the rest.

And stereotypes/generalizations are what is often found in that "small number of things" category.

Modifié par Laser Beam, 02 décembre 2011 - 10:31 .

[111987]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

111987 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Really, the idea that a small, criminalized, extremely small minority of hundreds some how represents a group of billions is, well....

And yet it happens all the time in our world, albeit on a smaller scale.

By distinctly marginal minorities.

Obviously people of your intelligence would see the stupidity of such a line of thinking, but I see it all the time in my life, and I'm sure others can relate.

Do you see it all the time with most people?

No offense, I have a lot of respect for your intelligence, but you're crazy if you think Islamic sterotyping doesn't happen in the U.S frequently. Or stereotyping in general.

Either way this is getting off-topic, so let's can this now.

[DPSSOC]

Archontor wrote...
Secondly if you believe for whatever literally xenophobic reason that we must dominate or that we should increase in power I ask why not do this through diplomacy and business, for example medi-gel is used all across the galaxy, paying money straight into the alliance's economy.

Because you can't win a game when your opponent is writing, and can alter as they please, the rules.  Imagine playing chess against someone who constantly changes how your pieces can move, what pieces you can take, etc. you aren't going to win no matter how good a player you are.  The Council will not let us surpass them if we play their game by their rules, we need to step outside the box.

Archontor wrote...
Second for those that say Cerberus are good because they're doing something, we have no idea if the Council hasn't just decided to leave someone known for consorting with terrorists out of the loop and also, 'doing something' and doing the right thing are vastly different subjects.

At the end of Arrival Hackett will point out that the Alliance has not been getting ready, is not ready, and probably won't be ready, to face a Reaper invasion.  Now why would Hackett lie to you at this point?  He's trusting you to just turn yourself in when you're called for trial but he doesn't trust you enough to let you know the Alliance has been preparing to take on the Reapers?  Or perhaps the Alliance is getting ready and has just left Hackett out of the loop which raises two more questions; how and why?  Same questions apply if the Council has been getting ready but is keeping the Alliance out of the loop.

We all need to just accept that the evidence points to the Council and the Alliance not believing in, and not preparing for, a Reaper invasion, rather than just not trusting Shepard and his/her connection to Cerberus.

Andorfiend wrote...
The Council doesn't do conquest. Period. Of the major threats they have faced so far, one ended in genocide (Rachni) and the other with containment (Krogan.) Since humanity clearly is not trying to conquer the Council races, even the slightest appreciation for Council history and motivations will show that they will, at worst, offer politcal hinderence or malign neglect to Humanity.

You sir (or madam) are very bad at worst case scenarios. at worst the Council will use us to fight the Batarians/Terminus for them and then cast us aside (see Krogan). Or some massive disaster will occur decimating our population and they will, as they always have, look on and say, "Sucks to be you don't it." (see Quarians)