1381 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Whichis why the reapers are our future.
2.Not ture at all. The only thing lost is the consept of being alone. Thr geth are still free individual, which is clear in the very fact that they can disagree with one another. The problem is that that reapers want to force the change.

1. Maybe, but not the Reapers we know, they are not our tech... and our culture is not ready.

2. I was talking about the reapers, the geth are one being, they always have been. They don't disagree because they aren't individuals, they reach concensus based on the data gathered by mobile platforms, they are still one being that gathers all information from it's roots, and then, it decides the most logical path. They may have become 2 different individuals when they separated in true geth and heretic geth. But we still don't know how that happened.
The reapers take all individuals and force them to be one.

1. But weare using reaper teck.....Everything in ME is reaper tech.

2. We don't know the full detail of what they are doing with the tech. Remeber, they do want to turn people in to reapers. What does the body of the person matter?

1º But I was talking about our reality, not the universe of Mass Effect.

2º I don't care about my body... well, yes... but that's not the point. Sovereign said "We are each a nation" I don't know if this means that every reaper is one, or that previosly individual beings remain as such within the Reaper shell. I want my opinion to matter.

1. You do realise weare arguing over a game world, real life is irrelivent.
2,But does that mean one will only? Remeber, Legion said they were many programs in the reaper and they saw that the reaper is a possible future for theselves as well. Their has to be simularities between reapes and geth for the geth to be able to see a likeness. They would not see that if the reaper they met was one will.

[Gabey5]

They are utterly incompetent

from what i read from the drafts they are even more stupid in me3

[AdmiralCheez]

I understand the whole "play dirty to stay in the game" shtick Cerb's got going, and I admire their devotion, but seriously, TIM needs to lay off the cognac.

Problem: The Terra Firma Party loses public support after a nasty scandal and some bad press.
Solution: Kill puppies.

[GodWood]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Problem: The Terra Firma Party loses public support after a nasty scandal and some bad press.
Solution: Kill puppies.

Yes well, that's Bioware's paragon bias rearing it's ugly head again.

[AdmiralCheez]

GodWood wrote...

Yes well, that's Bioware's paragon bias rearing it's ugly head again.

Hey, Cerberus backs off the puppy killing, and they have my full support.  It's vital that humanity as a nation-species be both self-sustaining and economically/politically/martially on par with all the other major players if we don't want to get steamrolled by the rest of the galaxy.

They're doing research to understand biotics as both a natural phenomenon and a valuabe resource?  Awesome.  Sign me up for the non-biotic control group.  Oh, wait, nevermind, they're kidnapping and drugging up orphans.

They're donating money and manpower to help get a certain politician elected?  Well, that's definitely within their rights--oops, they just assassinated the competition.  There goes my backing.

It's like Cave Johnson meets Dr. Evil, only they're not funny and they're legitimately threatening.

Look, you have a right to disagree with what the writers have decided to do, but unless you tralala into fanficland, their word is canon.  Considering everything that happened in ME1, ME2, and all the tie-in media, it was a touch on the delusional side to think that Cerberus would suddenly be the heroes in ME3.  Additionally, the final conversation with TIM in ME2 alone, regardless of paths chosen by the player, was basically flashing "THIS MAN IS NO LONGER YOUR FRIEND" in giant neon letters.

Bias or no, you saw it coming.

[CptBomBom00]

I know 1 thing, give me ME3 and point me in the right direction to TIM and I will make sure that the reunion is coming at muzzle velocity.

[didymos1120]

Yuoaman wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

If I were to kill you and everyone else on earth and turn all of your toenails into sculptures of birds would you still exist? Would you have mastered me?

No and that isn't what the Reapers do.

They use our genetic material to create a new Reaper. They aren't human, we are more than just genetic material.

Legion says that it is "one hypothesis among many", and they haven't really gotten any real information to conclusively know for certain at that point.

No, Legion says it was one hypothesis among many.  Point being, the others pretty much fell out of the running after seeing the Human-Reaper Larva (and Legion was pretty much convinced before that:  hence saying "The Reapers are more your future than ours" before the Suicide Mission). 

And yes, in-universe, we couldn't be certain.  But we're not discussing things from an in-universe perspective.  Or at least,  I'm not, so I'm perfectly free to consider things like this dialogue obviously not being thrown in on a whim, but rather to tell us players what Reapers actually are.  If you want to restrict yourself solely to in-universe reasoning, however, go ahead.

And who's to say the uploaded minds would remain as they are?

I didn't say they did.  In fact, I rather doubt they do remain unaltered. Have to make sure the new Reaper behaves like a Reaper somehow, after all.  But this has nothing to do with the fact that it's not just them taking our DNA, as you stated. 

[CroGamer002]

sponge56 wrote...

1)  Cerberus is an inherently RACIST/SPECIEST organisation.

There's a better word for that.


Bigot.

It has the same meaning, only not restricted to race.

[Zatwu]

If Cerberus just wanted humanity to be powerful than they wouldn't be so bad. But they don't just want to be on par with the other races, they want to rule over them. All of them.

And btw, I have to laugh at saying Cerberus is effective or Cerberus is an asset. Cerberus has more Fail than the Boston Red Socks. They succeeded at one thing, which was also the thing they probably had the least involvement in. If it weren't for the Shepard being a demigod they'd have failed that one too.

Also there is the obvious reason Cerberus is evil which I doubt anyone can sincerely deny: THEY'RE WORKING WITH THE REAPERS TO GENOCIDE THE GALAXY! Seriously, how dumb would it be to defend them after that? And don't say "Trust TIM," because if IRL someone decided to commit genocide and told you to "trust him" you wouldn't. Or at least I hope you wouldn't...

Modifié par Zatwu, 12 novembre 2011 - 11:18 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

That's just character/faction assassination to railroad you into working against them.

[Phaedon]

One reason that they can't be defended too well is the fact that it has been around two and a half millenias since utilitarianism as a valid moral code has been violently kicked to death and proven wrong.

And I am not exaggerating.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

only they're not funny and they're legitimately threatening.

Not an avid reader of the Invasion comics, are we.

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 novembre 2011 - 12:26 .

[sponge56]

Phaedon wrote...

One reason that they can't be defended too well is the fact that it has been around two and a half millenias since utilitarianism as a valid moral code has been violently kicked to death and proven wrong.

And I am not exaggerating.

Yep, defending utilitarian organisations such as Cerberus is challenging at the least

Modifié par sponge56, 12 novembre 2011 - 01:14 .

[nitefyre410]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Yes well, that's Bioware's paragon bias rearing it's ugly head again.

Hey, Cerberus backs off the puppy killing, and they have my full support.  It's vital that humanity as a nation-species be both self-sustaining and economically/politically/martially on par with all the other major players if we don't want to get steamrolled by the rest of the galaxy.

They're doing research to understand biotics as both a natural phenomenon and a valuabe resource?  Awesome.  Sign me up for the non-biotic control group.  Oh, wait, nevermind, they're kidnapping and drugging up orphans.

They're donating money and manpower to help get a certain politician elected?  Well, that's definitely within their rights--oops, they just assassinated the competition.  There goes my backing.

It's like Cave Johnson meets Dr. Evil, only they're not funny and they're legitimately threatening.

Look, you have a right to disagree with what the writers have decided to do, but unless you tralala into fanficland, their word is canon.  Considering everything that happened in ME1, ME2, and all the tie-in media, it was a touch on the delusional side to think that Cerberus would suddenly be the heroes in ME3.  Additionally, the final conversation with TIM in ME2 alone, regardless of paths chosen by the player, was basically flashing "THIS MAN IS NO LONGER YOUR FRIEND" in giant neon letters.

Bias or no, you saw it coming.

 


Hey Hey don't put  Cave Johnson in the same sentence as  Cerberus the Portal gun is  gaint sucess and  Turrents - Just try to touch that baby - I dare ya.  Of course there was poisoning and  GaLDOS   having a little emotional broken and Neuro- Toxin. Nothing in terms the terms of the  Cerberus... even in a  "renegade"  mind some of those moves make absolutely  no damn  sense. Now they are working with the Reapers - either this is the biggest  Gambit  in history or someone along the lines  has seriously dropped the ball because TIM suddenly after  spending 30 years of his life to build a organization to stop something just suddenly turn  and work them.
  
"Hey lets bring Shepard back to Life.." Me: Sucess 

"Now lets build an army and kill him by working with his mortal enemies"  Me:  *Scooby Doo WTF*   

Me I am and always a big  backer of taking Cerberus for myself , taking TIM out. I can do that in  Fallout New Vegas and its freaking awesome.   Why not in Mass Effect ?   


On  the Bolded text yes I agree with you   - never saw  TIM  as a friend but the change that they made in ME 3 - I still see as kinda extreme. I always liked them  morally ambigous shadow organization you can't trust but you need to  get this done.  Its like the Leauge of Assassins and Ra Al Gaul's from Batman -  Batman can't trust them completely  and does not agree with Ra Al Gaul's methods but  Batman can not deny that something  the League is right at times.  They most stay out of each others way.  
 

Modifié par nitefyre410, 12 novembre 2011 - 01:36 .

[BatmanPWNS]

It's their opinion. Let them believe what they want, it ain't gonna effect your Shepard.

[lovgreno]

They are losers, just like their real life imperialist, supremacist and elitist counterparts. Making everyone your enemy tends to lead to self defeat you know.

[Xilizhra]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

That's just character/faction assassination to railroad you into working against them.

Cerberus hasn't changed in the slightest. They just don't need you anymore.

[Izhalezan]

Yuoaman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Human has a pretty strict definition. A human is a biological organism. "Humanity" however is more of a concept.

noun, plural -ties.
1.
all human beings collectively; the human race; humankind.

Alright, sure.

So what does it mean to lose ones "humanity"? to lose all my humans collectively? who are my humans?

[didymos1120]

Izhalezan wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Human has a pretty strict definition. A human is a biological organism. "Humanity" however is more of a concept.

noun, plural -ties.
1.
all human beings collectively; the human race; humankind.

Alright, sure.

So what does it mean to lose ones "humanity"? to lose all my humans collectively? who are my humans?

That's a different sense of the word.  The way in which TIM was using it doesn't really fit.  Not unless you think TIM was actually saying "Cerberus is [the quality of being humane]." There's another sense you might think would fit, but it doesn't really work either: "Cerberus is [the condition, quality, or fact of being human]." Why doesn't that work? Because of the context. Namely the line of TIM's that immediately precedes it: "Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human."  And I think we can all agree TIM wasn't thinking of any of the various academic fields collectively called "the humanities".

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:15 .

[CARL_DF90]

An extremist group like them can only expect large nukes from me. The experiments they did in ME1 were bad enough but when Jack's origins were brought into light (torture/experimentation on children) that did it for me. Every play-through I told T.I.M. to f#@% off. I so REALLY look forward to killing him in ME3.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. Whichis why the reapers are our future.
2.Not ture at all. The only thing lost is the consept of being alone. Thr geth are still free individual, which is clear in the very fact that they can disagree with one another. The problem is that that reapers want to force the change.

1. Maybe, but not the Reapers we know, they are not our tech... and our culture is not ready.

2. I was talking about the reapers, the geth are one being, they always have been. They don't disagree because they aren't individuals, they reach concensus based on the data gathered by mobile platforms, they are still one being that gathers all information from it's roots, and then, it decides the most logical path. They may have become 2 different individuals when they separated in true geth and heretic geth. But we still don't know how that happened.
The reapers take all individuals and force them to be one.

1. That's also part of theproblem. We many never getto the point we are ready which is why the reapers are forceing itnow.
2.No,the reapers and Geth are not one being. They are beingwith shared consussnes, your thinking of a hive mind which they are not. A proper exampleofahive mind is like the bugger queen from Ender's game.(Read the series, it'sa good book.) Sheis abeing that had total control of her children, out side of otherqueens she gave birth to, which each indivisual was her eyes, ears, legs and hand.They hadno will of their own. Legion has many wills and they have different beleifs in some thing which is made clear on his loyalty mission when all thegeth in it's platform where split on the decission. The reapersare no one will as well. Legion comferms this.

[Volus Warlord]

CARL_DF90 wrote...

An extremist group like them can only expect large nukes from me. The experiments they did in ME1 were bad enough but when Jack's origins were brought into light (torture/experimentation on children) that did it for me. Every play-through I told T.I.M. to f#@% off. I so REALLY look forward to killing him in ME3.

How emotional and dramatic.


The way Cerberus works is each operation is rather autonomous; they are given a goal, resources, and told to do it. So, in Jack's case, TIM wants to know exactly how to make humans biotics at any point (rather than dumping eezo all over and hoping for the best). That research group, in turn, chose to do all the tests on children. TIM is not directly responsible for what happened to the children or Jack.  It'd be like saying Udina is responsible for a tax collector doing business on the side.                  

[Dean_the_Young]

Phaedon wrote...

One reason that they can't be defended too well is the fact that it has been around two and a half millenias since utilitarianism as a valid moral code has been violently kicked to death and proven wrong.

And I am not exaggerating.

What sort of utilitarianism are you talking about here? Because the actual philosophy of Utilitarianism isn't two hundred fifty, let alone two thousand fife hundred, years old.

Various consequentialist philosophies have been around for as long as human philosophy and ethics have existed. Teleological ethics (the morality is based on the overall effects, not the nature of the action) are a cornerstone of nearly all secular legal systems and political relations in the world today.

[Volus Warlord]

Phaedon wrote...

One reason that they can't be defended too well is the fact that it has been around two and a half millenias since utilitarianism as a valid moral code has been violently kicked to death and proven wrong.

And yet utilitarianism still rules the world.

[SandTrout]

sponge56 wrote....

1)  Cerberus is an inherently RACIST/SPECIEST organisation.  They aim to make humanity the dominant power in the galaxy, subjugating the other races.

The alternative is being subjugated by the Council, which is an overtly racist governmental structure.

I don't understand how so many people on these forums can defend such as organisation.  The Mass Effects series makes it obvious that all races are fundamentally 'human' in regards to their emotions and core beliefs.  The only things which separate the races are some cultural and political differences.  The mantra of 'humanity has to be protected' has disturbing resonances to real life White Supremicist organisations, but I hopefully doubt that those defending Ceberus would defend this outlook.

While there is some truth in the comarison, there is also a fundimental flaw. Racial Seperatists (not just white supremicists) operate on the principal that the various human ethnicities are intrinsically incapable of assimiliation with each other. This is a false premise. In ME, the Xeno-national oragnizations operate on the principal that assimilation is intrinsically not possible between the different species. This is a true premise because interbreeding is not possible.

2) Humanity doesn't really need to ascend.  A war with the other alien species is highly unlikely or even impossible due to the size of Humanity's fleet.  While not as large as the Turians, it poses a significant enough threat so that war would be very costly for both sides.  Also, Humanity is constantly given more and more powers and freedom by the Council in a very quick space of time, so why do we need such an organisation?

On this, you are wrong. We have been at de facto war with someone ever since we entered the galactic scene. First contact was war with the Turians. After we started settling the Attican Traverse, we have been in a proxy war with the Batarians, and then we were in a direct war with the Geth, then the shadow war with the Collectors, followed shorting by the direct war with the Reapers.

3) Many pro-cerberus supporters go on about how Cerberus represents and acts for humanity.  It does nothing of the sort.  Cerberus acts on the behalf of the Illusive Man, an individual figure who calls all the shots in his organisation.  The Alliance is run by elected officials who are voted into their respective positions, who elected the Illusive Man?  His funders trust he will act with humanity's best interests, but I doubt they know or have a say on a ything that he actually does.

While I agree that Cerberus does not represent humanity, it does (generally) act based on the overall interests of the species. Also, claiming that the people responsible for funding Cerberus have no say regarding Cerberus's actions is a rather silly assertion. While they do not likely have direct influence, TIM must convince them that their investement is worth-while, and if they ever become dissatisfied with TIM, they have the option of pulling funding and starting a new organization.