178 réponses à ce sujet

[jeweledleah]

dreman9999 wrote...

Oh, that's b.s.... She didn't even know if it the project would work. It's not her fault the coucil is the way they are, they always are writtin to be idiotic in the terms of millitary matters. Even if she told the council, they still will be stating reapers do not exsist. And the alliance is still on your side anyway.

oh no, its not.  she kept updated, I can guarantee you that and the moment the project started to look like it was actualy working - she should have updated them.  the moment the rumors started going around about Shepard being alive and working for the Cerberus?  she should have contacted Anderson and told him what was relaly going on.  She chose not to.  and thanks to her, Alliance distrusts you, Anderson says he trusts you but he tells you nothing and when you find out on your own - he tells you that he woudln't have told you anyways, because of Cerberus connection.  and yes, confrontation on Horizon could have gone better if only VS knew that it was Liara who gave Shepard's body to Cerberus, instead of being stuck with rumors that make it sound like Shepard faked their own death.  the whole "you are a traitor"  thing could have been avoided.

she meant well.  and she was probably afraid to say anything.  but she still made the wrong choice.  you know what they say about road to hell.

Resenting Liara for not telling others about you rising from the dead?
She may be the reason the Alliance was informed and so not surprised
that you were walking around

no, that would be TIM who started planting those rumors the moment it became apparent that Shepard is going to wake up for good, soon.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 13 novembre 2011 - 06:30 .

[Barquiel]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

She also wasn't taken by the collectors on horizon and avoided their detection the entire time Shepard was on the planet. So again, she wouldn't be dead without Shepard. The only time is on Virmire, sorry pal.

The collectors retreat because of Shepard. Ashley would be reaper goo without Shepards help on Horizon.

She shows up in a completely different spot on the other side of the colony than when she was frozen. That suggests to me that she somehow was free of the seeker swarms paralysis sooner than the colonits. Unless she just teleported there instantly after shepard made the collector ship leave. 

If she's not frozen, she's not taken, and if she's not taken... she's not reaper goo. 

The collectors moved the frozen colonists...loading them to their ship. Do you really want to tell me that the collectors abducted millions of humans/dozens of colonies...but the VS is the only one who can avoid abduction without Mordins countermeasure?

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Barquiel wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

She also wasn't taken by the collectors on horizon and avoided their detection the entire time Shepard was on the planet. So again, she wouldn't be dead without Shepard. The only time is on Virmire, sorry pal.

The collectors retreat because of Shepard. Ashley would be reaper goo without Shepards help on Horizon.

She shows up in a completely different spot on the other side of the colony than when she was frozen. That suggests to me that she somehow was free of the seeker swarms paralysis sooner than the colonits. Unless she just teleported there instantly after shepard made the collector ship leave. 

If she's not frozen, she's not taken, and if she's not taken... she's not reaper goo. 

The collectors moved the frozen colonists...loading them to their ship. Do you really want to tell me that the collectors abducted millions of humans/dozens of colonies...but the VS is the only one who can avoid abduction without Mordins countermeasure?

The fact is... they never tell us. You assume the collectors moved her. I assume someone had to kill those dead collectors and husks that Shepard finds along the way. It wasn't the colonists or that cowardly mechanic hiding in his bunker. Who was it? 

You may well be right, but I'm just going on what I've seen. 

[PMC65]

jeweledleah wrote...

Resenting Liara for not telling others about you rising from the dead?
She may be the reason the Alliance was informed and so not surprised
that you were walking around

no, that would be TIM who started planting those rumors the moment it became apparent that Shepard is going to wake up for good, soon.

TIM was feeding the machine as well but Anderson never says how he found out nor does Shepard's mother. So I guess that the game leaves that a blank for you the player to fill in. Unless they decide to revisit it in ME3 and clear some things up. Who knows.

If your Shepard blames Liara for part or even all of the Horizon fiasco, plus the Alliance/council's mistrust ... then I'm good with that. It just doesn't work for any of my Shepards. As I said. It's your dime, time and gameplay.

[jeweledleah]

PMC65 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Resenting Liara for not telling others about you rising from the dead?
She may be the reason the Alliance was informed and so not surprised
that you were walking around

no, that would be TIM who started planting those rumors the moment it became apparent that Shepard is going to wake up for good, soon.

TIM was feeding the machine as well but Anderson never says how he found out nor does Shepard's mother. So I guess that the game leaves that a blank for you the player to fill in. Unless they decide to revisit it in ME3 and clear some things up. Who knows.

If your Shepard blames Liara for part or even all of the Horizon fiasco, plus the Alliance/council's mistrust ... then I'm good with that. It just doesn't work for any of my Shepards. As I said. It's your dime, time and gameplay.

I, the player resent her, a little bit.  my Shepards are a mixed bag.  Canon Shepard is greatful.

[Dariustwinblade]

Ashley had to be saved thrice. All three due to incompetance.

She was running from two geth drones. Which is pretty pethetic compared to Liara who fought he way through hords of mercs to get shepards body.

No Ashley would have died if you hadn't come she specifically says this.
She was exhausted and weak. Comparing her to an N7 special ops-trained-and groomed-by-the-best-Anderson and Hackett is a downright insult to Shepard.

Even by a miracle she survived the geth attack. SAREN'S NUKES would have blown her up to the first three letters to her name. ASH!

So yeah shep had to save her.

Vermire u say she would have survived the geth attack well think again vermire prooved how they couldnt handle the gets. Both party got pinned down by what was three or four geth. So no vermire she had to be safe.


Horizon speaks for itself.

Liara has to be saved once. And pays you back by saving Shep's body.

Incase you missed it Liara is fiercely loyal to those who save her. EX: Feron and Shep.

Also the second time when Shep goes to "SAVE Liara" in the dracon trade center in lotsb.

Its Liara who saves Sheperd from Vasir from becoming a "Nihilus 2.0"

She also saved him from being 'biotic glass skewered'. How many squadmates can say they have saved and helped Shep. What has Ash done other than put herself and others in harms way.

She smack down Vasir when Shep drops his clips.

In turn Shepard saves her from the Shadow Broker's table.

And she was the one who found out how to beat the broker.

Unlike all the other relationship and friendship Liara, Joker, Anderson and Miranda are only ones that does something for Shepard. And is not onesided.

Shep gained the most from a platonic/romantic relation from Liara.


Think before you guys call her a damsel in distress while elavating a ****ty character like Ashley to uber competant,tough and independant.

[outmane]

My canon Shep blames Liara for handing her over to Cerberus. No, its not logical. Yes she'd be dead if Liara has done what she did.

But shes a colonist kid with the sole survivor background. She's scarred and cant get over being forced to work with Cerberus. She knows she shouldnt be mad at Liara but the ressentment is there anyway.

ME3 will really tell who my Shep reconciliate with. Liara or the VS. She has things to work out with both.

[Dariustwinblade]

No topic no Liara is nothing like Anders. In DA:A he was not clingy or shy. In Da2 he can HATE HAWKE and betray him. Liara can never hate Shep nor would she betray him.

Leave the DA and ME comparison alone. They don't match up.

[Agamo45]

Liara isn't a whiny little **** like Anders so far.

[FoxHound109]

I never understood the hatred for Liara, to be honest. Especially during the events of ME 2 all the way up to the events of LotSB. As much as I love Ashley and all the other ladies in the Mass Effect universe, Liara is the one that shows the greatest amount of character growth in the series. She wasn't so much a "damsel in distress" as she was just a naive, sort of awkward young girl (she's young for an Asari). Shepard's death changed her for the better; she became stronger, smarter, and in some ways more stone-hearted than she used to be. She feels like the ONLY character from the original Normandy crew who actually experienced ANY level of REAL change after discovering the Reapers and the destruction of Sovereign. I always felt like a situation like that would change how the characters reacted but I never really saw much change in any of the others. I can excuse Ashley because she's a soldier and I suppose her writer/s can bank on the "she's seen a lot in the battlefield" line of thinking, but nobody else really changed much to my recollection except maybe Garrus...

o_O

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

FoxHound109 wrote...

I never understood the hatred for Liara, to be honest. Especially during the events of ME 2 all the way up to the events of LotSB. As much as I love Ashley and all the other ladies in the Mass Effect universe, Liara is the one that shows the greatest amount of character growth in the series. She wasn't so much a "damsel in distress" as she was just a naive, sort of awkward young girl (she's young for an Asari). Shepard's death changed her for the better; she became stronger, smarter, and in some ways more stone-hearted than she used to be. She feels like the ONLY character from the original Normandy crew who actually experienced ANY level of REAL change after discovering the Reapers and the destruction of Sovereign. I always felt like a situation like that would change how the characters reacted but I never really saw much change in any of the others. I can excuse Ashley because she's a soldier and I suppose her writer/s can bank on the "she's seen a lot in the battlefield" line of thinking, but nobody else really changed much to my recollection except maybe Garrus...

o_O

Well, Ashley hasn't really had the chance.

She was in ME2 for all of what... 3 minutes? Can't have much character growth in that time at all. 

Though she is gonna be a spectre and an officer, so that's something. 

[CptData]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

I never understood the hatred for Liara, to be honest. Especially during the events of ME 2 all the way up to the events of LotSB. As much as I love Ashley and all the other ladies in the Mass Effect universe, Liara is the one that shows the greatest amount of character growth in the series. She wasn't so much a "damsel in distress" as she was just a naive, sort of awkward young girl (she's young for an Asari). Shepard's death changed her for the better; she became stronger, smarter, and in some ways more stone-hearted than she used to be. She feels like the ONLY character from the original Normandy crew who actually experienced ANY level of REAL change after discovering the Reapers and the destruction of Sovereign. I always felt like a situation like that would change how the characters reacted but I never really saw much change in any of the others. I can excuse Ashley because she's a soldier and I suppose her writer/s can bank on the "she's seen a lot in the battlefield" line of thinking, but nobody else really changed much to my recollection except maybe Garrus...

o_O

Well, Ashley hasn't really had the chance.

She was in ME2 for all of what... 3 minutes? Can't have much character growth in that time at all. 

Though she is gonna be a spectre and an officer, so that's something. 

I second that. Liara got a lot of development since she was present in ME and ME2 with "big roles". LotSB is the proof you can give someone a meaningful role without having that character being a permanent member of the Normandy.

The VS got ... nothing. Niente. Null. We had a brief moment on Horizon plus a letter in case the VS was your LI. That's it. After Horizon you can go keep that LI or go for another one - the VS doesn't play any role anymore in ME2, the VS doesn't mind if you start a new relationship. Liara does, if you do LotSB after cheating on Liara.

The main issue I have here is, that the VS got no attention at all in ME2. ME2 could have worked without Ashley or Kaidan on Virmire. Still same mission, still same deal. It feels as if BW decided to put the VS here to have him or her in the game at all. But like Udina, Anderson, the Council and several other characters from ME, it was not more than a very short cameo.
Somehow I can understand all those guys who have a ME2!LI. They fear their LI could be treated like the VS in ME2 - zero influence, story-wise and romance-wise.

But that's not Liara's fault as Reed (I'm sure he did it) stated before. It's BW fault.

[dreman9999]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Samara would kill alot of copwhen she first breaks out, but no matter how bad they are, it a group in mass goes after you your going to be overwhelemed over time. If all of illiumsPolice go after her, she will die.

Jack was in the cryo because she killed every person who gang raped her in that prison.....If they can overwhelem and rape an all powerful biotic, then it'sclear it's not a safe place.Also, saving a damsil in distress does not mean saving them from death only, it also meanssaving them from capture, Jack is capturedin that JAIL.

Ashley would ofbeen kill hands down. the direction she was running to had 2 geth and 4 droids.Remeber, you did distrory then on your way to her. If you were not there, shewould of ran in to them. In the end, if you where not there,she would be facing 4 geth and 6 driods. And she is not commader Shepard, 2 geth is easy for Shepard to take out, not the same for any other person.

And Liara is not a damsil is distress for ME because she 's only saved once......Many other character have been saved more then she has...Much more.

oh for the love of...

Samara is NOT going to be overwhelmed by a bunch of cops. Not to mention, when she breaks out... she's right next to the freakin shuttle port. Easy to get away.

Not sure where you got the "gang raped" her part... but even if that is true, you said she killed every one of them. Therefore, meaning she cleared herself of the danger and is now in cryo... SAFE from all that. Again... not a life threatening situation. 

Thinking Ashley can't kill two geth b/c she isn't Shepard is just dumb. Not even gonna argue that anymore.

Liara in ME1 is the very definition of a damsel in distress. Stuck in a place she can't even try to get out of herself. She will die if not for the hero and she is actively calling to the hero for aid. Oh and she is easy on the eyes. classic Damsel.

Yes, Samara will be overwhelemed by an army of cops, any one would nomatter how bass ass they are.

Also, The rape comment is from her comment on the citidel. http://www.youtube.c...=57S_Z2aC6FQ...
And even if she kill them all, it still is avery dangerous place. And she was capture. One ofthe things you save a damsil in distress form is being captured.

Again, she was not just running from 2 geth. She was also about to run into 4 turrents and 2 more geth, and the 2 geth she is running form has better tech, weopons and protection then she does. Shepard is a n7 opporative, he/she has the gear and skill to kill 2 geth easily, Ashily does not.

And no, Liara is not a damsel in distress  because you only save her once. Ashley fitsyour difiniton more then liara.

No, not when you are one of the most powerful biotics in the galaxy and are like 20 feet from the shuttles.

It may be dangerous, but she proved she can handler herself and is in cyro.... which is SAFE from all the "dangers" of the place. 

Ashley is equally skilled with a gun and even more skilled if your shepard isn't a soldier. Not to mention she becomes a spectre as well. She's just as skilled. No way a few geth kill her. She was the only one alive in her squad for a reason. She knows how to fight and survive.

Again, she fits the definition more than any of the above do. Seriously, look up the phrase damsel in distress. I did, just to make sure. If ANY of the above three women are damsels in distress. So is Liara.

Agein, your ingoring the fact that being captured is part of being a damsel in distress....Anf Jack is captured and need release, that makes her a damsel in distress.
As for Ashley, when you meet her she is not at that level. She is just a grunt. She was facing enemies with better tech then she....She would not live at the level she was in whn you met her. She later become what you think she is then but she not that powerful whrn you meet her.

[FoxHound109]

I'm not exactly blaming Ashley for that fiasco, I'm simply pointing out the actual facts: nobody else got proper character development. My general point is that it's hard to hate Liara when she's one of the few characters that Bioware actually developed. She's the most "complete" of all the crew members thus far.

I do often feel like Bioware is really unfair to the V.S. though...

=|

[Fdingo]

Aurora313 wrote...

Liara is the one thing I disliked about the Mass Effect series. She's the typical alien damsel in distress. And Shepard has to go all Captain Kirk as save her ass from a big bad krogan.... *facepalm*

I'm sorry, but if I didn't 'need' her to help figure out the visions. I would never have recruited her. That being said, it was nice of her to take my body to Cerberus were I was forced to act as the Illusive Man's right hand. Thanks Liara, just thanks. 'Couldn't let me go?' So what are you going to do when Shepard dies from natural causes? Clone him and stick his brain into a new body?

I don't even romance the Asari because She comes off as a typically helpless mary sue to me. Kaidan and Ashley are very well thought out characters that actually allow me to invest emotionally in the game and made me feel sorry for the one I had to leave behind on Virmire. Hell, I cried a bit. I still do. Liara on the other hand, I feel isn't worth the time, attention and hype she's getting.


... sorry. Needed to get that off my chest.

Oookay. No crazy bias there...

[CptData]

FoxHound109 wrote...

I'm not exactly blaming Ashley for that fiasco, I'm simply pointing out the actual facts: nobody else got proper character development. My general point is that it's hard to hate Liara when she's one of the few characters that Bioware actually developed. She's the most "complete" of all the crew members thus far.

I do often feel like Bioware is really unfair to the V.S. though...

=|

Hmm, I'd say Liara got a bit too much love with that sudden change from archeologist to intel broker. But that's not her fault - it's more lack of writing / bad writing.
Maybe, and that's what I stated before, BW wanted too much from little Liara. She got enough development to make two decent characters out of her - ME1!Liara and ME2!Liara.

Whatever.

The VS got some decent char development in ME too. I'd say they were intented to be characters the player should care most, or the decision on Virmire wouldn't be between Ashley and Kaidan. If we ignore ME2, Kaidan, Ashley and Liara are playing pretty much in the same league when it comes to character development.

I dunno why BW changed their policy in ME2 - Liara gets her own DLC and although she's not part of your new crew, she still plays a significant role in the story. The VS has just one tiny cameo - not more. Why that? Why no DLC / why no own story arc? That's what I don't get. And that's why I get a similar feeling like you:

FoxHound109 wrote...

I do often feel like Bioware is really unfair to the V.S. though...

However, that shall not make me disliking Liara or hating the VS. Too bad BW won't change things in ME2 by releasing a VS!DLC and whatever is going to happen in ME3, if BW continues treating the VS like they did in ME2, it won't be pleasant for a large portion of fandom at all.

Modifié par CptData, 13 novembre 2011 - 09:28 .

[D.Kain]

Common people! This is a story by Bioware. They are telling a story, and in that story there are cooler characters and there are lesser characters. Romance options do not all have the same respect from Bioware, because they feel that some options are better than others.
Shepard is also not completely your character. Shepard is a 50% pre-set and has a lot of emotional auto-responses and thoughts throughout series.
This is not a full RPG, you do not play a character from scratch, you play a set character and just make some choices. And other characters are also treated how the writers saw fit, they are not equal.

[Yuqi]

Liara/ Anders are subtly implied to be the cannon LI.  Although more Liara then Anders in some ways IMO.

Modifié par Yuqi, 14 novembre 2011 - 01:10 .

[D.Kain]

Yuqi wrote...

Liara/ Anders are subtly implied to be the cannon LI.  Although more Liara then Anders in some ways IMO.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about, Bioware games have cannons. 

[Yuqi]

D.Kain wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

Liara/ Anders are subtly implied to be the cannon LI.  Although more Liara then Anders in some ways IMO.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about, Bioware games have cannons. 

I suppose it makes sense to have an underlying cannon, to work from.

[Fdingo]

It's caNon, people.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah cannon is the thing you use to shoot cannon balls out of.

[Dariustwinblade]

Why would Anders be hinted to be the canon romance.

Canon Hawke is a male. So no he is not gay. Isabela is the canon LI as shown by the destiny trailer.

[Ryzaki]

...to be frank *no one* is canon LI in DA2. Yeah Hawke kisses her in a promo shot but Shep also takes the casual sex option with Jack in a promo.

There is no canon LI.