83 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

AlexXIV wrote...

And what are the templars going to do against Elthina? Arrest her? All she needed was some civil courage which she didn't have. I don't care for divine right either. It's just a comfortable excuse to make an easy decision. Did the Maker tell her? Did he talk to her? I doubt it. There is nothing divine about divine rights, only people with power taking it as excuse for whatever they want to do.

She was actively preventing the situation from getting resolved. She was the one who acted as if everything was alright while it wasn't. She needed help but didn't admit it. What Anders did and why is one thing. But it doesn't sanctify what Elthina did or didn't do. Just because someone kills you to start war doesn't mean that you are a saint. In the eyes of some maybe, but people believe what they want to believe. I am sure if he thought that she is such a great person, then he would have had doubts about it. I don't think Anders opinion of the Grand Cleric was really high.

Well, yes.  Why wouldn't they arrest her?  Or rather, they would simply ignore her and carry out the rite of annulment.

Apparently you're idea of resolution is synonymous with bloodbathe.  I used to think she should have done more too, but then I considered exactly how much of her authority depends on Meredith being willing to obey.

[Gervaise]

Anders opinion of the Grand Cleric wasn't very high, he called her a "doddering old biddy". However, it wouldn't matter what he thought of her. He made that quite clear to Hawke. There was no one he wouldn't kill in order to further his cause. The writers don't allow you to challenge him before the bomb but had Hawke done so, he would have had no hesitation in killing them (or trying to). No one's life mattered, not Orsino, not Bethany, not Hawke, not the Circle Mages - he was willing to sacrifice them all in order to pursue his course to the end.

[Realmzmaster]

Lets make a comparison to DOA. To whom did Loghain's forces listen. By all rights they were subject to the King as was Loghain. They knew that their task was to attack when the signal was lit. That was the standing order from the King. Loghain told them to retreat and quit the field. The armyt did what it was told by Loghain. Elthina sits in the same situation. The templars are not loyal to Elthina. They are loyal to Meredith.

Meredith holds power and so does Orsino. Both have armies they can call on. Elthina for all her authority does not. She is trying to prevent a bloodbath among the citizenry like what happen with the Arishok. She wants to prevent a war and all the collateral damage that comes with it. The guards will have their hands full just protecting the innocent citizens from both sides.

[dragonflight288]

Lets make a comparison to DOA. To whom did Loghain's forces listen. By all rights they were subject to the King as was Loghain. They knew that their task was to attack when the signal was lit. That was the standing order from the King. Loghain told them to retreat and quit the field. The armyt did what it was told by Loghain. Elthina sits in the same situation. The templars are not loyal to Elthina. They are loyal to Meredith.

Meredith holds power and so does Orsino. Both have armies they can call on. Elthina for all her authority does not. She is trying to prevent a bloodbath among the citizenry like what happen with the Arishok. She wants to prevent a war and all the collateral damage that comes with it. The guards will have their hands full just protecting the innocent citizens from both sides.

Also using the soldiers listening to Loghain over Cailan in Origins, if you talk to Alistar before meeting up with Duncan and heading out into the wilds, Alistair says we should be listening to Loghain.

And after reading Meredith's codex entry-she usurped the tyrant before Dumar, and is held in high esteem by the people. Many believe she has the moral high-ground when it comes to mages and politics. She is seen as a hero by Kirkwall. She was made Knight-Commander after Dumar took the throne.

By Act 3, Meredith is the acting Viscount, Knight-Commander, and her templars are actively trying to get Aveline fired so they could consolidate power by taking over the City Guards. Aveline doesn't think her guardsmen wouldn't help the templars so she has them help the citizens.

Meredith is the most powerful person in Kirkwall, and Hawke in second with both skill and the ability to influence others in the city, Orsino is third (in my opinion) with his power over the mages, and Elthina is fourth, despite her authority as Grand Cleric. She has to look after all the people of Kirkwall, and so long as Orsino and Meredith listen to her, she is keeping things from blowing up.

If she took sides for one moment, the other would no longer listen to her and it would be a bloodbath. Meredith has far too much political power to reign her in.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 14 novembre 2011 - 11:26 .

[Sisterofshane]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Lets make a comparison to DOA. To whom did Loghain's forces listen. By all rights they were subject to the King as was Loghain. They knew that their task was to attack when the signal was lit. That was the standing order from the King. Loghain told them to retreat and quit the field. The armyt did what it was told by Loghain. Elthina sits in the same situation. The templars are not loyal to Elthina. They are loyal to Meredith.

Meredith holds power and so does Orsino. Both have armies they can call on. Elthina for all her authority does not. She is trying to prevent a bloodbath among the citizenry like what happen with the Arishok. She wants to prevent a war and all the collateral damage that comes with it. The guards will have their hands full just protecting the innocent citizens from both sides.

Also using the soldiers listening to Loghain over Cailan in Origins, if you talk to Alistar before meeting up with Duncan and heading out into the wilds, Alistair says we should be listening to Loghain.

And after reading Meredith's codex entry-she usurped the tyrant before Dumar, and is held in high esteem by the people. Many believe she has the moral high-ground when it comes to mages and politics. She is seen as a hero by Kirkwall. She was made Knight-Commander after Dumar took the throne.

By Act 3, Meredith is the acting Viscount, Knight-Commander, and her templars are actively trying to get Aveline fired so they could consolidate power by taking over the City Guards. Aveline doesn't think her guardsmen wouldn't help the templars so she has them help the citizens.

Meredith is the most powerful person in Kirkwall, and Hawke in second with both skill and the ability to influence others in the city, Orsino is third (in my opinion) with his power over the mages, and Elthina is fourth, despite her authority as Grand Cleric. She has to look after all the people of Kirkwall, and so long as Orsino and Meredith listen to her, she is keeping things from blowing up.

If she took sides for one moment, the other would no longer listen to her and it would be a bloodbath. Meredith has far too much political power to reign her in.

I was always under the impression that Meredith was not so well supported by her own Templars, especially as you head into act 3 (save for the few loonies like Ser Karras and the like).  While Elthina would definitely not inspire loyalty amongst the Templars of Kirkwall over Meredith, she would have the right and the authority to ask the Divine to intervene by sending a different Knight-Commander.

I always feel bad for Cullen in the end because he has to be the one to tell Meredith to step down, and by then she is so far gone (driven mad by the idol) that she just attacks every one.  Would Meredith ever have gone so far if the Divine had told her to relenquish command to someone else?  It seems a stretch to me that everyone still considered Meredith as behaving reasonably, especially after there was so much resistance within her own ranks.

[Realmzmaster]

Elthina could called for a different Knight-Commander, but on what grounds. The Divine already thinks that Kirkwall is a hotbed of resistance and apostate activity. This is why Sister Nightingale is in Kirkwall. So the Divine would probably see Meredith as the one to handle the situation until the Divine mobilizes a march against Kirkwall.

[maxernst]

Much depends on how loyal to Meredith the Templars really are. Elthina has legal authority, but (to paraphrase Mao) power comes at the point of a sword, and Meredith has the swords, or so it seems. Will they actually follow her if she openly defies the Grand Cleric? We don't know.

Of course, as in many things in Kirkwall, Hawke makes things worse by killing off some of the Templars who would certainly have supported a change of Knight Commander in Best Served Cold.

What grounds would she have for replacing Meredith? Hawke could provide her with:
1) Elthina's signature was being forged on documents
2) Evidence of Harrowed mages being made Tranquil
3) Accounts of sexual abuse
All of which seem to be evidence that Meredith is--at best--doing a lousy job of keeping her Templars in line. And the fact that Kirkwall is a hotbed of resistance and apostate activity could also be viewed as evidence that Meredith's not a good Knight Commander.

[Sisterofshane]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Elthina could called for a different Knight-Commander, but on what grounds. The Divine already thinks that Kirkwall is a hotbed of resistance and apostate activity. This is why Sister Nightingale is in Kirkwall. So the Divine would probably see Meredith as the one to handle the situation until the Divine mobilizes a march against Kirkwall.

I would see it as a sign that Meredith was incompetant, rather.  Perhaps the Divine is considering holding back her best until she can march on Kirkwall, and thinks that sending anyone there would be a waste of time.  But how long would you wait and let things in Kirkwall fester before you acted, especially when Meredith starts trying to go above the Grand Cleric's head to invoke the Rite of Annulment?  As the Divine I would have seen the situation spiraling out of control, and I would have handled it before it got out of hand. 

The only reason I can deduce as to why the Armies of the Divine didn't descend upon Kirkwall was because of Elthina.  She may have downplayed the situation to the Divine, whilst trying to appease Orsino/Meredith in hopes that she could just avoid any conflict.  Which again, put the ball in Elthina's court.  The more I play it, the more I truly believe that she alone could have stopped everything that went on (short of healing the veil so that there were less possessions) but as she grew older she just grew more complacent, certain that her words alone would quelch any fire that was lit from the hands of either side.

[Nightwriter]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Lets make a comparison to DOA. To whom did Loghain's forces listen. By all rights they were subject to the King as was Loghain. They knew that their task was to attack when the signal was lit. That was the standing order from the King. Loghain told them to retreat and quit the field. The armyt did what it was told by Loghain. Elthina sits in the same situation. The templars are not loyal to Elthina. They are loyal to Meredith.

Meredith holds power and so does Orsino. Both have armies they can call on. Elthina for all her authority does not. She is trying to prevent a bloodbath among the citizenry like what happen with the Arishok. She wants to prevent a war and all the collateral damage that comes with it. The guards will have their hands full just protecting the innocent citizens from both sides.

The Grand Cleric is meant to have more oversight over the templars than a king has over every regiment of his army in the chaos of battle. It is against Chantry law to perform the Rite of Tranquility on mages who have already passed their Harrowing. Elthina needs only to look around and see the wealth of new Tranquil mages to know that it couldn't possibly be true that all of them were unharrowed. It seems logical therefore that she should know that Chantry laws are being broken.

Your counterargument seems to be that Elthina was still disinclined to act because Meredith was just too well ensconced in Kirkwall, her templars were too loyal. I can see the merit of this argument, but I suppose my response would be that Elthina proves she can easily rein in Meredith in Act 3's opening scene, and also, over halfway through the game Meredith's templars begin to waver in their loyalty to her.

[Ferretinabun]

My WTF moment with Elthina came when she apparently allowed Mother Petrice to get shot in the head by the Quinari. I mean, yes Petrice totally had it coming, but Elthina rides around on her high horse not wanting to get involved in political intrigues and yet apparently sanctions the assassination of a woman in her direct charge. A little consistancy would be nice. Or is her distinct lack of reaction to Petrice's death the result of Elthina being quite accustomed to people dropping dead wherever Hawke goes...?

[maxernst]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Or is her distinct lack of reaction to Petrice's death the result of Elthina being quite accustomed to people dropping dead wherever Hawke goes...?

Well, she does live in Kirkwall, after all.  It seems murderous blood mages, thieves and slavers rampage through the streets all the time there.

[Sir JK]

May I just remind everyone that Meredith's superior isn't Elthina but the Knight-Vigilant in Orlais is. The chain of command goes: "Divine" (civilian oversight) - Knight Vigilant (highest ranking templar, commander in chief) - Knight Commander.
Meredith has to seek her legal authority from Elthina as she is the appointed overseer of the local chantry, but she is no more Elthina's direct subordinate than Cullen is. Elthina can only grant or withhold the sanction of the mother Chantry. Not directly interfere with the templar chain of command. That is outside her jurisdiction.
Only the Knight-Vigilant (and thus, also the Divine) could have Meredith removed from office legally. Since he is her superior.

Elthina can order the templars of Kirkwall into action or she can withhold her permission for certain things. But how the templars do it is entirely in Meredith's hands. That's the extent of Elthina's power. She can not dismiss any templars. She can not have any of them arrested (save through normal legal means).

That's not to say the average templar don't have a lot of respect for her. They do. That's why the two young men escorts Orsino as she requested despite Meredith's wishes to the contrary (and did those two pay for it afterward, probably very much so).
But that respect only exists as long as the templars believe Elthina being, if not on their side, at least on the side of peace. The moment Elthina supports mages (without good reason, read proof) that's the moment she loses all support she has in the templars.

And another thing:
There isn't any proof.
There isn't any proof whatsoever of templar transgressions. Yes, we know it happens. Yes, so does Thrask. Yes, so does Meredith. Yes, so does the resolutionist. And yes, probably Elthina too. But what you know and what you can prove are entirely different.
Alrik hid his tracks real well. Even Anders had difficulty finding out about it, as he tells you. And he specifically looks for it. Even Thrask, who has the advantage of being a templar, can not find any other means to remove Meredith short of an illegal coup (and no matter what, that coup would have ended with Meredith and her supporters death. Make no mistake).

Basically: There is no legal justification for Meredith's removal from office. Which means that unless you demand Elthina to hire assassins, there's nothing she can do.

[Sisterofshane]

Sir JK wrote...

May I just remind everyone that Meredith's superior isn't Elthina but the Knight-Vigilant in Orlais is. The chain of command goes: "Divine" (civilian oversight) - Knight Vigilant (highest ranking templar, commander in chief) - Knight Commander.
Meredith has to seek her legal authority from Elthina as she is the appointed overseer of the local chantry, but she is no more Elthina's direct subordinate than Cullen is. Elthina can only grant or withhold the sanction of the mother Chantry. Not directly interfere with the templar chain of command. That is outside her jurisdiction.
Only the Knight-Vigilant (and thus, also the Divine) could have Meredith removed from office legally. Since he is her superior.

Elthina can order the templars of Kirkwall into action or she can withhold her permission for certain things. But how the templars do it is entirely in Meredith's hands. That's the extent of Elthina's power. She can not dismiss any templars. She can not have any of them arrested (save through normal legal means).

That's not to say the average templar don't have a lot of respect for her. They do. That's why the two young men escorts Orsino as she requested despite Meredith's wishes to the contrary (and did those two pay for it afterward, probably very much so).
But that respect only exists as long as the templars believe Elthina being, if not on their side, at least on the side of peace. The moment Elthina supports mages (without good reason, read proof) that's the moment she loses all support she has in the templars.

And another thing:
There isn't any proof.
There isn't any proof whatsoever of templar transgressions. Yes, we know it happens. Yes, so does Thrask. Yes, so does Meredith. Yes, so does the resolutionist. And yes, probably Elthina too. But what you know and what you can prove are entirely different.
Alrik hid his tracks real well. Even Anders had difficulty finding out about it, as he tells you. And he specifically looks for it. Even Thrask, who has the advantage of being a templar, can not find any other means to remove Meredith short of an illegal coup (and no matter what, that coup would have ended with Meredith and her supporters death. Make no mistake).

Basically: There is no legal justification for Meredith's removal from office. Which means that unless you demand Elthina to hire assassins, there's nothing she can do.

Okay, since when do legalities pertain to the Chantry?  They may act like a military, and answer to a chain of command, but Elthina is often referred to as a hand of the Divine.  That might not put her above the Knight-Vigilant, but certainly at the same level.  She is obviously respected by the Divine well enough that she sent her best agent (ahem, Sister Nightingale) to basically tell her to leave Kirkwall because there was no hope of it being saved.  This tells me two things; The first being that the Divine is fully aware of how bad the situation is in Kirkwall by the third act, and the second that she views Elthina as being very important, possibly important enough that were she to suggest something, such as replacing the Knight-Commander, the Divine would probably see to it.

The Templars in Kirkwall were out of control - they were poorly managed by Meredith, who seemed to see Demons and Abominations everywhere, but for some reason relied upon Hawke to actually take care of.  They are all too afraid to speak out against abuses within the order (surely the Grand Cleric would have listened), or they are simply too driven by their own personal goals (I think of Karras and Alrik, but also of the one lieutenant you see who personally conspires to murder Hawke if they kill Karras).  The were open to that sort of abuse because they held political power in Kirkwall for a very long time.

I'm not trying to say that the mages had no faults.  It almost seemed like they were practicing blood magic on every corner - Tevinter Slavers operated (nearly) freely within City limits, and we all come to find out that Orsino is practically a blood magic apologist - he won't even turn over those that ARE practicing forbidden/extremely dangerous magic.

But, the point I was trying to make was, despite issues with chain of command, when it came down to it, those with the ability to STOP the downward spiral never did, either out of fear or complacency.  By the time act 3 starts, it's basically too late, and all Hawke can do is play damage-control.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Hey, just thought of something... Sister Nightingale all but ordered Elthina to leave, and she didn't... while it wasn't a direct order, it was as close as you can get. Seeing as how Sister Nightingale speaks for The Divine, who is Elthina to disobey Sister Nightingale?

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Much depends on how loyal to Meredith the Templars really are. Elthina has legal authority, but (to paraphrase Mao) power comes at the point of a sword, and Meredith has the swords, or so it seems. Will they actually follow her if she openly defies the Grand Cleric? We don't know.

Of course, as in many things in Kirkwall, Hawke makes things worse by killing off some of the Templars who would certainly have supported a change of Knight Commander in Best Served Cold.

What grounds would she have for replacing Meredith? Hawke could provide her with:
1) Elthina's signature was being forged on documents
2) Evidence of Harrowed mages being made Tranquil
3) Accounts of sexual abuse
All of which seem to be evidence that Meredith is--at best--doing a lousy job of keeping her Templars in line. And the fact that Kirkwall is a hotbed of resistance and apostate activity could also be viewed as evidence that Meredith's not a good Knight Commander.

The signature being forged was by a regenade templar who for a time was working at the behest of Sister Petrice (later Mother). So the Grand Cleric would be as cupable in that regard..
Meredith and Elthina both  rejected Ser Alrik's request to use the Rite of Tranquality on all the mages which is why he was doing it in sercet with several templars helping him. Also who was going to make the accusation? The mages are tranquil. Also the mages who were sexually abused did not come forward. The first Enchanter is suppose to be an advocate for the mages. It would be on him to inform Elthina of those transgressions and provide proof.

So no real evidence just speculation without some one stepping forward to point the finger.  So on the surface Meredith is doing a good job controlling the mages. Her heavy handness also serves a purpose the more mages get out of hand the more reason she has to clamp down until eventually she gets what she wants.

[heiveldboy]

Sir JK wrote...

May I just remind everyone that Meredith's superior isn't Elthina but the Knight-Vigilant in Orlais is. The chain of command goes: "Divine" (civilian oversight) - Knight Vigilant (highest ranking templar, commander in chief) - Knight Commander.
Meredith has to seek her legal authority from Elthina as she is the appointed overseer of the local chantry, but she is no more Elthina's direct subordinate than Cullen is. Elthina can only grant or withhold the sanction of the mother Chantry. Not directly interfere with the templar chain of command. That is outside her jurisdiction.
Only the Knight-Vigilant (and thus, also the Divine) could have Meredith removed from office legally. Since he is her superior.

Elthina can order the templars of Kirkwall into action or she can withhold her permission for certain things. But how the templars do it is entirely in Meredith's hands. That's the extent of Elthina's power. She can not dismiss any templars. She can not have any of them arrested (save through normal legal means).

That's not to say the average templar don't have a lot of respect for her. They do. That's why the two young men escorts Orsino as she requested despite Meredith's wishes to the contrary (and did those two pay for it afterward, probably very much so).
But that respect only exists as long as the templars believe Elthina being, if not on their side, at least on the side of peace. The moment Elthina supports mages (without good reason, read proof) that's the moment she loses all support she has in the templars.

And another thing:
There isn't any proof.
There isn't any proof whatsoever of templar transgressions. Yes, we know it happens. Yes, so does Thrask. Yes, so does Meredith. Yes, so does the resolutionist. And yes, probably Elthina too. But what you know and what you can prove are entirely different.
Alrik hid his tracks real well. Even Anders had difficulty finding out about it, as he tells you. And he specifically looks for it. Even Thrask, who has the advantage of being a templar, can not find any other means to remove Meredith short of an illegal coup (and no matter what, that coup would have ended with Meredith and her supporters death. Make no mistake).

Basically: There is no legal justification for Meredith's removal from office. Which means that unless you demand Elthina to hire assassins, there's nothing she can do.

Well actually... you're wrong. I have been reading the grand cleric article on Dragon age wikia and I do have to say I found a rather interesting piece of news:

"The Chantry has a presence in each Andrastian country. Each country's Chantry is overseen by a Grand Cleric, except in Orlais, where the Divine resides. As with most positions in the Chantry, the Grand Cleric is always female. A Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine, who is at the very top of the Chantry's hierarchy"
http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric

This means that Elthina DID have all the power and control over the templars, they should answer to her, and not to Meredith.(well they should answer to Meredith, but She has to answer to Elthina (which she did, to an extent)) This means that Meredith HAD to listen to her, which is also the only reason she did (you can't tell me that she, who was paranoid as heck in act 3, would listen to the Grand Cleric if she didn't have to). This is also the main reason why Orsino always wanted to involve Elthina, like he did in the final mission of act 3, and why Meredith didn't want that: she knew that Elthina would resolve things peacefully and that she, Meredith, wouldn't get her way.

Then why did the Templars only listen to Meredith and only some merely respected Elthina's wishes(I don't think people like Alrik would listen to her, because he wasn't even afraid of the thought of being disciplined by the Divine)? Because, and this has been mentioned before, she had the swords, the political power and was regarded as a hero against magic (die, die, evil magic, die die). She was so devoted to her work, managed to keep the mage-infested Kirkwall relatively safe (still a lot of blood mages who kill people though, and most of them turn to blood magic BECAUSE of her (oh irony)) that the people liked her. Why did Dumar listen to her? First of all she had the strongest army, like many have said before, and secondly she did have a lot of people supporting her, which made her powerful. And this is merely hypothetical, but I also think he was just tired of all the crap that went on in Kirkwall (the mages, before that the Qunari, and who knows what went before that...)

But the fact that Meredith holds so much power should raise suspicion: How could a mere Knight-Commander have all the power in a city as Kirkwall? Wouldn't she have to listen to the Crand Cleric? Why didn't they interfere? Because they probably thought the following: The Templars, which Meredith belongs to, have to listen to the Grand Cleric. So they have to listen to Elthina and this is probably her idea and work (note this is merely a thought and can be wrong)

Another reason they didn't do anything is because Meredith was reasonable in act 1 and 2: she was against the 'Tranquil Solution' of Alrik. She ALLOWED mages to still live, but the place was still worse than other places in Thedas (probably because the Templars were in control). In act 2 she gets the idol, which can already be seen during the Qunari invasion, where She and Orsino really were at each other throats (similar like Irving and Gregoir, except that those two had respect for one another) and where Hawke had to settle things (the fact that she was willing to listen to Hawke's request of listening to the mages shows that she was reasonable). However after 3 years she becomes so paranoid and harsh to the mages that questions are being asked by both the Divine and her Templars. But they didn't do anything (except sending sister Nightingale) to change the situation and even then only blamed the mages, because the mages were still considered the bad guys and because the illusion of Meredith still listening to Elthina still existed. The moment Meredith would defile Elthina, the moment she would stop listening to the old grand cleric, would be the time to do something and to replace her, which Elthina had every power and right to.

Why didn't she do it? Why didn't she stop her? Because she still believed Meredith did the work of the Maker and because she still believed that Meredith was loyal to her (though she started to question this, she still believed Meredith would listen to her). If Anders had waited a bit, just long enough for Meredith become even more paranoid and start seeing Elthina as a blood mage thrall or something, THAN she would have taken action and he would have never taken action (well not really true, because at the time he was just as paranoid and crazy as Meredith).

So, to sum it up: Elthina held all the control, Meredith usurped it, but still listened (or gave the illusion) to Elthina. Elthina knew or thought this and did nothing at the time. Had Meredith difiled her, than she would have taken action. -> Main reason why she greatly angered me 

[heiveldboy]

heiveldboy wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

May I just remind everyone that Meredith's superior isn't Elthina but the Knight-Vigilant in Orlais is. The chain of command goes: "Divine" (civilian oversight) - Knight Vigilant (highest ranking templar, commander in chief) - Knight Commander.
Meredith has to seek her legal authority from Elthina as she is the appointed overseer of the local chantry, but she is no more Elthina's direct subordinate than Cullen is. Elthina can only grant or withhold the sanction of the mother Chantry. Not directly interfere with the templar chain of command. That is outside her jurisdiction.
Only the Knight-Vigilant (and thus, also the Divine) could have Meredith removed from office legally. Since he is her superior.

Elthina can order the templars of Kirkwall into action or she can withhold her permission for certain things. But how the templars do it is entirely in Meredith's hands. That's the extent of Elthina's power. She can not dismiss any templars. She can not have any of them arrested (save through normal legal means).

That's not to say the average templar don't have a lot of respect for her. They do. That's why the two young men escorts Orsino as she requested despite Meredith's wishes to the contrary (and did those two pay for it afterward, probably very much so).
But that respect only exists as long as the templars believe Elthina being, if not on their side, at least on the side of peace. The moment Elthina supports mages (without good reason, read proof) that's the moment she loses all support she has in the templars.

And another thing:
There isn't any proof.
There isn't any proof whatsoever of templar transgressions. Yes, we know it happens. Yes, so does Thrask. Yes, so does Meredith. Yes, so does the resolutionist. And yes, probably Elthina too. But what you know and what you can prove are entirely different.
Alrik hid his tracks real well. Even Anders had difficulty finding out about it, as he tells you. And he specifically looks for it. Even Thrask, who has the advantage of being a templar, can not find any other means to remove Meredith short of an illegal coup (and no matter what, that coup would have ended with Meredith and her supporters death. Make no mistake).

Basically: There is no legal justification for Meredith's removal from office. Which means that unless you demand Elthina to hire assassins, there's nothing she can do.

Well actually... you're wrong. I have been reading the grand cleric article on Dragon age wikia and I do have to say I found a rather interesting piece of news:

"The Chantry has a presence in each Andrastian country. Each country's Chantry is overseen by a Grand Cleric, except in Orlais, where the Divine resides. As with most positions in the Chantry, the Grand Cleric is always female. A Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine, who is at the very top of the Chantry's hierarchy"
http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric

This means that Elthina DID have all the power and control over the templars, they should answer to her, and not to Meredith.(well they should answer to Meredith, but She has to answer to Elthina (which she did, to an extent)) This means that Meredith HAD to listen to her, which is also the only reason she did (you can't tell me that she, who was paranoid as heck in act 3, would listen to the Grand Cleric if she didn't have to). This is also the main reason why Orsino always wanted to involve Elthina, like he did in the final mission of act 3, and why Meredith didn't want that: she knew that Elthina would resolve things peacefully and that she, Meredith, wouldn't get her way.

Then why did the Templars only listen to Meredith and only some merely respected Elthina's wishes(I don't think people like Alrik would listen to her, because he caried out his plan even thought the Divine had refused it)? Because, and this has been mentioned before, she had the swords, the political power and was regarded as a hero against magic (die, die, evil magic, die die). She was so devoted to her work, managed to keep the mage-infested Kirkwall relatively safe (still a lot of blood mages who kill people though, and most of them turn to blood magic BECAUSE of her (oh irony)) that the people liked her. Why did Dumar listen to her? First of all she had the strongest army, like many have said before, and secondly she did have a lot of people supporting her, which made her powerful. And this is merely hypothetical, but I also think he was just tired of all the crap that went on in Kirkwall (the mages, before that the Qunari, and who knows what went before that...)

But the fact that Meredith holds so much power should raise suspicion: How could a mere Knight-Commander have all the power in a city as Kirkwall? Wouldn't she have to listen to the Crand Cleric? Why didn't they interfere? Because they probably thought the following: The Templars, which Meredith belongs to, have to listen to the Grand Cleric. So they have to listen to Elthina and this is probably her idea and work (note this is merely a thought and can be wrong)

Another reason they didn't do anything is because Meredith was reasonable in act 1 and 2: she was against the 'Tranquil Solution' of Alrik. She ALLOWED mages to still live, but the place was still worse than other places in Thedas (probably because the Templars were in control). In act 2 she gets the idol, which can already be seen during the Qunari invasion, where She and Orsino really were at each other throats (similar like Irving and Gregoir, except that those two had respect for one another) and where Hawke had to settle things (the fact that she was willing to listen to Hawke's request of listening to the mages shows that she was reasonable). However after 3 years she becomes so paranoid and harsh to the mages that questions are being asked by both the Divine and her Templars. But they didn't do anything (except sending sister Nightingale) to change the situation and even then only blamed the mages, because the mages were still considered the bad guys and because the illusion of Meredith still listening to Elthina still existed. The moment Meredith would defile Elthina, the moment she would stop listening to the old grand cleric, would be the time to do something and to replace her, which Elthina had every power and right to.

Why didn't she do it? Why didn't she stop her? Because she still believed Meredith did the work of the Maker and because she still believed that Meredith was loyal to her (though she started to question this, she still believed Meredith would listen to her). If Anders had waited a bit, just long enough for Meredith become even more paranoid and start seeing Elthina as a blood mage thrall or something, THAN she would have taken action and he would have never taken action (well not really true, because at the time he was just as paranoid and crazy as Meredith).

So, to sum it up: Elthina held all the control, Meredith usurped it, but still listened (or gave the illusion) to Elthina. Elthina knew or thought this and did nothing at the time. Had Meredith difiled her, than she would have taken action. -> Main reason why she greatly angered me 

[heiveldboy]

heiveldboy wrote...

heiveldboy wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

May I just remind everyone that Meredith's superior isn't Elthina but the Knight-Vigilant in Orlais is. The chain of command goes: "Divine" (civilian oversight) - Knight Vigilant (highest ranking templar, commander in chief) - Knight Commander.
Meredith has to seek her legal authority from Elthina as she is the appointed overseer of the local chantry, but she is no more Elthina's direct subordinate than Cullen is. Elthina can only grant or withhold the sanction of the mother Chantry. Not directly interfere with the templar chain of command. That is outside her jurisdiction.
Only the Knight-Vigilant (and thus, also the Divine) could have Meredith removed from office legally. Since he is her superior.

Elthina can order the templars of Kirkwall into action or she can withhold her permission for certain things. But how the templars do it is entirely in Meredith's hands. That's the extent of Elthina's power. She can not dismiss any templars. She can not have any of them arrested (save through normal legal means).

That's not to say the average templar don't have a lot of respect for her. They do. That's why the two young men escorts Orsino as she requested despite Meredith's wishes to the contrary (and did those two pay for it afterward, probably very much so).
But that respect only exists as long as the templars believe Elthina being, if not on their side, at least on the side of peace. The moment Elthina supports mages (without good reason, read proof) that's the moment she loses all support she has in the templars.

And another thing:
There isn't any proof.
There isn't any proof whatsoever of templar transgressions. Yes, we know it happens. Yes, so does Thrask. Yes, so does Meredith. Yes, so does the resolutionist. And yes, probably Elthina too. But what you know and what you can prove are entirely different.
Alrik hid his tracks real well. Even Anders had difficulty finding out about it, as he tells you. And he specifically looks for it. Even Thrask, who has the advantage of being a templar, can not find any other means to remove Meredith short of an illegal coup (and no matter what, that coup would have ended with Meredith and her supporters death. Make no mistake).

Basically: There is no legal justification for Meredith's removal from office. Which means that unless you demand Elthina to hire assassins, there's nothing she can do.

Well actually... you're wrong. I have been reading the grand cleric article on Dragon age wikia and I do have to say I found a rather interesting piece of news:

"The Chantry has a presence in each Andrastian country. Each country's Chantry is overseen by a Grand Cleric, except in Orlais, where the Divine resides. As with most positions in the Chantry, the Grand Cleric is always female. A Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine, who is at the very top of the Chantry's hierarchy"
http://dragonage.wik...ki/Grand_Cleric

This means that Elthina DID have all the power and control over the templars, they should answer to her, and not to Meredith.(well they should answer to Meredith, but She has to answer to Elthina (which she did, to an extent)) This means that Meredith HAD to listen to her, which is also the only reason she did (you can't tell me that she, who was paranoid as heck in act 3, would listen to the Grand Cleric if she didn't have to). This is also the main reason why Orsino always wanted to involve Elthina, like he did in the final mission of act 3, and why Meredith didn't want that: she knew that Elthina would resolve things peacefully and that she, Meredith, wouldn't get her way.

Then why did the Templars only listen to Meredith and only some merely respected Elthina's wishes(I don't think people like Alrik would listen to her, because he caried out his plan even thought the Divine had refused it)? Because, and this has been mentioned before, she had the swords, the political power and was regarded as a hero against magic (die, die, evil magic, die die). She was so devoted to her work, managed to keep the mage-infested Kirkwall relatively safe (still a lot of blood mages who kill people though, and most of them turn to blood magic BECAUSE of her (oh irony)) that the people liked her. Why did Dumar listen to her? First of all she had the strongest army, like many have said before, and secondly she did have a lot of people supporting her, which made her powerful. And this is merely hypothetical, but I also think he was just tired of all the crap that went on in Kirkwall (the mages, before that the Qunari, and who knows what went before that...)

But the fact that Meredith holds so much power should raise suspicion: How could a mere Knight-Commander have all the power in a city as Kirkwall? Wouldn't she have to listen to the Crand Cleric? Why didn't they interfere? Because they probably thought the following: The Templars, which Meredith belongs to, have to listen to the Grand Cleric. So they have to listen to Elthina and this is probably her idea and work (note this is merely a thought and can be wrong) Not to mention the fact that it was their organistion. The templars were part of the chantry and if they would lower their, and Meredith's, power, they would lower their own power as well

Another reason they didn't do anything is because Meredith was reasonable in act 1 and 2: she was against the 'Tranquil Solution' of Alrik. She ALLOWED mages to still live, but the place was still worse than other places in Thedas (probably because the Templars were in control). In act 2 she gets the idol, which can already be seen during the Qunari invasion, where She and Orsino really were at each other throats (similar like Irving and Gregoir, except that those two had respect for one another) and where Hawke had to settle things (the fact that she was willing to listen to Hawke's request of listening to the mages shows that she was reasonable). However after 3 years she becomes so paranoid and harsh to the mages that questions are being asked by both the Divine and her Templars. But they didn't do anything (except sending sister Nightingale) to change the situation and even then only blamed the mages, because the mages were still considered the bad guys and because the illusion of Meredith still listening to Elthina still existed. The moment Meredith would defile Elthina, the moment she would stop listening to the old grand cleric, would be the time to do something and to replace her, which Elthina had every power and right to.

Why didn't she do it? Why didn't she stop her? Because she still believed Meredith did the work of the Maker and because she still believed that Meredith was loyal to her (though she started to question this, she still believed Meredith would listen to her). If Anders had waited a bit, just long enough for Meredith become even more paranoid and start seeing Elthina as a blood mage thrall or something, THAN she would have taken action and he would have never taken action (well not really true, because at the time he was just as paranoid and crazy as Meredith).

So, to sum it up: Elthina held all the control, Meredith usurped it, but still listened (or gave the illusion) to Elthina. Elthina knew or thought this and did nothing at the time. Had Meredith defiled her, than she would have taken action. -> Main reason why she greatly angered me 

Modifié par heiveldboy, 15 novembre 2011 - 08:29 .

[Realmzmaster]

Nightwriter wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Lets make a comparison to DOA. To whom did Loghain's forces listen. By all rights they were subject to the King as was Loghain. They knew that their task was to attack when the signal was lit. That was the standing order from the King. Loghain told them to retreat and quit the field. The armyt did what it was told by Loghain. Elthina sits in the same situation. The templars are not loyal to Elthina. They are loyal to Meredith.

Meredith holds power and so does Orsino. Both have armies they can call on. Elthina for all her authority does not. She is trying to prevent a bloodbath among the citizenry like what happen with the Arishok. She wants to prevent a war and all the collateral damage that comes with it. The guards will have their hands full just protecting the innocent citizens from both sides.

The Grand Cleric is meant to have more oversight over the templars than a king has over every regiment of his army in the chaos of battle. It is against Chantry law to perform the Rite of Tranquility on mages who have already passed their Harrowing. Elthina needs only to look around and see the wealth of new Tranquil mages to know that it couldn't possibly be true that all of them were unharrowed. It seems logical therefore that she should know that Chantry laws are being broken.

Your counterargument seems to be that Elthina was still disinclined to act because Meredith was just too well ensconced in Kirkwall, her templars were too loyal. I can see the merit of this argument, but I suppose my response would be that Elthina proves she can easily rein in Meredith in Act 3's opening scene, and also, over halfway through the game Meredith's templars begin to waver in their loyalty to her.

Meredith is not stupid. Not defering to the Grand Cleric in front of the public would be seen as an affront against the Chantry and the Maker. Meredith still has respect for Elthina at the beginning of Act 3. . Make no mistake Meredith is the de facto Viscount with added power. Also note that mages must get permission to leave the Circle premises. Meredith forbids Orsino from leaving and places the other mages on lockdown. Anyone trying to leave would be branded an apostate and subject to discipline like when Ser Slrik caught the female mage trying to use the tunnels to see her family. So there are excuses and reasons that can be given for new tranquils appearing right or wrong.

[heiveldboy]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Lets make a comparison to DOA. To whom did Loghain's forces listen. By all rights they were subject to the King as was Loghain. They knew that their task was to attack when the signal was lit. That was the standing order from the King. Loghain told them to retreat and quit the field. The armyt did what it was told by Loghain. Elthina sits in the same situation. The templars are not loyal to Elthina. They are loyal to Meredith.

Meredith holds power and so does Orsino. Both have armies they can call on. Elthina for all her authority does not. She is trying to prevent a bloodbath among the citizenry like what happen with the Arishok. She wants to prevent a war and all the collateral damage that comes with it. The guards will have their hands full just protecting the innocent citizens from both sides.

The Grand Cleric is meant to have more oversight over the templars than a king has over every regiment of his army in the chaos of battle. It is against Chantry law to perform the Rite of Tranquility on mages who have already passed their Harrowing. Elthina needs only to look around and see the wealth of new Tranquil mages to know that it couldn't possibly be true that all of them were unharrowed. It seems logical therefore that she should know that Chantry laws are being broken.

Your counterargument seems to be that Elthina was still disinclined to act because Meredith was just too well ensconced in Kirkwall, her templars were too loyal. I can see the merit of this argument, but I suppose my response would be that Elthina proves she can easily rein in Meredith in Act 3's opening scene, and also, over halfway through the game Meredith's templars begin to waver in their loyalty to her.

Meredith is not stupid. Not defering to the Grand Cleric in front of the public would be seen as an affront against the Chantry and the Maker. Meredith still has respect for Elthina at the beginning of Act 3. . Make no mistake Meredith is the de facto Viscount with added power. Also note that mages must get permission to leave the Circle premises. Meredith forbids Orsino from leaving and places the other mages on lockdown. Anyone trying to leave would be branded an apostate and subject to discipline like when Ser Slrik caught the female mage trying to use the tunnels to see her family. So there are excuses and reasons that can be given for new tranquils appearing right or wrong.

Meredith no stupid, because stupid people don't become the Knight-Commander (although... ). She was paranoid, (almost) to the point of insanity and paranoid people do a lot of stupid and unnecessary things. At the start of act 3 she didn't defile the grand cleric, but we all know Elthina only knows little of really happens to the mages and it was only a matter of time before she would defile her

Modifié par heiveldboy, 15 novembre 2011 - 08:28 .

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

My biggest problem with Elthina is that she’s too reactive. Her own dialogue indicates that she prefers to let people work their own problems out rather than intervening. Further she admits surprise that the Mages and Templars are having so many issues after the Qunari attack. Essentially instead of being proactive even as early as act 1 she lets things go and acts only when she feels that she has to. In acts 1 & 2 you see how ineffective that is with Petrice. So it’s no surprise that by act 3 that Elthina’s laid back approach doesn’t work on Meredith either.

Elthina clearly is a moderating influence, but she’s also clearly ineffective by the time Hawke arrives in Kirkwall.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Much depends on how loyal to Meredith the Templars really are. Elthina has legal authority, but (to paraphrase Mao) power comes at the point of a sword, and Meredith has the swords, or so it seems. Will they actually follow her if she openly defies the Grand Cleric? We don't know.

Of course, as in many things in Kirkwall, Hawke makes things worse by killing off some of the Templars who would certainly have supported a change of Knight Commander in Best Served Cold.

What grounds would she have for replacing Meredith? Hawke could provide her with:
1) Elthina's signature was being forged on documents
2) Evidence of Harrowed mages being made Tranquil
3) Accounts of sexual abuse
All of which seem to be evidence that Meredith is--at best--doing a lousy job of keeping her Templars in line. And the fact that Kirkwall is a hotbed of resistance and apostate activity could also be viewed as evidence that Meredith's not a good Knight Commander.

The signature being forged was by a regenade templar who for a time was working at the behest of Sister Petrice (later Mother). So the Grand Cleric would be as cupable in that regard..
Meredith and Elthina both  rejected Ser Alrik's request to use the Rite of Tranquality on all the mages which is why he was doing it in sercet with several templars helping him. Also who was going to make the accusation? The mages are tranquil. Also the mages who were sexually abused did not come forward. The first Enchanter is suppose to be an advocate for the mages. It would be on him to inform Elthina of those transgressions and provide proof.

So no real evidence just speculation without some one stepping forward to point the finger.  So on the surface Meredith is doing a good job controlling the mages. Her heavy handness also serves a purpose the more mages get out of hand the more reason she has to clamp down until eventually she gets what she wants.

Umm...since when do witnesses not count as evidence.  You see Ulric threaten Ella, and should be able to tell Elthina so, and Ella herself could confirm.  And even if they don't keep track of which mages have passed the Harrowing (which seems highly implausible), Orsino and Meredith would surely know which mages have gone through the test..Plus, the Tranquil are not brain-wiped.  All that you'd need to do to find out how they became Tranquil is ask them. Plus, whether you consider Elthina culpable for Petrice or not, the fact remains that Templars being involved in conspiracies to draw the city into war is--along with the other abuses--part of a pattern of poor control of the Templars. And don't you think that rumors that Meredith has gone mad should cause the Grand Cleric to want to investigate? Shouldn't Sister Nightingale be having private conversations with mages and Templars in the gallows as part of her investigation anyway?

What makes you say Meredith is doing a good job of controlling the mages?  The Templars job is not only to keep the Circle under control, but also to capture apostates and Kirkwall is overrun with them.  Despite having the biggest army in the city, political control of the city, and possibly the biggest concentration of Templars outside Val Royeaux, Kirkwall has more probems with apostates and blood mages than anywhere else in Thedas.  How is thtat a good job? 

[dragonflight288]

Need I remind people that Elthina is commonly thought by the people of Kirkwall to have the moral high ground and that she's seen as a hero (sort-of) for defeating the tyrant before Dumar? Up until the Qunari attack, there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any wrong doing on Meredith's part. We know of Kerras wanting a blood bath and potentially raping Hawke, we know Alrik is a sadist forcing tranquility on mages in secret because Meredith, Elthina, and the Divine told him 'no.' We know Varnell went rogue under Petrice's orders.

Did Hawke have any proof to give anyone? No. Kerras was doing his duty and I had the impression he's a superior rank to Thrask, which is why Thrask was trying to get things resolved before Kerras got there. We had a letter on Alrik which proves the Tranquil Solution was rejected. And if we have the letter from the lieutenant about Karl, we are never given any reason why Karl was made tranquil. We can speculate on that all we want, but we aren't given any definite reasons.

If Hawke went up to Elthina and said the mages are being abused and the templars are abusing their power, Elthina would say what proof do you have? I cannot act without proof.

Hawke would not be able to provide any. Even Anders who let Hawke know about Alrik, didn't have any proof and wanted to sneak into the gallows to find some. We do see Alrik borderline tell a girl he's going to rape her and make her tranquil, but Anders isn't a reliable, unbiased witness. And we didn't get any proof of his actions beforehand.

So when Elthina (or Leliana in Act 3) asks for proof if Hawke brought it up, all Hawke would be able to say is "errrm...."

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Much depends on how loyal to Meredith the Templars really are. Elthina has legal authority, but (to paraphrase Mao) power comes at the point of a sword, and Meredith has the swords, or so it seems. Will they actually follow her if she openly defies the Grand Cleric? We don't know.

Of course, as in many things in Kirkwall, Hawke makes things worse by killing off some of the Templars who would certainly have supported a change of Knight Commander in Best Served Cold.

What grounds would she have for replacing Meredith? Hawke could provide her with:
1) Elthina's signature was being forged on documents
2) Evidence of Harrowed mages being made Tranquil
3) Accounts of sexual abuse
All of which seem to be evidence that Meredith is--at best--doing a lousy job of keeping her Templars in line. And the fact that Kirkwall is a hotbed of resistance and apostate activity could also be viewed as evidence that Meredith's not a good Knight Commander.

The signature being forged was by a regenade templar who for a time was working at the behest of Sister Petrice (later Mother). So the Grand Cleric would be as cupable in that regard..
Meredith and Elthina both  rejected Ser Alrik's request to use the Rite of Tranquality on all the mages which is why he was doing it in sercet with several templars helping him. Also who was going to make the accusation? The mages are tranquil. Also the mages who were sexually abused did not come forward. The first Enchanter is suppose to be an advocate for the mages. It would be on him to inform Elthina of those transgressions and provide proof.

So no real evidence just speculation without some one stepping forward to point the finger.  So on the surface Meredith is doing a good job controlling the mages. Her heavy handness also serves a purpose the more mages get out of hand the more reason she has to clamp down until eventually she gets what she wants.

Umm...since when do witnesses not count as evidence.  You see Ulric threaten Ella, and should be able to tell Elthina so, and Ella herself could confirm.  And even if they don't keep track of which mages have passed the Harrowing (which seems highly implausible), Orsino and Meredith would surely know which mages have gone through the test..Plus, the Tranquil are not brain-wiped.  All that you'd need to do to find out how they became Tranquil is ask them. Plus, whether you consider Elthina culpable for Petrice or not, the fact remains that Templars being involved in conspiracies to draw the city into war is--along with the other abuses--part of a pattern of poor control of the Templars. And don't you think that rumors that Meredith has gone mad should cause the Grand Cleric to want to investigate? Shouldn't Sister Nightingale be having private conversations with mages and Templars in the gallows as part of her investigation anyway?

What makes you say Meredith is doing a good job of controlling the mages?  The Templars job is not only to keep the Circle under control, but also to capture apostates and Kirkwall is overrun with them.  Despite having the biggest army in the city, political control of the city, and possibly the biggest concentration of Templars outside Val Royeaux, Kirkwall has more probems with apostates and blood mages than anywhere else in Thedas.  How is thtat a good job? 

The assumption is that Ella is alive to make an accusation. If Hawke cannot control Anders/Justice Ella is dead.  The other point is those made tranquil would be seen as violating Chantry rules and deserving of their punishment so no would listen to them. Also given that the general populace fears mages they will probably not shed a tear over it. They see Meredith as a strong leader protecting them from the danger. So removing Meredith would be problematic.

 Elthina primary job is to oversee her flock. Mages and templars constitute only a small portion of that flock. She is  concern with protecting the citizenry. Elthina plays the moderating voice to keep the citizens safe and Meredith in check. 
Meredith still respects Elthina as a friend and superior which is what Elthina uses to keep Meredith in check. Elthina could send for a new Knight-Commander, but who does she place in charge until then. She has to find someone the citizens would accept. If Meredith detects Elthina is getting soft on mages she could petition for the removal of the Grand Cleric.
The Divine would listen because she already thinks Kirkwall is the seat of apostasy and maleficarum activity.

It is Meredith's task to oversee the templars which is why she is Knight-Commander. The templars respect Meredith and without proof Elthina could not remove her.

The citizenry  remember that Meredith played a part in the battle against the Arishok and proclaimed Hawke Champion of Kirkwall in fron of the nobles. Meredith came to the aid of the city and used the templars to defend the city.

Removing Meredith is not an option for Elthina. Anders removes all possibility by killing the Grand Cleric which was his intent. This act pushes Meredith way over the edge because this mage has no only killed the Grand Cleric but a person she saw as a  friend. Given the fact Meredith was going to search the tower anyhow. Anders just handed her what she wanted on a silver plate.

Cullen is able to remove her because all the templars can see she has gone over the edge and will attack even  them.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The assumption is that Ella is alive to make an accusation. If Hawke cannot control Anders/Justice Ella is dead.  The other point is those made tranquil would be seen as violating Chantry rules and deserving of their punishment so no would listen to them. Also given that the general populace fears mages they will probably not shed a tear over it. They see Meredith as a strong leader protecting them from the danger. So removing Meredith would be problematic.

 Elthina primary job is to oversee her flock. Mages and templars constitute only a small portion of that flock. She is  concern with protecting the citizenry. Elthina plays the moderating voice to keep the citizens safe and Meredith in check. 
Meredith still respects Elthina as a friend and superior which is what Elthina uses to keep Meredith in check. Elthina could send for a new Knight-Commander, but who does she place in charge until then. She has to find someone the citizens would accept. If Meredith detects Elthina is getting soft on mages she could petition for the removal of the Grand Cleric.
The Divine would listen because she already thinks Kirkwall is the seat of apostasy and maleficarum activity.

It is Meredith's task to oversee the templars which is why she is Knight-Commander. The templars respect Meredith and without proof Elthina could not remove her.

The citizenry  remember that Meredith played a part in the battle against the Arishok and proclaimed Hawke Champion of Kirkwall in fron of the nobles. Meredith came to the aid of the city and used the templars to defend the city.

Removing Meredith is not an option for Elthina. Anders removes all possibility by killing the Grand Cleric which was his intent. This act pushes Meredith way over the edge because this mage has no only killed the Grand Cleric but a person she saw as a  friend. Given the fact Meredith was going to search the tower anyhow. Anders just handed her what she wanted on a silver plate.

Cullen is able to remove her because all the templars can see she has gone over the edge and will attack even  them.

Virtually everything in this post is unsubstantiated assumptions.

1.  According to Anders, harrowed mages cannot to be made Tranquil as punishment.  He could be wrong, but as far as I know, there is nothing to contradict him in the lore.  And what's your evidence that Meredith has great public support?  Yes, she did participate in the defeat of the Arishok, but Hawke is more commonly credited with the victory, and if Hawke, Aveline and Elthina were engaged in a popularity contest with Meredith, I'm not convinced Meredith wins. 

2.  Why do you assume that the Divine would listen to Meredith in preference to Elthina?  Could she not conclude that since Kirkwall is a hotbed of apostasy and maleficarum activity, Meredith must be an incompetent Knight Commander?  And she only needs to replace her with someone the Templars respect.  Cullen would be a reasonable choice, and would hardly be soft on mages.  The general populace has no say.

3.  Why do you assume the Templars respect Meredith and Elthina could not replace her without proof?  We know some Templars were willing to take up arms against her.  If Thrask thinks a coup is feasible, he must not think Meredith's support is that overwhelming.  Even Cullen by act 3 is saying that he's no longer sure if he's obeying the Order or just Meredith.  I don't think we ever hear any Templar late in the game praise her, and there are rumors that she's a recluse, and that she's crazy.  All we know is they're willing to follow her orders to carry out the annulment, but they're not willing to kill Hawke.   What makes you so sure they'd be willing to defy the Grand Cleric if she came down clearly in opposition to Meredith.

Given the long-term effects of lyrium addiction, there must be a mechanism for replacing a Knight Commander without having to go through an elaborate trial or a war. 

Modifié par maxernst, 15 novembre 2011 - 07:28 .