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[Gervaise]

Please note that the Templars were quite willing to follow the "mad" Knight-Commander's orders and anul the Circle despite the fact that many of them would have known the Circle wasn't responsible. Also Cullen was the only Templar to step forward and defy her. When Sampson went in search of Templars loyal to Meredith who should he come back with but Cullen. Once it became clear that the conspiracy was between Templars and blood mages, it was only short step of logic to presume that any insurrection in Templar ranks was the result of blood mage domination. Even Elthina seems to have heard of this and now assumes that the conflict is between the Templars and Blood Mages.

The Divine will not think that either Meredith or Elthina are incompetent because of the large number of apostates and blood mages present in the city. She thinks they are the result of the activities of the Resolutionists and they are making Kirkwall the focus of their campaign of terrorism against the Chantry and Circles. Hence she advises (not orders) Elthina to leave for her own safety but Elthina declines, believing (probably quite correctly) that once she leaves, the way will be open to send in the troops in support of Meredith, not to replace her. Elthina is determined to play down the seriousness of the situation because she is trying to avoid bloodshed. She also probably still believes Orsino is innocent of any involvement, which is why he would wish to appeal to her and Meredith would wish to prevent him.

At the beginning of Act 3 if you refuse to help Meredith to hunt mages with Bethany in the Circle, she will point out that whilst she acknowledges that Bethany is an exemplary mage, that will not save her if the actions of apostates cause a general outcry against the mages. This clearly foreshadows what happens later. In my Hawke's case, since I had taken the almost insane step of taking Anders with me into the Gallows and he had openly challenged Meredith, comparing himself to a wolf while Bethany and the Circle mages are dogs on the leash, he is well aware of what will happen if he takes the action that he does.

If Elthina had abandoned her post and left Kirkwall, Anders would still have bombed the Chantry.
If Elthina had been able in some way to remove Meredith from power, Anders would still have bombed the Chantry.
If Elthina had persuaded Meredith to relax her control over the Circle and put her own house in order, Anders would still have bombed the Chantry.

Anders telling Hawke to give Elthina one last chance was just more flummary, like his lie about the potion being to separate him from Justice. Do you seriously think that if Elthina had turned round and said to Hawke, okay I'll do everything you ask, that Anders would have changed course? Of course not, because the only thing that would appease Anders by this stage would be the total freedom for mages, and that is something that Elthina did not have the power to give. She represents the compromise that he so hates.

Anders bombed the Chantry because to him it was the symbol of everything that was wrong with the world. Elthina was just collateral damage, as was anyone else unfortunate enough to be there at the time, and as were the Circle Mages that he knowingly condemned to death by his action.

Trying to blame Elthina for the events is naive in the extreme Bottom line is, either you approve of using terrorism to achieve your aims or you do not. Personally I do not.

[jamesp81]

heiveldboy wrote...

Ugh, I've just played DA2 again and I really have to say... I want to kill her.
During the whole game she goes on and on about the maker shouldn't do this and do that and blahblahblah and that she wants to remain 'neutral' while making excuses for anything the templars do... Hypocrite chantry/templar cleric...

I can honestly say that I understand why Anders killed her...

Anyone else agree?

I don't have quite the visceral reaction to her that you do.

That said, what happened to her was inevitable when she did nothing to reign in the abuses of the people under her command.  For that, I can't marshal much sympathy for her.  If you allow your subordinates to unjustly abuse people, you should not be surprised if their retribution gets you as well.

Ultimately, Elthina is responsible for the actions of those under her command.  When the time came that the templars and the Chantry were made to suffer consequences for their actions, she was rightly included in that.

Modifié par jamesp81, 15 novembre 2011 - 08:10 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Had Elthina, the Champion of Kirkwall, and the Captain of the Guard sent a joint message to the Divine stating that Meredith was making things worse in Kirkwall by abusing the mages and giving the Resolutionists a fertile ground from which to recruit, that would have carried enough weight to have Meredith replaced. Of course, we're never given that option.

[Lazy Jer]

heiveldboy wrote...

Ugh, I've just played DA2 again and I really have to say... I want to kill her.
During the whole game she goes on and on about the maker shouldn't do this and do that and blahblahblah and that she wants to remain 'neutral' while making excuses for anything the templars do... Hypocrite chantry/templar cleric...

I can honestly say that I understand why Anders killed her...

Anyone else agree?

Not really.  First of all, Anders didn't kill her out of frustration for he not doing anything.  Anders killed her, and the rest of those present in the Chantry, so that she wouldn't do anything.  He wanted a war between the Circle Mages and the Templar Order because he felt that the Circle in any form was oppression and must be abolished.  He considered the Circle an absolute wrong, and any mediation between the Circle and the Templar Order would be supporting an absolutely wrong.  Frankly I think he was out of his flippin' head, but that's how I read his motivations.

Second, I do agree that she should have done a lot more to mediate between the Templar Order and the Circle.  She should have taken a stronger stand against Knight-Comander Meredeth's refusal to allow a new Viscount to be selected.  As one of the only people K.C. Merry MIGHT have listened to, she was one of the few people that could have talked to Meredeth and Osino when the Circle and the Templar Order started to really butt heads.  I don't really wish her dead, but I do wish she'd gotten off her toukus and made decision.

But then if she HAD then the game would have been a lot more boring.

[TheJediSaint]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Had Elthina, the Champion of Kirkwall, and the Captain of the Guard sent a joint message to the Divine stating that Meredith was making things worse in Kirkwall by abusing the mages and giving the Resolutionists a fertile ground from which to recruit, that would have carried enough weight to have Meredith replaced. Of course, we're never given that option.

That's a reasonable solution.  The problem is that Anders did not want a reasonable solution.  A reasonable solution would have only given him some of what he wanted.  But as an extremist who deals only in absolutes, Anders would only have settled for getting everything  that he wanted.  If anything, reasonable people like Elthina would have been a greater threat to Ander's goals than any Templar would have.  Having  Elthina help broker a reasonable solution like you've outlined would have gotten in the way of the "glorious" mage rebellion he was trying to spark.

So he killed her, along with likely dozens of innocents in a pre-meditated act of terrorism.  Leaving his supporters to blame the victim in order to justify his actions.

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 15 novembre 2011 - 09:11 .

[PPR223]

Well Elthina could be irritating, but remember she still has to answer to the Divine, so she can't do whatever she likes and has to be careful.

Regarding Anders, whilst knowing the ending, it would have been better if she had lived, due to Meredith probably turning mad no matter what. Meredith would have tried to gain utmost power, and Elthina would have stood against her at this point. The Mages and Templars would have sided with Elthina and removed Meredith from power, which means no war and a better Templar Commander.

[maxernst]

Gervaise wrote...

Anders telling Hawke to give Elthina one last chance was just more flummary, like his lie about the potion being to separate him from Justice. Do you seriously think that if Elthina had turned round and said to Hawke, okay I'll do everything you ask, that Anders would have changed course? Of course not, because the only thing that would appease Anders by this stage would be the total freedom for mages, and that is something that Elthina did not have the power to give. She represents the compromise that he so hates.

Anders bombed the Chantry because to him it was the symbol of everything that was wrong with the world. Elthina was just collateral damage, as was anyone else unfortunate enough to be there at the time, and as were the Circle Mages that he knowingly condemned to death by his action.

Trying to blame Elthina for the events is naive in the extreme Bottom line is, either you approve of using terrorism to achieve your aims or you do not. Personally I do not.

If Elthina had replaced Meredith, Anders might still have bombed the Chantry, but doing so would have likely failed to achieve his ends.  His plan hinged on the Knight Commander imposing the Rite of Annulment because of the actions of someone outside the Circle.  Take Meredith out of the equation, and there might be no rite of annulment, and therefore, no mage revolution.

BTW, I agree completely that Anders had no real desire for Elthina to act.  Someone like Cullen replacing Meredith would have been the worst possible outcome from Anders point of view.  The worst abuses of the Templars would be reined in, but mages would have been no freer.  Even Thrask wouldn't have been good enough for Anders. 

[Realmzmaster]

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The assumption is that Ella is alive to make an accusation. If Hawke cannot control Anders/Justice Ella is dead.  The other point is those made tranquil would be seen as violating Chantry rules and deserving of their punishment so no would listen to them. Also given that the general populace fears mages they will probably not shed a tear over it. They see Meredith as a strong leader protecting them from the danger. So removing Meredith would be problematic.

 Elthina primary job is to oversee her flock. Mages and templars constitute only a small portion of that flock. She is  concern with protecting the citizenry. Elthina plays the moderating voice to keep the citizens safe and Meredith in check. 
Meredith still respects Elthina as a friend and superior which is what Elthina uses to keep Meredith in check. Elthina could send for a new Knight-Commander, but who does she place in charge until then. She has to find someone the citizens would accept. If Meredith detects Elthina is getting soft on mages she could petition for the removal of the Grand Cleric.
The Divine would listen because she already thinks Kirkwall is the seat of apostasy and maleficarum activity.

It is Meredith's task to oversee the templars which is why she is Knight-Commander. The templars respect Meredith and without proof Elthina could not remove her.

The citizenry  remember that Meredith played a part in the battle against the Arishok and proclaimed Hawke Champion of Kirkwall in fron of the nobles. Meredith came to the aid of the city and used the templars to defend the city.

Removing Meredith is not an option for Elthina. Anders removes all possibility by killing the Grand Cleric which was his intent. This act pushes Meredith way over the edge because this mage has no only killed the Grand Cleric but a person she saw as a  friend. Given the fact Meredith was going to search the tower anyhow. Anders just handed her what she wanted on a silver plate.

Cullen is able to remove her because all the templars can see she has gone over the edge and will attack even  them.

Virtually everything in this post is unsubstantiated assumptions.

1.  According to Anders, harrowed mages cannot to be made Tranquil as punishment.  He could be wrong, but as far as I know, there is nothing to contradict him in the lore.  And what's your evidence that Meredith has great public support?  Yes, she did participate in the defeat of the Arishok, but Hawke is more commonly credited with the victory, and if Hawke, Aveline and Elthina were engaged in a popularity contest with Meredith, I'm not convinced Meredith wins. 

2.  Why do you assume that the Divine would listen to Meredith in preference to Elthina?  Could she not conclude that since Kirkwall is a hotbed of apostasy and maleficarum activity, Meredith must be an incompetent Knight Commander?  And she only needs to replace her with someone the Templars respect.  Cullen would be a reasonable choice, and would hardly be soft on mages.  The general populace has no say.

3.  Why do you assume the Templars respect Meredith and Elthina could not replace her without proof?  We know some Templars were willing to take up arms against her.  If Thrask thinks a coup is feasible, he must not think Meredith's support is that overwhelming.  Even Cullen by act 3 is saying that he's no longer sure if he's obeying the Order or just Meredith.  I don't think we ever hear any Templar late in the game praise her, and there are rumors that she's a recluse, and that she's crazy.  All we know is they're willing to follow her orders to carry out the annulment, but they're not willing to kill Hawke.   What makes you so sure they'd be willing to defy the Grand Cleric if she came down clearly in opposition to Meredith.

Given the long-term effects of lyrium addiction, there must be a mechanism for replacing a Knight Commander without having to go through an elaborate trial or a war. 

The Divine could conclude that Elthina is an ineffective Grand Cleric because of the amount of activity in Kirkwall. The Divine  suggests (but does not order) that Elthina flee to the Chantry in Orlais, Elthina to her credit does not leave her flock. Note the Divine does not tell the Knight-Commander to leave because she expects her to stay and fight. Probably leading part of the troops that will be assigned to march on Kirkwall.

I do not assume that the templars respect Meredith herself (some do), but they do respect the office she holds and for what it stands that is the way a chain of command works. Until you can replace the person in the office or that person is relieved you are duty bound to honor the office and follow the orders of the person in it (unless the person is declared unfit for duty) or be considered a renegade and perhaps a traitor. Meredith is not declared unfit for duty until Cullen does it. Thrask  and those following him become renegades.

The nobles want Meredith gone because they have zero control as long as she holds power. A Viscount would have to listen to the nobles and the citizenry, Meredith does not.

The mechanism for relieveing a superior of duty (if it follows military procedure) requires that two or more senior officers below that person bring the charge. or the person's superior makes the removal. Cullen does it under extreme circumstances, but most of the templars are assembled in the courtyard and see Meredith's behavior.

Of course everything we discuss here is assumptions, but I am enjoying the discussion.

[maxernst]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Had Elthina, the Champion of Kirkwall, and the Captain of the Guard sent a joint message to the Divine stating that Meredith was making things worse in Kirkwall by abusing the mages and giving the Resolutionists a fertile ground from which to recruit, that would have carried enough weight to have Meredith replaced. Of course, we're never given that option.

That's a reasonable solution.  The problem is that Anders did not want a reasonable solution.  A reasonable solution would have only given him some of what he wanted.  But as an extremist who deals only in absolutes, Anders would only have settled for getting everything  that he wanted.  If anything, reasonable people like Elthina would have been a greater threat to Ander's goals than any Templar would have.  Having  Elthina help broker a reasonable solution like you've outlined would have gotten in the way of the "glorious" mage rebellion he was trying to spark.

So he killed her, along with likely dozens of innocents in a pre-meditated act of terrorism.  Leaving his supporters to blame the victim in order to justify his actions.

I agree with both of these posts.  However, it still doesn't absolve Elthina, Hawke, and the Templars under Meredith who know what's going on for allowing Meredith's reign of terror to continue unchallenged.  Anders wasn't in a position to obstruct Elthina, Hakwe and Aveline from addressing the Divine.

[jamesp81]

PPR223 wrote...

Well Elthina could be irritating, but remember she still has to answer to the Divine, so she can't do whatever she likes and has to be careful.

Regarding Anders, whilst knowing the ending, it would have been better if she had lived, due to Meredith probably turning mad no matter what. Meredith would have tried to gain utmost power, and Elthina would have stood against her at this point. The Mages and Templars would have sided with Elthina and removed Meredith from power, which means no war and a better Templar Commander.

And what in the ever loving hell makes you think she'd have done that at all?  Elthina was unwilling to bring the hammer down on Meredith when it was common knowledge that rape and assault were common occurences in the gallows.  If she wasn't willing to take a stand then, I have no confidence that she ever would've.

Hell, Meredith was exercising civil authority for three years, which is completely illegal under Chantry law, and Elthina didn't do a damn thing.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

maxernst wrote...

The Divine could conclude that Elthina is an ineffective Grand Cleric because of the amount of activity in Kirkwall. The Divine  suggests (but does not order) that Elthina flee to the Chantry in Orlais, Elthina to her credit does not leave her flock. Note the Divine does not tell the Knight-Commander to leave because she expects her to stay and fight. Probably leading part of the troops that will be assigned to march on Kirkwall.

I do not assume that the templars respect Meredith herself (some do), but they do respect the office she holds and for what it stands that is the way a chain of command works. Until you can replace the person in the office or that person is relieved you are duty bound to honor the office and follow the orders of the person in it (unless the person is declared unfit for duty) or be considered a renegade and perhaps a traitor. Meredith is not declared unfit for duty until Cullen does it. Thrask  and those following him become renegades.

The nobles want Meredith gone because they have zero control as long as she holds power. A Viscount would have to listen to the nobles and the citizenry, Meredith does not.

The mechanism for relieveing a superior of duty (if it follows military procedure) requires that two or more senior officers below that person bring the charge. or the person's superior makes the removal. Cullen does it under extreme circumstances, but most of the templars are assembled in the courtyard and see Meredith's behavior.

Of course everything we discuss here is assumptions, but I am enjoying the discussion.

Why would the Divine conclude Elthina was an ineffective Grand Cleric because of apostate activity in Kirkwall?  That's what the Templars are there for.  It's not her responsibility and she does not directly control the Templars.
And your point about the nobles is likely true, but means that Elthina should be able to find support there in a conflict with Meredith, particularly if she's got Hawke & Aveline's support.

And if its the office Meredith holds rather than Meredith herself that the Templars respect, if a superior (Elthina) declares Meredith unfit for duty, why would they continue to follow her?  The crux of the "Elthina can't do anything" argument rests on the assumption that the Templars will obey Meredith in preference to the Grand Cleric. 

Now, admittedly, Elthina may fear that's the case, but since she never actually tries it, we don't know for sure.  It still leaves her weak and ineffectual in my books.

Modifié par maxernst, 15 novembre 2011 - 11:05 .

[Realmzmaster]

I would have like to see the option where Elthina could removed Meredith. It would have been interesting to see Meredith (with the subtle influence of the idol) disobey Elthina. The templars would then perhaps be fractured into different camps.

I would have also like to see Hawke attempt to stop Anders before the big blowup. Hawke could turn Anders in to the Circle especially after the Justice quest. If you are in a rivalry with Anders during the Justice quest you can rat him out to Cullen but nothing happens. Anders could then escape (something he was very good at) and still continue with the Chantry destruction. Hawke's companions talk about turning in Merrill and Anders but nothing ever happens, because they defer to Hawke.

DA2 unfortunately had some missed opportunities which would have made for a more involved story. I can only hope that the writers considered these possibilities but pass on them for some reason not known to me.

[Killjoy Cutter]

TheJediSaint wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Had Elthina, the Champion of Kirkwall, and the Captain of the Guard sent a joint message to the Divine stating that Meredith was making things worse in Kirkwall by abusing the mages and giving the Resolutionists a fertile ground from which to recruit, that would have carried enough weight to have Meredith replaced. Of course, we're never given that option.

That's a reasonable solution.  The problem is that Anders did not want a reasonable solution.  A reasonable solution would have only given him some of what he wanted.  But as an extremist who deals only in absolutes, Anders would only have settled for getting everything  that he wanted.  If anything, reasonable people like Elthina would have been a greater threat to Ander's goals than any Templar would have.  Having  Elthina help broker a reasonable solution like you've outlined would have gotten in the way of the "glorious" mage rebellion he was trying to spark.

So he killed her, along with likely dozens of innocents in a pre-meditated act of terrorism.  Leaving his supporters to blame the victim in order to justify his actions.

Exactly. 

And because Bioware needed Anders to blow up the Chantry, and needed Meredith to go the rest of the way off the deep end, the player is never given the chance to interfere.

[Killjoy Cutter]

maxernst wrote...

TheJediSaint wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Had Elthina, the Champion of Kirkwall, and the Captain of the Guard sent a joint message to the Divine stating that Meredith was making things worse in Kirkwall by abusing the mages and giving the Resolutionists a fertile ground from which to recruit, that would have carried enough weight to have Meredith replaced. Of course, we're never given that option.

That's a reasonable solution.  The problem is that Anders did not want a reasonable solution.  A reasonable solution would have only given him some of what he wanted.  But as an extremist who deals only in absolutes, Anders would only have settled for getting everything  that he wanted.  If anything, reasonable people like Elthina would have been a greater threat to Ander's goals than any Templar would have.  Having  Elthina help broker a reasonable solution like you've outlined would have gotten in the way of the "glorious" mage rebellion he was trying to spark.

So he killed her, along with likely dozens of innocents in a pre-meditated act of terrorism.  Leaving his supporters to blame the victim in order to justify his actions.

I agree with both of these posts.  However, it still doesn't absolve Elthina, Hawke, and the Templars under Meredith who know what's going on for allowing Meredith's reign of terror to continue unchallenged.  Anders wasn't in a position to obstruct Elthina, Hakwe and Aveline from addressing the Divine.

Bioware never even gives the player any chance to do anything of the sort -- it's not Hawke or Aveline or Elthina's fault that they were all passengers on the "We Have a Story to Tell Stop Interupting" Express.

[Heimdall]

I doubt the Captain of the Guard in a distant city state has much pull with the Divine in Orlais in regards to Chantry matters. Nor is Aveline particularly sympathetic to the Mage's cause given her guardsmen have been dealing with the blood Mage and apostate business themselves as much as the Templars have to. I doubt the hero of a single city state has much influence either. Hawke really can't make the Divine do anything Elthina can't.

[Killjoy Cutter]

That's why I suggested Elthina, Hawke, and Avaline sending a joint letter. It's the three most important people in the city not named "fruitbat". If he's willing, have Thrask sign it as well.

And who on earth ever said anything about "making" the Devine do anything -- it's about making sure that the Divine understands what is actually going on in Kirkwall, and that it's as much Meredith's fault as anyone else's.

[Sisterofshane]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Need I remind people that Elthina is commonly thought by the people of Kirkwall to have the moral high ground and that she's seen as a hero (sort-of) for defeating the tyrant before Dumar? Up until the Qunari attack, there is absolutely NO evidence whatsoever of any wrong doing on Meredith's part. We know of Kerras wanting a blood bath and potentially raping Hawke, we know Alrik is a sadist forcing tranquility on mages in secret because Meredith, Elthina, and the Divine told him 'no.' We know Varnell went rogue under Petrice's orders.

Did Hawke have any proof to give anyone? No. Kerras was doing his duty and I had the impression he's a superior rank to Thrask, which is why Thrask was trying to get things resolved before Kerras got there. We had a letter on Alrik which proves the Tranquil Solution was rejected. And if we have the letter from the lieutenant about Karl, we are never given any reason why Karl was made tranquil. We can speculate on that all we want, but we aren't given any definite reasons.

If Hawke went up to Elthina and said the mages are being abused and the templars are abusing their power, Elthina would say what proof do you have? I cannot act without proof.

Hawke would not be able to provide any. Even Anders who let Hawke know about Alrik, didn't have any proof and wanted to sneak into the gallows to find some. We do see Alrik borderline tell a girl he's going to rape her and make her tranquil, but Anders isn't a reliable, unbiased witness. And we didn't get any proof of his actions beforehand.

So when Elthina (or Leliana in Act 3) asks for proof if Hawke brought it up, all Hawke would be able to say is "errrm...."

Wow, A LOT of people here believe that Elthina was as blind as she was dumb.  There is enough evidence within the game to prove that she was much more informed then she ever let on.  I came to this conclusion after the whole Petrice story arc, when the Qunari shoots Petrice dead within the Chantry.  Elthina doesn't even flinch, and Hawke didn't have any "proof" as to what Mother Petrice was up to there, either.  In fact, if the Grand Cleric truly knew nothing about what was going on with the Qunari, I think Hawke would have been in an undefensible position.

Her stance within the game was to staunchly sit upon her laurels and let the Maker sort it out.  As the City she loved and served crumbled around her she became even more apathetic about the situation.  And I truly believe that, even if Anders had not blown the Chantry sky high, the way that Elthina kept up the stalemate between the Templars and the Mages would have eventually gotten her killed, anyway.  There was no way she was going to keep the lid on top of THAT particular pot much longer, not with how loony and desperate both sides were becoming.

[Sisterofshane]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

That's why I suggested Elthina, Hawke, and Avaline sending a joint letter. It's the three most important people in the city not named "fruitbat". If he's willing, have Thrask sign it as well.

And who on earth ever said anything about "making" the Devine do anything -- it's about making sure that the Divine understands what is actually going on in Kirkwall, and that it's as much Meredith's fault as anyone else's.

This so would have worked!
Reasonable leaders search for dangerous *quirks* amongst their groups and step in before the situation gets out of control.  Think about Knight-Commander Gregoir.  He saw what was developing in Cullen long before it got out of control, with his hatred towards mages growing everyday.  That is why he basically had him booted out of the Circle Tower of Ferelden. Cullen was just lucky that Meredith picked him up, or he probably would have ended up in some Chantry somewhere, ineffectual and forgotten.  Gregoir saw that CULLEN was a danger to keep around mages, and he was reasonable compared to Meredith.

[Heimdall]

As has been said before, some of it is a matter of what you can prove. The Divine also has no reason to take anyone but Elthina's word in Kirkwall. She has no reason to listen to Hawke, Aveline, or even the Warden himself/herself. They aren't part of the chantry and may prove anti-chantry, she has no reason to trust them. Their word adds no weight to Elthina's, in fact it may make it look like they coerced her.

And personally, I think groups like the Resolutionists have are as much to blame for the issue as anyone else.

[heiveldboy]

Lord Aesir wrote...

As has been said before, some of it is a matter of what you can prove. The Divine also has no reason to take anyone but Elthina's word in Kirkwall. She has no reason to listen to Hawke, Aveline, or even the Warden himself/herself. They aren't part of the chantry and may prove anti-chantry, she has no reason to trust them. Their word adds no weight to Elthina's, in fact it may make it look like they coerced her.

And personally, I think groups like the Resolutionists have are as much to blame for the issue as anyone else.

Hawke's and Aveline's word may have no weight to the Divine, but they do to the populance... And the last thing the Divine (or the templars) would want is a 'peasant' uprising... Believe me, they might be some mere peasants with torches and sticks, but they can be a serious problem if not tended to.

The Resolutionist are to blame, but so is Meredith, and so is Orsino for allowing Blood Mages, and so is Anders,so is Elthina for not doing anything, and well... so is Hawke for being at the worst moment at the worst place. All of them added a piece to the problem that escalated in the Mage/Templar battle in Act3

Modifié par heiveldboy, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:29 .

[Gervaise]

Exactly, no single person can be to blame for the situation in Kirkwall by the end of Act 3 because so much is going on in the wider world (as we shall no doubt discover in the soon to be published book) that is constraining and controlling how people react in Kirkwall. It would be helpful if someone from the developers could actually explain their rationale for allowing certain events to happen and preventing certain people from acting - other than just the fact that by the end they needed a mage revolution. If Elthina had done any of the things people say she should have done and succeeded, then DA3 just wouldn't happen in the way they wished.

However, in game they do drop clues, in the form of the Kirkwall Engima and other quests, that the situation in Kirkwall is rather odd - there are a higher proportion of blood mages in Kirkwall than in the rest of Thedas and a higher proportion of apprentices fail their harrowing. This would account for the stronger Templar presence here and the more extremist views among those in charge. But again, it does not explain (other than convenient plot device) why no one ever thought to move the Circle away from the Gallows.

I would have liked to see the trial of Petrice because I think there is a very good chance she would have got off, bearing in mind that the person she killed had converted to the Qun and was therefore effectively a traitor in the eyes of the people. Then the Qun would have exacted vigilante justice. As it was they jumped the gun because they presumably anticipated as much. Thus Elthina was as much constrained in her actions with the Qunari as she was with the mages. There was a lot of anti-Quanri feeling and fear in the city (understandable bearing in mind its history), so she had to trust that the Vicount would deal with any problems. May be Petrice did have her tacit approval but we just don't know for certain.

I also believe that no matter when Anders had blown the Chantry, Meredith's response would have been the same - these two protagonists are the one constant in the game that point ahead to what is to come. Everyone else is subject to outside influence and capable of moderating their view point. These two are committed to a certain way of thinking that is reflected in the wider world of the Templars and Resolutionists. The need to contain and control the power of dangerous people versus the right of individuals to freedom of action even though they do have enormous potential to cause harm.

There are many places throughout the game where people do not react as you think they should, which is not the fault of the character but the writers. The reason we expend so much time on these forums is that we are trying to make sense of something that very often defies logic. But then I supppose that is like life, so often we are wiser with the benefit of hindsight. It would be helpful to have some answer from the developers - perhaps that is to come in the book or DA3

[Heimdall]

The populace was never in much danger of uprising . They feared mages more than Templars.

[heiveldboy]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The populace was never in much danger of uprising . They feared mages more than Templars.

You do forget that by Act 3 half of the nobles were angry that Meredith were in control (I believe some give a quest) and that many whispers and dark rumors were spreading about Merdith. Those people aren't stupid, they understand when something is wrong, and the nobles wouldn't suffer the usurping of the viscount seat for long and what better way to manipulate the crowd?

Modifié par heiveldboy, 16 novembre 2011 - 12:15 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The populace was never in much danger of uprising . They feared mages more than Templars.

Really?  They seemed more bothered by the Templars by that point, and certainly opposed to Meredith's defacto rulership of the city.

[AlexXIV]

Gervaise wrote...
It would be helpful if someone from the developers could actually explain their rationale for allowing certain events to happen and preventing certain people from acting - other than just the fact that by the end they needed a mage revolution. If Elthina had done any of the things people say she should have done and succeeded, then DA3 just wouldn't happen in the way they wished.

There are really two options. Either I am too stupid to understand it, or it is too stupid for me to make sense. And seeing how I rarely just don't understand something everyone else seems to be clear about, I would think I am not too stupid. Actually if you look at their games, Bioware plots are not complicated and everything is pretty much explained in the game itself. Because every game, even if it is a sequel, should be stand alone as well. Because you can't expect people to buy books, DLCs, expansions, sequels, just to make some sense in this one game. They should have put all important information right there into the main game.

It is something that annoys me to no end that you obviously have to buy additional content or search the forum or wikia to get informations that should be given in the game. And I really think it is not on purpose but rather something they forgot or didn't do thoroughly enough. And that may even be one reason why this game was recieved badly by some people.

Sometimes I read explainations here on the forum, by fans, that amaze me because they seem to make sense, but then I think ... no, that's not what Bioware was trying to do. Because, simply they would not think that complicated. So anyhow, many characters in DA2 simply suffer from lack of depth that would explain maybe the one thing or the other. Judging for Example Elthina, or Cullen, from the few scraps of dialogue (or monologue) we are offered just leaves too much interpretation.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:40 .