24 réponses à ce sujet

[Craig McDermott]

Would it be viable to make a rogue with enough str for light armor (20 i believe) and enough dex for dual wield talents, and ALL the rest into cunning?

I imagine damage would be very good, depending on a couple things.  First, do the damage bonuses from Exploit Weakness and The Tainted Blade stack with each other and Lethality?

Secondly, it doesn't look like Lethality substitutes cunning for strength when it comes to attack rolls.  Has anyone tried a pure cunning build and managed to have a decent hit rate?

[Scosher]

Well my first playthrough on my rogue I was going cunning daggers and my hit rate was around 75% with no real party buffs. That's alright I suppose, but don't forget you lose a lot more damage when your backstab misses than squeaking out a few more damage points per backstab with Cunning. Now with a Str/Dex rogue, my hit rate is at 88-90% with no party buffs.



In other words, if you're going for a Cunning rogue, you might want Champion/Bard attack buffs or a Miasma debuff on the mobs.

[T0rin3]

It's viable, the main problem is lack of attack power.

[HomelessDepot]

If you haven't seen it, Disco's rogue dps breakdown is pretty much a mandatory read at this point. LOTS of good info. Like weapon effects are bugged so only main-hand runes trigger.



http://social.biowar...66/index/223777



-HD

[metatrans]

your assessment is correct. Lethality builds with high cunning and low strength can do excellent damage but occasionally suffer a high miss rate because only the damage bonus is transferred by Lethality, not the hit bonus.



there are several ways to get around this.



1) always attack from flanking. a rogue gets up to +20 attack while flanking and this is usually more than enough to get sufficient hit rates.



2) use party buffs. there are lots. pick a few good ones. that are convenient to use based on whoever is in your party. you can also include enemy defense debuffs, they are equivalent to party attack buffs in terms of affecting your hit rate.



3) select Bard or Duelist as a specialization (probably a 2nd specialization after Assassin). Bard has Song of Courage which can provide a very nice bonus with a high cunning score. Duelist has an attack score increase from their Dueling mode.

[gurugeorge]

It's certainly viable, I was getting 81% last time I checked at lvl 10 - I've gone Bard/Duellist (now lvl 15), and highest damage at that point was 100. I went with high cunning and coercion because my character is persuasive, so I figured going Lethality would kill two birds with one stone. I use Axe and Dagger.  Plus I love playing Bards in these sorts of games and wanted the good trap detection and lockpicking skills. I do have the "fix" thingy though, so that probably makes a difference? I also always strike from flanking whenever I can, and have the skill that makes the flank area wider at back. I'm not a huge min-maxer, but keep my eye on these things, so I'm pretty satisfied overall - love my character!

Modifié par gurugeorge, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:44 .

[Inarai]

T0rin3 wrote...

It's viable, the main problem is lack of attack power.

Which is completely circumvented by Lethality.

So, yeah, it can e done - best to do it as a dagger or ranged rogue, though.

[T0rin3]

81% hit rate is pretty bad, a good example of why this build needs help. At teh end of my last party nightmare game, my Str based Rogue had 96% hit rate. That's the difference between having enough attack and not.



With high cunning, a Bard will give equivalent attack power as Duelist, but also give damage. But earlier on, Duelist will be better, plus Dueling is a tier 1 talent, Song of Courage is a tier 3.



Assassin though is a must for every melee cunning rogue.

[T0rin3]

Inarai wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

It's viable, the main problem is lack of attack power.

Which is completely circumvented by Lethality.

So, yeah, it can e done - best to do it as a dagger or ranged rogue, though.

How is it circumvented by Lethality? The problem is Lethality, it doesn't give any attack power.

The Cun based ranged rogue suffers the same issues as the melee rogue, except they want to go to 30 dexterity, which helps their attack power a bit.

Basically, focusing on cunning is ignoring attack power all together, which comes from strength and dexterity for all rogues but Shortbow users... evgen when you augment it with group skills like Rally and Heroic Offensive, you still have subpar attack rating.

[Craig McDermott]

Attack power? This isn't WoW so I don't know what people are talking about. Typically attack power = damage, in which case Lethality does increase it.



What it doesn't increase is attack, or chance to hit, like t0rin is saying.

[gurugeorge]

T0rin3 wrote...

81% hit rate is pretty bad

For lvl 10?

[MC DrowBane]

a CUN build rouge is "viable" considering the options and potential
good thread here

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/117100

Modifié par MC DrowBane, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:58 .

[Inarai]

T0rin3 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

T0rin3 wrote...

It's viable, the main problem is lack of attack power.

Which is completely circumvented by Lethality.

So, yeah, it can e done - best to do it as a dagger or ranged rogue, though.

How is it circumvented by Lethality? The problem is Lethality, it doesn't give any attack power.

The Cun based ranged rogue suffers the same issues as the melee rogue, except they want to go to 30 dexterity, which helps their attack power a bit.

If you're talking damage, which is the natural way to interpet your "attack power" phrase, that's EXACTLY what lethality does - it lets you replace strength with cunning in damage calculations.  I have not checked on potential influence with accuracy, though - I'd test that before reaching any conclusions.

[SpideyKnight]

Inarai you have a misunderstanding. Attack power is your chance to HIT. Damage is the damage that you do. Lethality only converts cunning into a damage modifier. It doesn't do anything for attack power which again is your chance to hit. So the build misses more often than dex or str builds.

[Inarai]

SpideyKnight wrote...

Inarai you have a misunderstanding. Attack power is your chance to HIT. Damage is the damage that you do. Lethality only converts cunning into a damage modifier. It doesn't do anything for attack power which again is your chance to hit. So the build misses more often than dex or str builds.

See, this is why I use game standard terms, which "attack power" is NOT.  Nor does it intuitively transalte to accuracy.  If he must try to come off as more technical, "attack rating" would be a better choice - but the game only uses "attack".

When you start talking power, people think damage.  I'm not sure where you're pulling it from, but it's not a context everyone is familiar with.

And as I said, I'd test the whole lethality/accuracy thing first.  I know I haven't had issues making contact with anything.

[Scyles]

This type of build is going to fail you when you need it most - against bosses with high defense.

[Serogon]

In case anyone was too lazy to read the post that HomelessDepot linked to, Dagger/Dagger rogues that focus on cunning actually do the most damage. So it's not just viable, it's actually the best choice.

[Ulyn]

Inarai, the game _uses_ the terms attack, defence, armor and damage for those 4 important and different figures. Bring up the inventory screen when you play and hover over the icons in the bottom left.



Attack means "to hit" in oldschool parlance - and incidentally, DA:O isn't the only game to use the term, I'd say it's currently more normal than "to hit" outside of pen and paper rp. It isn't affected by lethality. This has been tested thoroughly. (Arcane Warriors are in a similar situation, where their spellpower-turned-str doesn't given them the same attack that 42 str would.)



Likewise, "defence" is also a "to hit" value, whereas armor is not; it's straight damage mitigation without a to-hit component.

[Craig McDermott]

Serogon wrote...

In case anyone was too lazy to read the post that HomelessDepot linked to, Dagger/Dagger rogues that focus on cunning actually do the most damage. So it's not just viable, it's actually the best choice.

Well in Discobird's thread he stipulates that he presupposes a 100% hit rate.  This means that the DPS numbers aren't entirely accurate when we take into account +attack.

Ulyn wrote...

Inarai, the game _uses_ the terms attack,
defence, armor and damage for those 4 important and different figures.
Bring up the inventory screen when you play and hover over the icons in
the bottom left.

Attack means "to hit" in oldschool parlance -
and incidentally, DA:O isn't the only game to use the term, I'd say
it's currently more normal than "to hit" outside of pen and paper rp.
It isn't affected by lethality. This has been tested thoroughly.
(Arcane Warriors are in a similar situation, where their
spellpower-turned-str doesn't given them the same attack that 42 str
would.)

Likewise, "defence" is also a "to hit" value, whereas
armor is not; it's straight damage mitigation without a to-hit
component.

I think you misunderstand.  Inarai's confusion was based around the term "attack POWER," not just "attack."  He is correct that attack power is typically equated with damage and not to-hit chance.  As far as I know there aren't any games that use the term "attack power" to denote chance to hit.

[Ulyn]

The use of the word "power" didn't make me think Torin's meant WOW AP instead of DA:O attack. I did misunderstand the nature of what I'd term others' misunderstanding, but at any rate, no point in being tedious about it.



Lethality, doesn't, at any rate, resolve the to-hit problem. Cunning build still gets the job done. I've yet to even get a rogue to Evasion.

[Inarai]

Inarai, the game _uses_ the terms attack, defence, armor and damage for those 4 important and different figures. Bring up the inventory screen when you play and hover over the icons in the bottom left.

See, this is why I use game standard terms, which "attack power" is NOT. Nor does it intuitively transalte to accuracy. If he must try to come off as more technical, "attack rating" would be a better choice - but the game only uses "attack".

...



I'd like to note as well that I did bother to address the other possibility, that he meant accuracy. I just didn't need as much space to address it, so that used less.



And I'm very familiar with old school parlance (I'd ask what THAC0 was as a joke quiz, but I suspect most people here would get it).



As far as the to-hit problem, though... I'm not sure if it is so much a problem. Maybe a few extra points should be tossed into DEX, but all in all your hit rate is gonna be pretty decent - ESPECIALLY since your enemies should usually be disabled (Coup de Grace, anyone?) in some form, and I suspect easier to hit...



Gah, wish we had more official details on the mechanics.

[Mulgero]

First of all for cunning & dagger/dagger or archer rogue you will need to get that un-official dexterity fix and 1.01( patch. Cunning build works wonders after that. Personally I balanced dex/cun and now I have around 120 defence & hit and daggers hit like truck.  I stay alive better than Alistair and enemies just die in few seconds. It almost ridilculously fun at 20...

What comes to rune info. Least my screen shows damage from all added damage runes from both hands unlike what is mentioned in that thread.

Modifié par Mulgero, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:47 .

[Scyles]

Inarai wrote...
As far as the to-hit problem, though... I'm not sure if it is so much a problem. Maybe a few extra points should be tossed into DEX, but all in all your hit rate is gonna be pretty decent - ESPECIALLY since your enemies should usually be disabled (Coup de Grace, anyone?) in some form, and I suspect easier to hit...

How on earth could a pure Cunning rogue's hit rate be decent without investing any attribute points toward increasing attack rating?  A maxed-out Dexterity rogue would end up with around +35 or +40 attack rating over a pure Cunning rogue.  If a character with no points whatsoever invested toward accuracy can still hit enemies toward the end of the game, then something is badly wrong with the game's battle mechanics.  But, hey, I don't know, maybe you're right and enemies have no defense rating to speak of.

I suppose flanking and Coup de Grace contribute greatly toward "normalizing" such a character's accuracy, but isn't it rather impractical to assume the rogue will always be getting those bonuses?

Modifié par Scyles, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[T0rin3]

Inarai wrote...As far as the to-hit problem, though... I'm not sure if it is so much a problem. Maybe a few extra points should be tossed into DEX, but all in all your hit rate is gonna be pretty decent - ESPECIALLY since your enemies should usually be disabled (Coup de Grace, anyone?) in some form, and I suspect easier to hit...
Gah, wish we had more official details on the mechanics.

Well, I did not mean to invoke confusion with my reference to attack power... I did play WoW, but I stopped playing before they implemented "attack power", so I personally didn't make that correlation. I did mean attack when I said attack power, for some reason my mind makes that distinction, "attack" seems a bit out of place when writing, as though it is less descriptive of this particular variable. Regardless, I did mean "attack" or "accuracy" as to what this build's problem is, not damage.. I assume that would have been inferred with my comment on Lethality, as yes, obviously it boosts damage.

For a "pure" CUN rogue, it is a problem. On paper it might not seem like one, but I have played a Cun dagger/dagger and sword/dagger rogue on Nightmare to level 19 now, and the attack rating issue is always an issue, and a very noticable issue against bosses. I've also played a Str based Rogue so I do know the difference between good (96% hit rate) "attack power" () and mediocre attack power of the Cun build. Even with party buffs (in my case I used Rally and Heroic Offensive), the non-backstab attacks against most "boss level" enemies were less than spectacular. If you can backstab, it really isn't much of a problem, and you can backstab a grand majority of the time, but when you can't, you really feel the lack of attack power.

To suggest however that most of your enemies will be disabled, well, that's just silly. I did run both of my Rogues in a 2 mage group, and I did make Morrigan go down the various CC paths, but not even a remote majority of the enemies I killed were disabled, allowing Coup de Grace to work. It's a good skill, don't get me wrong, but don't expect it to allow you to backstab with a noticeably increased frequency. Disabling debuffs are good against the harder "boss level" enemies, as it allows the backstabs that would not normally go through, but other than that, I wouldn't expect it.

The ability to flank enemies goes a long way towards making up for the lack of attack power, but by no means can you expect to hit backstabs all the time. Even with a tank with good aggro generation, you will peel a decent amount of enemies away from the tank and start engaging in frontal attacks, that is where this build really hurts. And most of the time, you're not going to want to go into stealth to break that aggro, as taking it via backstab happens rather often.

The attack issue is not a non-issue, and from my experience, not even one you can resolve with game mechanics. The problem with this build is that it is just too pure, and min/maxing Cun to this extent will result in a Rogue who has issues hitting bosses from any side, and most enemies from the front. The only real resolution is a redistribution of some of those stat points in order to boost your base attack rating. (or attack or attack power, or accuracy or whatever you want to call it)

Modifié par T0rin3, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:28 .

[T0rin3]

Scyles wrote...

How on earth could a pure Cunning rogue's hit rate be decent without investing any attribute points toward increasing attack rating?  A maxed-out Dexterity rogue would end up with around +35 or +40 attack rating over a pure Cunning rogue.  If a character with no points whatsoever invested toward accuracy can still hit enemies toward the end of the game, then something is badly wrong with the game's battle mechanics.  But, hey, I don't know, maybe you're right and enemies have no defense rating to speak of.

I suppose flanking and Coup de Grace contribute greatly toward "normalizing" such a character's accuracy, but isn't it rather impractical to assume the rogue will always be getting those bonuses?

It isn't decent. If they could just devote everything to damage and still be able to hit everything, the system would be broken. It isn't however, and they do suffer from a subpar attack score. In theory, many talents and game mechanics would make you think that it could be made a non-issue, but in the reality of the game, they only help, they certainly don't fix the problem.