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[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A simple dinner scene with Leandra and Hawke where they can talk -- though some may find it boring -- would help to establish that they're still a close family. Then after dinner Hawke could choose to warn her about Quentin. A.K.A the White Lily Killer. A.K.A the Kirkwall Killer.

What you're discussing is the presentation of a cutscene. While it might be nice for Hawke to chat with Leandra over dinner, the conversation you're referencing could just as easily occur when Hawke and Leandra are strolling through a garden or walking along a city street.

However, what I was referencing (and I suspect what Stanley was talking about) are in-game mechanics that require the PC to periodically eat or sleep. For example, in GTA: San Andreas, Carl had to ocassionally stop to eat or he would lose muscle mass. In Bully, the main character has to sleep every night or collapse from exhaustion.

The other poster said it would make for a more "believable reality" to include bowstrings. But if we're going strictly by what's presented on the screen, this is not a "believable reality" to begin with. It is in no way realistic for your Hawke to run for days — nay, weeks on end — without stopping to eat, drink, poop or sleep.

So, would it make the game a more "believable reality" to include mechanics that force the player to periodically stop to attend to basic needs? Sure. Would it make the game more fun? Christ no.

Fair enough.

though I still maintain that outside of cutscenes stuff like eating and sleeping could help the storytelling be better if used correctly.

Filament wrote...



However being that it's Kirkwall, a demon possessed hunk of poo does not seem entirely out of the realm of possibility.

That was in the game. It was called Act 3. Bazing!

[Stanley Woo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I actually remember a similar discussion that Stanley Woo took part in where I brought up something and he talked about eating and sleeping and he said -- IIRC -- that it would give little gain for something that took a bit of effort.

True. I've played games with hunger and food mechanics, and it always ended with me spending more time and effort in finding food or a safe place to rest than following the story. And that was only at the beginning of the game. At mid-game, you usually had enough money or stats to make food-finding trivial, and by endgame, those mechanics just became annoying. YMMV, of course.

But I disagreed in a way. As I said in my first sentence, it could be used to strengthen storytelling. A simple dinner scene with Leandra and Hawke where they can talk -- though some may find it boring -- would help to establish that they're still a close family.

Then after dinner Hawke could choose to warn her about Quentin. A.K.A the White Lily Killer. A.K.A the Kirkwall Killer.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with that, but you're talking about a conversation or cinematic, not a separate game mechanic. Your suggestion uses an already existing system--the conversation system, the same one used for all of the game's conversations--and would require character animation and camera tweaking, but you're right, it actually advances story and character.

A separate hunger/food/rest system that the player buys, makes or buys food for, clicks to eat/rest, and having hit points/fatigue/hunger "heal" over time (or immediately following a fade-out/fade-in) does not, in my opinion, advance story or character.

[bleetman]

Ooh, ooh, can we have a libido bar too?

...What? Don't look at me like that. Hawke has needs.

[TEWR]

Stanley Woo wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I actually remember a similar discussion that Stanley Woo took part in where I brought up something and he talked about eating and sleeping and he said -- IIRC -- that it would give little gain for something that took a bit of effort.

True. I've played games with hunger and food mechanics, and it always ended with me spending more time and effort in finding food or a safe place to rest than following the story. And that was only at the beginning of the game. At mid-game, you usually had enough money or stats to make food-finding trivial, and by endgame, those mechanics just became annoying. YMMV, of course.

But I disagreed in a way. As I said in my first sentence, it could be used to strengthen storytelling. A simple dinner scene with Leandra and Hawke where they can talk -- though some may find it boring -- would help to establish that they're still a close family.

Then after dinner Hawke could choose to warn her about Quentin. A.K.A the White Lily Killer. A.K.A the Kirkwall Killer.

Oh, there's nothing wrong with that, but you're talking about a conversation or cinematic, not a separate game mechanic. Your suggestion uses an already existing system--the conversation system, the same one used for all of the game's conversations--and would require character animation and camera tweaking, but you're right, it actually advances story and character.

A separate hunger/food/rest system that the player buys, makes or buys food for, clicks to eat/rest, and having hit points/fatigue/hunger "heal" over time (or immediately following a fade-out/fade-in) does not, in my opinion, advance story or character.

hmm... would it be possible for the player to make food, donate it to the poor of a city if he wants to, and have that have an effect on something in the story later on?

If not, then I see the points made by both you and thats1evildude and I change my stance to say that the added level of realism of food gathering would add probably wouldn't help anything.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

A separate hunger/food/rest system that the player buys, makes or buys food for, clicks to eat/rest, and having hit points/fatigue/hunger "heal" over time (or immediately following a fade-out/fade-in) does not, in my opinion, advance story or character.

You really didn't like the Baldur's Gate rest system?  The risk of ambush was wonderful.  The need to retreat to a safe place to do so really added to the sense of risk and, frankly, epic-ness.

A game like DA2 or even DAO (which, again, terrific) that has no rest mechanic and auto-regenerating health really does suffer by comparison.

[blothulfur]

You see this is why rpg's are largely becoming unsatisfactory for me, there are so many immersive elements being thrown away that the worlds no longer feel vibrant and changing. These little things that are derided as tiresome and ultimately pointless are what to me brings the gameworld alive, they offer such opportunity for good solid roleplaying as well.

Food and drink offer the chance to face privation and hardship thus adding to the trials a character endures to reach his goals while firmly anchoring him in the reality of the fantasy world. Sleep and dreams can be haunted by the antagonist, disturbed by thieves or any one of a dozen scenarios that are easily planned. Sparsity of coin and wealth can enhance the treasures that the protagonist does stumble upon thus making it all the more meaningful.

For me when too many of these elements are missing gameworlds feel stale and false, nothing more than theatres for your avatar to trot around in. In Ultima 4-7 I could just luxuriate in the flow of life and variety shifting around me, in a world that was worth saving because of its charm and detail. In Vizima I would laugh aloud at the Chaucerish ribaldry that assaulted my ears as I strolled along the cobbled streets and bathed in the scorn every man felt for the freak in their midst.

Take too many of these elements away and you're left with simplified combat and conversation simulators that I cannot lose myself in or find a reason to finish, it's too easy to see the joins and i'm thus jolted out of the experience.

[Chiramu]

Bowstrings can't be available in any RPG game because the bow then would need to be designed to be animated. When no other weapon is animated.
It would be a lot more complicated to to the animation of the bow and bowstring; because they string doesn't just move back. The bow moves with the string and that force is applied to the arrow.

Now, take the sword; that is easy, you just have the one picture for it. As with a staff or any other weapon.

It's not just Dragon Age that doesn't do bowstrings. It would be so bloody complicated to do this mechanic.

[Killjoy Cutter]

blothulfur wrote...

You see this is why rpg's are largely becoming unsatisfactory for me, there are so many immersive elements being thrown away that the worlds no longer feel vibrant and changing. These little things that are derided as tiresome and ultimately pointless are what to me brings the gameworld alive, they offer such opportunity for good solid roleplaying as well.

Food and drink offer the chance to face privation and hardship thus adding to the trials a character endures to reach his goals while firmly anchoring him in the reality of the fantasy world. Sleep and dreams can be haunted by the antagonist, disturbed by thieves or any one of a dozen scenarios that are easily planned. Sparsity of coin and wealth can enhance the treasures that the protagonist does stumble upon thus making it all the more meaningful.

For me when too many of these elements are missing gameworlds feel stale and false, nothing more than theatres for your avatar to trot around in. In Ultima 4-7 I could just luxuriate in the flow of life and variety shifting around me, in a world that was worth saving because of its charm and detail. In Vizima I would laugh aloud at the Chaucerish ribaldry that assaulted my ears as I strolled along the cobbled streets and bathed in the scorn every man felt for the freak in their midst.

Take too many of these elements away and you're left with simplified combat and conversation simulators that I cannot lose myself in or find a reason to finish, it's too easy to see the joins and i'm thus jolted out of the experience.

I agree with the general sentiment of your post.

[Atakuma]

Chiramu wrote...

Bowstrings can't be available in any RPG game because the bow then would need to be designed to be animated. When no other weapon is animated.
It would be a lot more complicated to to the animation of the bow and bowstring; because they string doesn't just move back. The bow moves with the string and that force is applied to the arrow.

Now, take the sword; that is easy, you just have the one picture for it. As with a staff or any other weapon.

It's not just Dragon Age that doesn't do bowstrings. It would be so bloody complicated to do this mechanic.

Bowstrings are available in several RPGs and it would be fine if they only animated the string and not the bow.

[Stanley Woo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You really didn't like the Baldur's Gate rest system?  The risk of ambush was wonderful.  The need to retreat to a safe place to do so really added to the sense of risk and, frankly, epic-ness.

At the time, yes, it was great, but back then a CRPG version of a game I played in PnP was a phenomenal concept. These days, however, my tastes have changed and I no longer find that sort of thing particularly fun. Necessary, at times, but not fun.

[caradoc2000]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The risk of ambush was wonderful.  The need to retreat to a safe place to do so really added to the sense of risk and, frankly, epic-ness.

The only thing it contributed to was a nagging sense of annoyance. If I want to cook or go to the toilet, I'll play Sims

[Apollo Starflare]

I must admit the lack of bowstrings (and weapon sheaths) irritates me. I quite like appropriately sized swords being sheathed at your hip as well actually.

Not the end of the world if it never makes it into the series though. *shrugs*

[Stanley Woo]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
hmm... would it be possible for the player to make food, donate it to the poor of a city if he wants to, and have that have an effect on something in the story later on?

Well, sure, most anything is possible to put into a game, but you have to weigh the pros and cons. With your latest suggestion here, you could very easily " make food, donate it to the poor of a city... and have that have an effect on something in the story later on" without ever using a hunger/food mechanic. It can all be done via a conversation screen or the kind of simple crafting system we already have in game.

Again, no separate system is needed since you can simulate the entire thing in existing systems. And that's what we do when new ideas crop up. The first thing we ask is: will it make for a better game? If so, then we would ask if it's possible to realize this idea using existing systems? If so, then we try to do that.

Want to simulate going into the sewers? Have a clickable door that starts a conversation, then do an area transition. BAM! You've just simulated door animations and climbing animations. Want to bake a cake? Have generic items and call them "recipe items." Once you have enough of them, click the "Make this recipe" button. BAM! You've just eliminated the need for special baking, mixing, and ingredient using animations, as well as the need for specific ingredient models and descriptions (yes, you'll probably still need a cake). Sure, having those actions visually displayed as you're playing is great, but if you don't have the zots or don't feel it's worth the effort, simulating the action works just as well.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

I must admit the lack of bowstrings (and weapon sheaths) irritates me. I quite like appropriately sized swords being sheathed at your hip as well actually.

Not the end of the world if it never makes it into the series though. *shrugs*

The "all weapons magically sticking to the back" thing is kinda... distracting...

[Stanley Woo]

blothulfur wrote...

You see this is why rpg's are largely becoming unsatisfactory for me, there are so many immersive elements being thrown away that the worlds no longer feel vibrant and changing. These little things that are derided as tiresome and ultimately pointless are what to me brings the gameworld alive, they offer such opportunity for good solid roleplaying as well.

Food and drink offer the chance to face privation and hardship thus adding to the trials a character endures to reach his goals while firmly anchoring him in the reality of the fantasy world. Sleep and dreams can be haunted by the antagonist, disturbed by thieves or any one of a dozen scenarios that are easily planned. Sparsity of coin and wealth can enhance the treasures that the protagonist does stumble upon thus making it all the more meaningful.

It really does depend on what kind of RPG you're looking to play. It sounds like you're more a fan of the simulation type of RPG, where you want the world and your character to simulate real life as much as possible. Others prefer more gamey types that are more action-oriented and less simulation.

The hypothetical situations you describe seem to be wanted not for the systems themselves, but for how they make you feel when you are in danger of not meeting requirements. Or they are story points that, really, are system-agnostic. The lack of food and drink being obstacles for the protagonist can be (and has been) done any number of ways, not just through lack of food. Heck, you want the protagonist to suffer through hunger or dehydration while overcoming obstacles? In this level, Otto Protagonista is hungry, explained by the opening cutscene as a time of famine and need. Because Otto is hungry like all his friends, family and neighbours, Otto has decreased stats for this level. BAM! Simulated hunger without the need for a separate system.

Want Otto to be haunted by dreams and omens? Games like Resident Evil, Silent Hill, and Fatal Frame have eerie atmospheres and use sound and music to increase fear and tension. Even Batman: Arkham Asylum was able to show dream states using creative level design, atmospheric effects and game physics, and camera effects, all without requiring a sleep/rest/dream mechanic. Want Otto's sleep to be disturbed by thieves, a damsel in distress, or a potential follower? Have Otto begin a cutscene by sleeping, then have someone run into the area. BAM! Simulated sleep. Just as movies don't show every detail of what characters do or how they move, so too can game actions be simulated to a certain extent.

Want Otto to struggle with money? Super easy! Reduce the amount of available coin and treasure in that area or jack up the prices! It doesn't necessarily have to be an entire system dedicated to that one "immersive" feature in order to appear in a game. What I've described above are just one way the things you love about simulation RPGs can be simulated in games that aren't necessarily simulation-type RPGs.

Heck, even the obvious dice-rolling and displaying of attack rolls and saving throws can be simulated or even hidden entirely! Depends on what kind of game the studio wants to make. So instead of mourning the death of the kinds of games you know you enjoy, why not check out some games which might be able to simulate those very things? The Elder Scrolls games seem to have very much of what you're looking for.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
You really didn't like the Baldur's Gate rest system?  The risk of ambush was wonderful.  The need to retreat to a safe place to do so really added to the sense of risk and, frankly, epic-ness.

At the time, yes, it was great, but back then a CRPG version of a game I played in PnP was a phenomenal concept. These days, however, my tastes have changed and I no longer find that sort of thing particularly fun. Necessary, at times, but not fun.

I continue to insist that the only thing CRPGs are supposed to do is recreate the PnP experience without the need for other people.

They used to strive for this.  Now they don't even seem to try.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

The hypothetical situations you describe seem to be wanted not for the systems themselves, but for how they make you feel when you are in danger of not meeting requirements. Or they are story points that, really, are system-agnostic. The lack of food and drink being obstacles for the protagonist can be (and has been) done any number of ways, not just through lack of food. Heck, you want the protagonist to suffer through hunger or dehydration while overcoming obstacles? In this level, Otto Protagonista is hungry, explained by the opening cutscene as a time of famine and need. Because Otto is hungry like all his friends, family and neighbours, Otto has decreased stats for this level. BAM! Simulated hunger without the need for a separate system.

That's a story point.  That's forced upon the player.

The goal isn't to be hungry.  The goal is to be in danger of going hungry, and avoiding hunger is a triumph.  If the hunger is story-based, and then the overcoming of hunger is story-based, then there's no triumph.  Success was inevitable as long as the player kept playing.

Want Otto to struggle with money? Super easy! Reduce the amount of available coin and treasure in that area or jack up the prices! It doesn't necessarily have to be an entire system dedicated to that one "immersive" feature in order to appear in a game. What I've described above are just one way the things you love about simulation RPGs can be simulated in games that aren't necessarily simulation-type RPGs.

What you've demonstrated is that you're missing the point.  The goal isn't to have the PC undergo hardship.  The goal is to have hardship be a constant threat.  Resource-management provides that.  Story cannot, because there's no threat.  The story points are written in stone.

There may well be ways other than resource management to provide these gameplay experiences - your point is well-taken - but the authored narrative doesn't do it.

[blothulfur]

I can understand what you're saying Stanley, creative methods of informing the player rather than brute mechanics, but as an aid to immersion show is always better than tell (i.e. Sten is a much better descriptor of the Qunari than the codex entry for them). Pull off those tricks too many times and the game becomes less believable and immersive, it's the little details and the obeyances of the in game reality that create the sense of place, for me at least

As for the simulation versus story, I want both. Action is just something to endure and hopefully enjoy if it's well made and i've focused on an action oriented character, but story and setting are the meat of the matter and my impact on the plot whether defeated or victorious.

I do like the name Otto Protagonista though.

[Realmzmaster]

Many of the conventions I like in past cRPGs have been removed because other gamers do not wish to game that way. Some believe it requires to much micromanagement and distracts from the fun. I like food and water requirements. You had to plan for any overland trip. It adds IMHO to the survival aspect. I like the ability to walk into a bank in a city. Medieval cities had banks.

Weight restrictions limited what you could wear and carry made sense. Carrying 15 suits of chainmail does not make sense. Resting made sense. You had to find a relative safe place to rest and set up security like glyphs of warning or detection.

Games like Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, Temple of Elemental Evil and as I have already mentioned Alternate Reality come to mind.

Other conventions in DAO and DA2 I do like such as the lack of spell memorization. I know others like that feature. So I can understand some gamers like the newer style more. I have been around long enough to play a variety of cRPGs. Certain ones remain on my hard drive even if I have to use DosBox or an emulator.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

The hypothetical situations you describe seem to be wanted not for the systems themselves, but for how they make you feel when you are in danger of not meeting requirements. Or they are story points that, really, are system-agnostic. The lack of food and drink being obstacles for the protagonist can be (and has been) done any number of ways, not just through lack of food. Heck, you want the protagonist to suffer through hunger or dehydration while overcoming obstacles? In this level, Otto Protagonista is hungry, explained by the opening cutscene as a time of famine and need. Because Otto is hungry like all his friends, family and neighbours, Otto has decreased stats for this level. BAM! Simulated hunger without the need for a separate system.

That's a story point.  That's forced upon the player.

The goal isn't to be hungry.  The goal is to be in danger of going hungry, and avoiding hunger is a triumph.  If the hunger is story-based, and then the overcoming of hunger is story-based, then there's no triumph.  Success was inevitable as long as the player kept playing.

Want Otto to struggle with money? Super easy! Reduce the amount of available coin and treasure in that area or jack up the prices! It doesn't necessarily have to be an entire system dedicated to that one "immersive" feature in order to appear in a game. What I've described above are just one way the things you love about simulation RPGs can be simulated in games that aren't necessarily simulation-type RPGs.

What you've demonstrated is that you're missing the point.  The goal isn't to have the PC undergo hardship.  The goal is to have hardship be a constant threat.  Resource-management provides that.  Story cannot, because there's no threat.  The story points are written in stone.

There may well be ways other than resource management to provide these gameplay experiences - your point is well-taken - but the authored narrative doesn't do it.

What we're seeing here is, perhaps, the Bioware dedication to "story" over game. 

The difference between The Other Sibling's fate during the fight with the Ogre being shown to us as story, and the fate of that Sibling being determined by the player's actions and/or skill. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Many of the conventions I like in past cRPGs have been removed because other gamers do not wish to game that way. Some believe it requires to much micromanagement and distracts from the fun. I like food and water requirements. You had to plan for any overland trip. It adds IMHO to the survival aspect. I like the ability to walk into a bank in a city. Medieval cities had banks.

Weight restrictions limited what you could wear and carry made sense. Carrying 15 suits of chainmail does not make sense. Resting made sense. You had to find a relative safe place to rest and set up security like glyphs of warning or detection.

Games like Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor, Temple of Elemental Evil and as I have already mentioned Alternate Reality come to mind.

Other conventions in DAO and DA2 I do like such as the lack of spell memorization. I know others like that feature. So I can understand some gamers like the newer style more. I have been around long enough to play a variety of cRPGs. Certain ones remain on my hard drive even if I have to use DosBox or an emulator.

Personally, I 100% prefer mana/power/stamina systems over spell-memorization systems.  The idea of spells being "memorized" and then "forgotten"/"expended" is silly in the extreme.

[TEWR]

hmmm... I guess I could live without a threat of going hungry being within the game, though I think that might be fun.

But I predict that I'd probably get annoyed by it. I despise things that feel monotonous and are annoying. So maybe it's for the best. For me anyway. Others may disagree.

However, I'd like for food to be used within the game. Star Ocean:Till the End of Time had a nice thing where food acted as something that could heal the characters, bestow beneficial effects, heal conditions, etc. However, it wasn't forced on the player to eat them, as there were other ways to restore health, MP, and heal conditions.

But one could still feel like they were regularly feeding their characters.

Maybe something like that should be implemented, as well as Bioware using cutscenes where the PC eats food in conjunction with other things. And maybe, if a place like the Hanged Man is made again, it could act as a central hub where all the companions go, talk about the player's decisions with one another, and eat and drink. Maybe even have the PC be able to order some food there as well and eat a few bites, fade to black, then return to the game.

Akin to getting a drink.

That seems like a nice way to go. I'd also like to see NPCs eat food.

[devSin]

Except that you don't have to ever feed them, and there's no way to tell if they're hungry. So you can pretend like they're eating when you want to pay attention to them eating (even though you know they're not eating and they actually never have to eat), and then you can ignore it when you realize that the mechanic of sustenance isn't any fun.

Open up dialog.tlk and change the Health Potion or whatever it's called string to "Steak and Potatoes". That seems to be the extent of what you're suggesting they do?

I don't think the tech is ready to have them show characters eating in any meaningful way. They already try with drinking, and they mostly fail IMO.

Modifié par devSin, 16 novembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[TEWR]

devSin wrote...

Except that you don't have to ever feed them, and there's no way to tell if they're hungry. So you can pretend like they're eating when you want to pay attention to them eating (even though you know they're not eating and they actually never have to eat), and then you can ignore it when you realize that the mechanic of sustenance isn't any fun.

Open up dialog.tlk and change the Health Potion or whatever it's called string to "Steak and Potatoes". That seems to be the extent of what you're suggesting they do?

they are eating. Just because I don't see them shove the food in their mouths doesn't mean that they aren't shoving the food into their mouths. And I've never ignored giving them food. As a matter of fact, food was the easiest way for me to heal them, and thus I always healed them through the use of food so they were always healed.

If I had no food, I would either buy more, buy some potions, or sleep at an inn. Either way, I was healed. 2 of those 3 allow for me to feed my characters, while the inn also allows for them to sleep. And the game also showed them sleeping in their beds a few times through cutscenes.

And no. More like have stuff beyond health potions.

So you could use the potions -- which Star Ocean also had -- or the food, but they are in your inventory.

[TEWR]

I like the idea drinking in cutscenes (and Fenris does this a couple times already),

Isabela does too now that I think about it. Still, drinking is all they do. 

 
but I don't think they'll be moving on to eating anytime soon. I think the limiter here is actually having what appears to be food consumed by a character. It's not enough to have a fork clip into a texture of what appears to be some sort of slop on a plate model by a stiff and rigid character model, and then an attempt to bring that fork (whose model never actually changes, despite supposedly coming away with food) to their mouth, have it clip into their face, and then come out, with a wooden facial expression because the facefx doesn't have a "Feed Me" setting, as the designer tries in vain to get it to mimic chewing (swallow is out of the question because the neck won't animate).

You don't have to see the actual person chewing. It could just show the back of the body as they stab their food and eat it.

Question though: would one be able to motion capture eating? Or do what CGI movies like Shrek did, assuming that was all created through computers and no motion capture was involved? Though I doubt it and understand that it's not the same thing as making a video game.

I'm not really sure how to phrase my question, as I'm not savvy to game design and CGI movie design, but I hope I'm clear enough with what I want to ask.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 novembre 2011 - 04:22 .