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[I Like Cats And]

Here's my dilema.... I'm doing my mega-canon and have layed out just about all my decisions except one.

I'm trying to decide whether to take Bethany down with me to the Deep Roads (where she will die) or to have her join the Circle of Magi. On one hand you get a Hawke who has lost ALL of his close family with only his LI as a companion which seems cooler knowing he eventually rises up and becomes an epic hero........or you get to enjoy the company of Bethany (something I actually value, that wasn't sarcasm).

So people you guys should make some points to sway me. Also let's discuss other moral dilemas.

[Nightwriter]

What moral dilemmas?

Personally, I think losing a father, a sibling, and a mother is quite enough tragedy; intentionally killing off your remaining sibling, who is going to be taken away from you anyway, seems like going a bit overboard. Hawke already has plenty of tragedies to overcome without this. If you kill her you are robbing yourself of content just to attain something which is achieved regardless.

[I Like Cats And]

Nightwriter wrote...

What moral dilemmas?

Personally, I think losing a father, a sibling, and a mother is quite enough tragedy; intentionally killing off your remaining sibling, who is going to be taken away from you anyway, seems like going a bit overboard. Hawke already has plenty of tragedies to overcome without this. If you kill her you are robbing yourself of content just to attain something which is achieved regardless.

What content specifically?

[CrimsonZephyr]

I Like Cats And wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

What moral dilemmas?

Personally, I think losing a father, a sibling, and a mother is quite enough tragedy; intentionally killing off your remaining sibling, who is going to be taken away from you anyway, seems like going a bit overboard. Hawke already has plenty of tragedies to overcome without this. If you kill her you are robbing yourself of content just to attain something which is achieved regardless.

What content specifically?

Using her in DLC and in the endgame.

[Nightwriter]

Her appearance at the end of Act 2, Meredith attempting to hold her as leverage over you in Act 3, her part as hostage when Grace turns psycho on you, her participation in the Act 3 finale, her participation in Legacy and Mark of the Assassin.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Well, you could always leave her behind so she has to join the Circle, then side with the Templars, and when Meredith is like "Yeah, your sister's a mage... " then you can be like "Yep, she dies." I actually did that on my Templar playthrough, then decided nooooooo she can't betray her sister like that, so I reloaded the save game just before that and told Meredith she can't kill my sister.

Your other option, one I am doing on my next playthrough, take her to the deep roads but ALSO take Anders.  Then, Anders will make her a Grey Warden.  She still leaves, but she comes back later as a Grey Warden, so she's available for all the extra stuff.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 14 novembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[I Like Cats And]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Well, you could always leave her behind so she has to join the Circle, then side with the Templars, and when Meredith is like "Yeah, your sister's a mage... " then you can be like "Yep, she dies." I actually did that on my Templar playthrough, then decided nooooooo she can't betray her sister like that, so I reloaded the save game just before that and told Meredith she can't kill my sister.

Your other option, one I am doing on my next playthrough, take her to the deep roads but ALSO take Anders.  Then, Anders will make her a Grey Warden.  She still leaves, but she comes back later as a Grey Warden, so she's available for all the extra stuff.

I ruled out the making her a Warden route cause she's pretty unhappy about it.

[Nightwriter]

Now now, Cats. If we started worrying over trifles like characters' happiness we'd have to go around offering Gamlen a fraction of our wealth and pretending we care that Leliana is worried that being an assassin/spy/sex murderer might mean her soul isn't beautiful.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I Like Cats And wrote...

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Well, you could always leave her behind so she has to join the Circle, then side with the Templars, and when Meredith is like "Yeah, your sister's a mage... " then you can be like "Yep, she dies." I actually did that on my Templar playthrough, then decided nooooooo she can't betray her sister like that, so I reloaded the save game just before that and told Meredith she can't kill my sister.

Your other option, one I am doing on my next playthrough, take her to the deep roads but ALSO take Anders.  Then, Anders will make her a Grey Warden.  She still leaves, but she comes back later as a Grey Warden, so she's available for all the extra stuff.

I ruled out the making her a Warden route cause she's pretty unhappy about it.

Yeah, you get -15 but if you care about her you should by that time already be maxed friendship so it doesn't matter... and as for her not wanting to be a Grey Warden... She's not really afraid to die, but she's not thinking at the time about her brother/sister... I mean could you just let your brother/sister die if there was a chance to save their life?    I mean if she was going to be a vegetable if you let her live, then yeah let her die... but she's not she will get a pretty good life, just will have to actually USE her magic and she'll be protected from the Templars (in theory at least)...   I think overall it's a case of she might not be happy about it, but in the long run I think she'd rather not be dead.  Doesn't mean she's not annoyed about being forced to be a grey warden.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 14 novembre 2011 - 06:36 .

[Virginian]

The only choice I have ever considered with Bethany was let her join the Circle or the Grey Wardens.

She prefers the Circle, so that is where I let her go most of the time.

[jamesp81]

I usually send her to the Circle just because she's miserable as a Warden. She's never been the gung ho idealist that Anders is (or my Hawkes are) so going there and swallowing the Chantry line isn't too traumatic for her even if I find her willingness to wear the Circle's chains a bit disturbing.

On the flip side, I always make Carver a grey warden. He is a gung ho badass at heart, and slaying monsters and bragging about it suits him.

OP, I think Hawke has lost enough and doesn't need to lose the last of his family just to create drama. 

Modifié par jamesp81, 14 novembre 2011 - 03:41 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@jamesp81 - I don't know that Bethany is so much willing to "wear the Circle's chains" as she is able to simply adapt. There's trauma with both routes, but perhaps she sees the wardens as a certain death sentence, a life more dictated by others than what the Circle may enforce. In the Circle at least, she is surrounded by other mages, can share her experiences, and is able to accept that magic is a part of her life & something to embrace. I think therein is where her contentment lies - acceptance of her identity (and seeing it as derivative of the Maker).

@OP - For my canon Hawke, Bethany is left at home during the expedition. Knowing all of the options, it felt like the best route to take. Bethany's life is not ideal, and we have yet to see what the events of act 3 will mean for both Hawke and her sibling, but I think (my) Hawke benefits from having her around. It personalizes the decisions made in-game, and there's something endearing about having the Hawke-Amell sisters (per my canon) fighting side by side in the end battle.

[Arthur Cousland]

Bethany doesn't seem to mind the Circle so much, at least according to her letter. She breezes through her Harrowing, becomes a senior enchanter and takes on apprentices, and seems at peace since she's no longer always on the run from the templars.

I also like Carver as a grey warden. It was nice seeing him rejoin Hawke during The Last Straw because he didn't want to lose the last of his family. From what I hear of him in the templars, Carver remains a ******.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:41 .

[Virginian]

IMO her accepting the Circle so easily seems to be a slap in the face to her family after all the sacrifices they made to keep her out.

I think I will make her miserable the next time I get to that point. Besides Grey Wardes are a lot cooler than slaves.

Modifié par Virginian, 14 novembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[Virginian]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

If she's a Grey Warden, she's stuck in the Order for life

I think Anders would have something to say about that.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Being a Grey Warden when there's no Blight is a pretty miserable life. And the Taint is permanent.

[thats1evildude]

Virginian wrote...

I think Anders would have something to say about that.

You mean that mage who's spent a decade hiding like a rat in Darktown?

[Herr Uhl]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Being a Grey Warden when there's no Blight is a pretty miserable life. And the Taint is permanent.

And being one during a blight is worse.

[thats1evildude]

Herr Uhl wrote...

And being one during a blight is worse.

Eh … sort of.

OK, sure, it sucks that you might have to to give your life to slay the Archdemon. But only one Grey Warden need make that sacrifice. While a Blight is still on, the threat the darkspawn pose is very real and palpable, and every Grey Warden is a hero and a champion against evil.

When there isn't a Blight, the threat of the darkspawn seems distant. There's nothing for the Grey Wardens to do except remain vigilant and make the occassional raid into the Deep Roads. It might be a necessary duty, but it's not particularly glorious. While they might be accorded some respect, the Wardens are just a military order with dire predictions of doom and gloom, predictions that become more hollow as the centuries wear on.

It might be a necessary duty, but it's not particularly glorious.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 novembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[Herr Uhl]

thats1evildude wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

And being one during a blight is worse.

Eh … sort of.

OK, sure, it sucks that you might have to to give your life to slay the Archdemon. But only one Grey Warden need make that sacrifice. While a Blight is still on, the threat the darkspawn pose is very real and palpable, and every Grey Warden is a hero and a champion against evil.

When there isn't a Blight, the threat of the darkspawn seems distant. The Grey Wardens are just a military order with dire predictions of doom and gloom. There's nothing for them to do except remain vigilant and make the occassional raid into the Deep Roads.

It might be a necessary duty, but it's not particularly glorious.

So how bad it is depends on how people outside your order percieve you? The chances to get killed are way higher during a blight, and on top of that everything around you is pretty crappy.

I very much disagree. But would this also mean that it is worse to be a soldier in peacetime and only be sent out to scant UN operations and such than to have your nation under siege with people dying all around you?

[thats1evildude]

Let's say you're a firefighter. One summer, there's no rain, and you're constantly busy fighting fires. You've saved peoples' homes and even rescued a few people from burning buildings. You get a lot of accolades for your heroism.

Then, for the next several years, the summers are all wet, and there's no fires to fight. You spend all your time sitting around the firehouse waiting for something to do. You try to educate people about fire prevention, but your warnings ring hollow after a time. You know that it's important stay vigilant in case there's a fire, but at the same time, you can't help but feel kind of useless.

That's sort of what being a Grey Warden is like when there isn't a Blight, except they also have to deal with nightmares of the Archdemon, reduced fertility and a shortened lifespan. I'm not saying the Wardens welcome Blights, but their order only becomes relevant when the darkspawn are a threat.

Also, between the crushing poverty, constant wars and the threat of otherworldly monsters, life on Thedas is pretty cheap. If your life is likely to be short, then why not sell it battling against an ancient evil that threatens all life on the continent?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 novembre 2011 - 08:30 .

[Inanna Athanasia]

I have done all 3, killed her, make her a warden and let her go to the circle. My favorite is the warden. She is there for all the DLC, which I liked her alot in Legacy as a warden and in the final battle, she finds you and realize she was wrong to be angry with you for saving her life and will fight with you (if you choose) from Lowtown on. She's a powerful mage to have in your party during the lead up to the final battle, especially at the docks.

I am really big on playing all aspects of any game, so I had to try all 3, just to know, but after that, anytime I play it now I always make her a warden, but I may be a bit bias as my warden from origins is one of my all time favorite video game characters I have ever played.

[AlexXIV]

thats1evildude wrote...

Let's say you're a firefighter. One summer, there's no rain, and you're constantly busy fighting fires. You've saved peoples' homes and even rescued a few people from burning buildings. You get a lot of accolades for your heroism.

Then, for the next several years, the summers are all wet, and there's no fires to fight. You spend all your time sitting around the firehouse waiting for something to do. You try to educate people about fire prevention, but your warnings ring hollow after a time. You know that it's important stay vigilant in case there's a fire, but at the same time, you can't help but feel kind of useless.

That's sort of what being a Grey Warden is like when there isn't a Blight, except they also have to deal with nightmares of the Archdemon, reduced fertility and a shortened lifespan. I'm not saying the Wardens welcome Blights, but their order only becomes relevant when the darkspawn are a threat.

Also, between the crushing poverty, constant wars and the threat of otherworldly monsters, life on Thedas is pretty cheap. If your life is likely to be short, then why not sell it battling against an ancient evil that threatens all life on the continent?

That's a common misconception about Grey Wardens. They are not useless either. Things is just when there is no Blight people are not willing to go to the Deep Roads to look for Darkspawn. So they don't get many recruits and the Grey Wardens don't force the issue because they would only get trouble with the surface nations. But it doesn't mean that a Grey Warden is unemployed after the Blight.

People also argue that the Warden's story is over because the Blight is over. But we can see in Awakenings it is not over, and there is much to do still. Not only on the surface. The Warden could go to the deep roads and look for clues. Ancient cities, ancient knowledge, ancient evils. Grey Wardens are basically like the Dead Legion of Orzammar. They never stop fighting, just people on the surface don't notice, or care after Blights.

Granted, rebuilding the world after one of the big Blights is probably enough to be busy with, so it can even be understood that it happened in the past. This time around though the Blight only hit Ferelden, so there is more then enough reason to go after the Darkspawn to see that maybe other Blights can be prevented once and for all.

Unlike fires, Darkspawn have not always existed, and there may be a way to stop them from breaking out ever again.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 14 novembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[thats1evildude]

AlexXIV wrote...

They never stop fighting, just people on the surface don't notice, or care after Blights.

Which is exactly my point.

A Grey Warden who fights the darkspawn and helps end the Blight is hero of song and legend. The Grey Warden who stays on watch and ocassionally ventures into the Deep Roads to skirmish with the darkspawn? Not so much.

The point I'm trying to stress here is that joining the Wardens is kind of a sh**ty deal, but that sacrifice is a lot more worthwhile when the darkspawn pose an actual threat to the surface.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 novembre 2011 - 09:46 .