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[Obadiah]

I find the idea of a non government military group operating in secret and outside the law intriguing. Cerberus, as presented in ME2, seems completely preposterous. We already know that they have 2 huge space stations and at least one cutting edge warship emblazoned with their logo. In the present day, that would be like an international mercenary group having a campus and its own aircraft carrier or nuclear submarine.

What do you think internets? Do you think there are rogue secret non-government groups operating out there with only tangential connections to some nation state?

Is Cerberus even based on something from the current state of the world, or from history back when the world still had an actual unknown frontier?

[Raven4030]

Obadiah wrote...

What do you think internets? Do you think there are rogue secret non-government groups operating out there with only tangential connections to some nation state?

Yes, there are. They're generally called "terrorists".

[BentOrgy]

Too easy. X3

[C9316]

The Illuminati.

[DiebytheSword]

I think that the original idea of cerberus was closer to the mark. Blackest of black and barely aknowledged or known about. I can think of two military outfits that are like that in the US alone, and probably another two if I can go with flimsier evidence.

As far as a private organization like that, not one for ideology, but definately more than one for cash. Certain private security firms are made of old black ops commandos.

[Bogsnot1]

Blackwater 

[DiebytheSword]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Blackwater 

That was one that was bumping around in my head, but far from the only one.

[Bullets McDeath]

It is not explicitly mentioned in the game, and some of the costume designers seem to have overlooked it, and most characters who mention it seem to know the real meaning, but TECHNICALLY, for what it's worth, "Cerberus" does not have a logo. What is commonly referred to as the Cerberus logo is actually an emblem for Cord-Hislop Aerospace, a ship manufacturer that is (apparently not very-)secretly a Cerberus front.

Which would be slick and fit with their top secret status, if it had been executed properly. Instead, everyone who sees it immediately knows it means Cerberus, and Cerberus officers have it on their uniform for some damn reason? Whatevs. THE MORE YOU KNOW!, etc.

[Obadiah]

@Raven4030 I suspect that pre-911 certain terrorist organizations were functionally similar to the way Cerberus is in ME2, but the term "terrorist" just seems too tied to the act to be a useful description. What Cerberus is doing is certainly illegal, unethical, and horrific, but they have committed only one "terrorist" act that I know of and that is against the Quarians.

@DiebytheSword That was my understanding of them in ME1 "blackest of the black." They do not seem as unknown in ME2 but I figured Shep was mostly interacting with shady black-ops/security types who are in the know on such things.

@Bogsnot1 I had that in mind as well, but they seem too public (owner on 60 Minutes etc..) for me to use them as an analogy. I suppose, though, a Cerberus type organization would necessarily have to have some public front in the real world to explain their activities. If they kept a low enough profile otherwise, who knows what they could be up to? I could kind of say that about any large military contractor, though.

@outlaworacle Didn't know that. Well, that makes me feel a little better about the ME2 plot. Is that in a Codex entry or something?

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 novembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[Bogsnot1]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Blackwater 

That was one that was bumping around in my head, but far from the only one.

I figured it would be best for my health to only mention the one that everyone knows, and already has enough bad press.  
Some, while legally grey, or even black, can be morally white at times. Blackwater is not one of those.

[Rifneno]

Short answer: No.

There's comparisons to terrorist organizations, but Cerberus is not a terrorist organization.  I don't mean that in the sense that they're better; they're definitely not.  While I've had enough arguments over the definition of "terrorist" to last about 74 lifetimes over on the DA2 board, I think Cerberus can't fall under that category because they're a so-called secret organization.  Terrorists try to control people's actions by inciting extreme fear in the public.  "Do things my way, believe in my god, or I'll chop your head off and rape your family."  Cerberus doesn't do that generally.  I haven't read the books unfortuantely (need more hours in the day please!) so I don't know what happened with the Migrant Fleet... but by and large, Cerberus doesn't do terrorism.  Again, I don't mean that in the morality of their deeds, only their methods.  Cerberus is more of a mad scientist than a terrorist.  I think it's actually in that respect that they most resemble the n--err, 1940s Germany.  It's not mentioned much in history lessons because so much more important happened during WWII, but those guys tried some real Wile E. Coyote cartoon weapons plans.

Illuminati?  Oh, definitely no.  There's two problems with that comparison.  The Illuminati supposedly pull the strings on pretty much everything.  Cerberus, while powerful, is nowhere near that.  More importantly... "real life."  Anyone who thinks the Illuminati are real should talk to a therapist.  I don't generally judge people believing in "crazy" things.  UFOs, ghosts, sea monsters, the Bermuda Triangle, a good Pauly Shore movie... that's fine.  But Illuminati is absurd even among amongst those types of things.

Of course, if an organization such as Cerberus DID exist, we wouldn't know it.  Part of the whole "secret organization" thing.

[Sidac]

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Blackwater 

lol funny enough my friend owns the land that their new headquarters is on in north carolina. They renamed themselves Xe.

Modifié par Sidac, 15 novembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[Raven4030]

Cerberus's track record includes:

Stealing anti-matter (which, in addition to power generation, is very handy for a bomb)
Assassinating a pope to install one more in line with their ideals
Assassinating political leaders to be more in line with their ideals
Setting up biotic death-camps with which to conduct experiments
Killing high-ranking military officers who "know too much"

A group that does things like the above pretty well fits my definition of "terrorist". If you use a different word for it, well, we're really just quibbling over semantics at that point.

[Obadiah]

Cerberus has been declared a terrorist organization in the ME universe, but I think the term "terrorist" is just too broad to be useful when making an analogy to some present day or historic organization. A single person (like the Unabomber) can be a terrorist, and be nothing like Cerberus (a rogue secret paramilitary organization supported and used by members of the Alliance military).

Modern terrorist organizations (IRA, Basque Separatists, Black September, Al Qaeda, etc...) claim responsibility for acts and give their agenda, lest more acts follow. Is Cerberus doing that, or do they just commit heinous acts (murder, torture, human/alien experimentation) to further their agenda in secret?

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 novembre 2011 - 09:10 .

[Rifneno]

Raven4030 wrote...

Cerberus's track record includes:

Stealing anti-matter (which, in addition to power generation, is very handy for a bomb)
Assassinating a pope to install one more in line with their ideals
Assassinating political leaders to be more in line with their ideals
Setting up biotic death-camps with which to conduct experiments
Killing high-ranking military officers who "know too much"

A group that does things like the above pretty well fits my definition of "terrorist". If you use a different word for it, well, we're really just quibbling over semantics at that point.

Odd.  I thought "they're different only in methods, not morality" was pretty clear.  I keep forgetting some people think "terrorist" means "does a lot of very bad things."  Volcanos, for instance, are clearly terrorists.

[Obadiah]

Leaders and law enforcement use the term "terrorist" loosely to demonize, gather support against, and trigger the harshest and broadest laws against certain criminal groups. Given the nature of said group's actions, I can't say I blame law enforcement, but it makes conversation kind of ambiguous.

Cerberus is basically a massive criminal enterprise with an agenda. Organized crime (hmmm... again, a very broad term) is the only thing that comes close in my opinion. In certain parts of the world they have very strong ties to governments.

Modifié par Obadiah, 15 novembre 2011 - 03:34 .

[Reorte]

I very much doubt that Cerberus would be above terrorism if for some reason it seemed like the best way to achieve their goals but they're not terrorists for the reasons already given by others. Doesn't make them any better mind you.

[DeathScepter]

Cerberus is guilty of many things but none of the Council races are purely innocent either. I won't be surprised that they have their dirty secrets as well.

[Raven4030]

I stand by my original viewpoint, but I'm unwilling to get into a big debate over how to classify bad guys. I vastly underestimated how strongly some people feel about this...

[Sealy]

Plus yah here on earth having a campus/air craft/ect, would be bad, easily found, eventually. But, in Mass Effect they have no limits to area, you can scan "over there" forever and not find anything, there big, but their area and space (pun unavoidable) is bigger so in portion all the things they have is propably fairly undercover.

[Obadiah]

@Fleshdress This is true. That is why I was thinking it would be better to find an organization from history, back when there was a great unknown frontier where labs, campuses, monasteries, etc... could be hidden. Heck, way back in the 50s it was like that before we had all of he satellites. Plus, we'd have the benefit of hindsight and archeological/historical research.

Now that I think about it, pirates and privateers sort of fit the bill, though they were not pariah's in their home country.

[Gespenst]

It doesn't even compare. Space is big. Really big. There is no point in our history that we had explored as little of the earth as all the Citadel and non-Citadel races have of the universe by the time of Mass Effect. You think it's a long way to the shops? That's peanuts compared to space.

They've got more money than god and the entire galaxy to work with. I'm more surprised with how many of their bases have been found.

Modifié par Gespenst, 16 novembre 2011 - 02:49 .

[We are]

Odd. I thought "they're different only in methods, not morality" was pretty clear. I keep forgetting some people think "terrorist" means "does a lot of very bad things." Volcanos, for instance, are clearly terrorists.

Volcanoes do terrorize so yes they are a terrorist.