13 réponses à ce sujet

[SkittlesKat96]

Not so sure if I'm meant to post this here but I will anyway.

Do you guys think that the best outcome for DA:O is to have Alistair hardened and make him marry Queen Anora and become king AND allow Loghain to live and become a Grey Warden?

All my friends irl disagree with this and so have a lot of people over youtube and other websites that I've seen.

I think this is more beneficial because:
1. Alistair is arguably a much better king when he is hardened (not in the literal sense...)

2. Alistair is still king and Anora is the queen, and from what we've seen and heard Anora is a very capable ruler (although the child birth thing is a bit of a problem.)

3. Without metagaming its a logical choice role playing wise because you need all the Grey Wardens you can get for stopping the Darkspawn. If DA:O was real and I was the Grey Warden then I wouldn't squander that opportunity. Justice is important but the Darkspawn are more important.

Also you should note how skilled and useful Loghain is, iirc he becomes the Grey Warden recruiter after the Blight (if you allow him to live and not sacrifice himself to stop the Archdemon.) Loghain would serve the Grey Wardens very well.

If any of you have read the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series then you would know about the Night's Watch and the Others, if somebody of high rank does something bad then they could (in most cases I assume) join the Night's Watch to serve the wall and protect Westoros.

4. Becoming a Grey Warden is still a punishment and a sacrifice. Loghain lost all his titles, privileges and pretty much near everything becoming a Grey Warden. I could be wrong but even when there isn't a blight going on the Grey Wardens probably have important tasks to do (relating to the Darkspawn and the Deep Roads of course.)

5. What Loghain did was arguably not an extremely evil/vile thing to do...it was a terrible thing what he did but if you've looked at all the lore, and all the game content and writing about Loghain you'll see that he has slight justification and reasoning for what he did.

I'm not saying that not doing the above is wrong or anything, as we can see keeping Loghain alive or executing him doesn't change much (at least from what we can see so far) and there are a lot of negatives about this (justice and setting an example to others for example) but still, just something to think about.

EDIT: Another thing to think about is whether being a Grey Warden is an honor or not.

Some might think that making Loghain a Grey Warden is too merciful and it isn't a true punishment and like Alistair says you are 'cheapening' the Grey Wardens.

It is a little bit of a complicated choice, and it all depends on your values I suppose (justice, mercy, forgiveness, etc.)

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 14 novembre 2011 - 08:56 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I agree with you. Loghain did what he thought was best for his country. Really I put him and Bhelen in the same boat. The ends justify the means for them. Bhelen is an underhanded backstabbing overall bad guy GETTING the throne, but once he has it? He truly does what is in my opinion best for Orzammar's future.  Harrowmont might be honorable and good, but he's too old school and overall just a complete moron that doesn't even want the job in the first place, except that he made a promise to his best friend not to let Bhelen have the throne.

Loghain made some very bad decisions, but his intent was pure. Remember the saying, The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions. Loghain followed that road to Hell. He didn't know WHY Grey Wardens were so important because it's kept a secret, so he figured they were just VERY VERY skilled warriors. Once he found out that they truly were ESSENTIAL to the future of his beloved Ferelden, that's why I think he became the top recruiter because it was his love of and Thedas that he realized the Grey Wardens were not just skilled warriors, but truly the first and last line of defense vs. the darkspawn.

Plus you find out in Return to Ostagar that Cailan was cheating on Anora and was even making deals to ditch Anora and marry the Orlesian Empress.  Loghain suspected this, but had no proof, but if he's with you on Return to Ostagar he gets that proof and his betrayal of Cailan becomes 100% justified to him, and that's why he says you should throw Cailan to the wolves, he doesn't deserve a proper burial.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 14 novembre 2011 - 09:07 .

[jamesp81]

I prefer the ending where Alistair marries the female human noble Warden and becomes king. Loghain can't be trusted after what he's done. Letting him live and join the wardens, assuming he survives, invites trouble down the road. He has the support of at least some of the nobles (although the Bannorn doesn't seem to like him at all) and having him still around later on is an invitation to renewed civil war.

Loghain had good motivations but his methods nearly cost Ferelden the war. If he had a quarrel with Cailan, he should've taken it up with him after the darkspawn had been defeated. A man with that big of a lack of foresight should not be leading armies in battle.

Let's assume Loghain's worst fears were correct. Let's assume that the Chevaliers of Orlais march with Ferelden's armies and the darkspawn are defeated at Ostagar. Let's further assume the Orlesians refuse to leave; they have done just such a thing before (Second Blight, IIRC). Leading a war against Orlais is about as hopeless as leading a war against the Blight and at least with the Orlesians, defeat doesn't mean genocide.

No, the man nearly cost Ferelden the war and he can't be trusted. I also would not presume to deny Alistair justice for the murder of the only father he ever knew, especially not just hours after my human noble avenged herself on Rendon Howe for the same thing.

Yes, I know metagaming tells me that a less negative result comes if you let him live, but the OP indicated "no metagaming".

[maxernst]

If you're roleplaying, several of your points fall apart:

1 &2 depend on the metagame knowledge that you can keep Alistair from buggering off if you harden him and marry him to Anora. 

3. Riordan gives you no explanation for why having more wardens is so important, and if you haven't hardened Alistair and married him to Anora, you will lose Alistair if you try to recruit Loghain, reducing the number of wardens. And Loghain might
1) Die in the joining in which case you'll have fewer Wardens
2) Murder you in your sleep to "save" Ferelden from the Orlesians. If you've read a Song of Ice and Fire, you ought to remember that recruiting people who aren't on board with the cause comes back to bite the Night Watch in a big way.

Also, from a strict RP perspective, if you want Alistair to be King, doesn't it look better if he's the one in the duel?  Fighting his battles for him and then defying his will as king-to-be strikes me as making him look weak.

I do think Alistair and Anora ruling together is the best outcome from Ferelden, but that's purely from a metagaming perspective.  And from an outcome point of view, it really doesn't matter if Loghain or the Warden is the sacrifice, so whether you spare Loghain or not makes no real difference.

Modifié par maxernst, 15 novembre 2011 - 01:14 .

[Ferretinabun]

The question is who you want the best ending FOR. Redemption for Loghain is obviously better than an ignoble execution. But neither Alistair nor Anora really WANT to marry each other. They would both be happier if he stayed a Grey Warden and she ruled alone, and neither ever make a secret of this. And Alistair, of course, wants Loghain's blood.
If you thinking about what is best for Ferelden as a whole, then probably yes, your scenario is probably the best outcome. The marriage ensures that maximum number of happy nobles (and therefore fewer potential civil wars over who should rule), and the combination of Anora's political know-how and Alistair's common touch seems to provide the best recipe for government. But for the actual people involved, this was merely a compromise situation, not their ideal outcome.

[Urzon]

I personally think that the hardened Alistair king ruling with Anora, and Loghain as a Grey Warden is the best outcome as well. It has been said that Anora was a capable ruler when she was with Cailan (some even said she was the actually ruler then), and with the hardened Alistair; you get a king that relates and talks to the people. That is having your cake and eating it too situation.

I almost always turn Loghain into a Grey Warden, no matter how much it pisses off Alistair. Because lets face it, Loghain is much more Grey Warden material than Alistair ever was. He embodies: the whole "do anything to win" attitude that the Grey Wardens are about, he is an excellent warrior, awesome commander, and he hates Orlaisians with a passion.

Well... Maybe not the last one.

They true justice in the situation is what you find out in DAA. Other than turning Loghain into a Grey Warden (a member of a group he hates), you find out that the First Warden is sending Loghain too... wait for it... Orlais, because he says Loghain has to many political ties and he migth try and play puppeteer. I don't think you can get a sweeter revenge than that.

I always picture my Warden rubbing his hands together (and laughing evilly) after penning the letter to the First Warden asking for that transfer.

The only thing that can make that situation better is if Loghain and Carver team up and get a comic about their adventures together.

Modifié par Urzon, 15 novembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[Davillo]

I think that the best outcome is Alistair is hardened become king, Loghain dies (Even though I really liked him in the books) I just could not let him live. Anora goes to the tower lol. Mage warden becomes hero of ferelden.But some of the things you guys said about Loghain living would also be cool to see if future if they take that path.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

One of my playthroughs I recruited Loghain, had Alistair executed (he was something like "how can you do this to me after all we've been through together? and I was like "Be a man for once, Alistair" ROFL)

As I said before, Loghain did what he did because he thought it was for the betterment of his country. Was he wrong? Possibly. Who's to say that the darkspawn might not have killed all of his troops too and then moved on? Sure, maybe less Darkspawn, but... what if that caused the Archdemon to show up sooner than he did because he saw the huge threat the mortals are?

Plus, as I said before, Calian was cheating on Anora and about to hand Ferelden back over to Orlais (let's face it, the Empress isn't wanting to marry Calian because he's cute or she heard at the salon he's good in bed... she wants to rule Ferelden again and marriage to a stupid puppet king is the way to do it.)

[Gervaise]

My first three wardens were Dalish elf, elf mage, and City Elf, so after what he did in the alienage, letting Loghain live was never going to be an option for them.

However, my 4th warden was a noble and took a rather different line. He never had alot of respect for Alistair after the latter kept going on and on about Duncan, a man he had known for less than a year, when my noble had lost his entire family and yet when he says he wants to look for his brother, Alistair barely gives it a thought. As the last member (so far as he is aware) of the second most important family in Ferelden after the king, he naturally starts to consider who should replace Loghain and considers he would be a much better candidate than Alistair, who admits he doesn't even want it.

So he strikes a deal with Anora and gets to chatting with her about her father's motivations. As a result he begins to sympathise with her view that "the tragedy is he really does think he is doing the best for Ferelden". As a result, when she asks if he can in some way be spared, my Cousland noble thinks it is a possibility. Then when Riordan suggests making him a Grey Warden, he follows the same logic and the OP. The more Grey Wardens the better. Even though Alistair leaves in a hissy fit, he is still a Grey Warden, so if the other 3 fell in battle, there is always the possibility he could step back in.

This Warden took the trouble to try and get to know Loghain and earns his respect, so when Riordan tells them of the sacrifice, Loghain tells the Warden that if anything happens to Riordan, he is willing to take this. Then Morrigan makes her offer and my Warden instead of turning her down flat, gives Loghain the option of saving himself with the dark ritual and Loghain begs him not to make him do it. At the end he bids the Warden farewell with the words that he knows he is leaving Ferelden in good hands.

So that ending has the archdemon defeated, Loghain redeemed in his own eyes and that of the people, my Warden and Anora on the throne (and apparently they make a good job of ruling) and Morrigan and Flemeth foiled in their attempts to create an old god baby. The only one unhappy is Alistair but from the point of view of Ferelden, probably the best result. Lets face it, Maric's offspring didn't really live up to their father's reputation and Eamon was wrong in thinking that it was more important putting a Therin on the throne than their ability to rule. One wonders how much he knew about Cailan's plan to replace Anora with Celene.

Of course my other Wardens would not agree with this assessment of the merits of sparing Loghain. One put Alistair on the throne with Anora, one put Alistair on the throne alone and one put Anora on the throne because she was in love with Alistair and being an elf mage, she couldn't be queen. The problem with any of these scenarios is that unless the Warden makes the ultimate sacrifice (or Alistair does) then Morrigan gets her old god baby - which I can't help thinking will not be good in the long run.

[Davillo]

Alistar is a good warrior lol he dueled and killed Loghain no problems so common.

[Plaintiff]

What it comes down to for me is that Loghain is a bag of dicks who's been trying to have me killed for like a year. I can't trust the man with a cup of coffee, so hy the **** wuld I trust him with an entire country?

No, I much prefer killing Loghain and having AListair rule alone; hardened or not.

[Plaintiff]

dafangirl wrote...

The way more "honorable" character, Ser Jory, couldn't handle it, the pickpocketing-rogue, Daveth, was all over it. The main problem is that Alistair hasn't seen war, at all. Heck he says very early about fighting darkspawn "I'm not looking forward to encountering another". I think it's very telling that one of his combat sound bites is "That's a lot of blood".

Jory's hesitance has nothing to do with honour and everything to do with the fact that he has a pregnant wife waiting at home for him.

As a HN, especially, I agree with Gervaise in giving Loghain a chance. Loghain has been to hell and back, as has the HN recently, even if prior to this all he/she did was "whack stuffed men in the courtyard" that changed in a hurry trying to escape the castle.

Loghain has had a whole lifetime to prove that he wasn't a complete dick. Having horrible things happen to you does not excuse being a horrible person.

Alistair just doesn't have the rage necessary inside to handle, brutal, bloody war. Not metagaming, who knew how long the Blight would last, it could have been years following the Landsmeet.

Yeah, he's only been fighting darkspawn for a year already up until this point.  Good god, how would he ever cope?

The only reason Alistair looks at Duncan with such fondness, further proof in his Fade dream, is because Alistair desperately wants a family. That's how he sees the Wardens, as a fraternity, a close group of drinking buddies. "It doesn't have to be deadly serious all the time does it?" Yes, Alistair that's the Vigilance part, of the motto, and btw there's a darkspawn horde approaching.

Obviously it doesn't have to be serious all the time, what a stupid thing to say. The other Grey Wardens had no problem with a drinking contest. Duncan didn't have a problem with it. Knowing you're going to die young does not and should not preclude the possibility of having fun, and having fun doesn't make you unfit for battle. There's a logical disconnect the size of the Grand Canyon here.

The comparison with the HN's family is ridiculous, as is the loss of the DE's clan, even the CE's family. He needs a hard dose of reality. Being a Grey Warden is a very lonely, solitary life. "The time will come when we'll need a real home." No being a Grey Warden isn't a 9-5 job, it's a life sentence.

Except, funny thing, the Grey Wardens do not spend all their time fighting darkspawn, nor does anyone claim that they do. Blights only happen once every few hundred years. The Grey Wardens have plenty of downtime. They can do whatever the **** they want.

Alistair can't even accept Duncan's sacrifice, don't recite the motto; mean it. "Duncan said any of us could die in battle..." Alistair do you realize that in past blights virtually no wardens make it out alive. That's the reality, they simply can stand on the battlefield much longer because their immune to the burning taint.

So he's not allowed to be sad and angry about it? What ****ery is this? I'd sure like to see how you cope with the death of loved ones.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 novembre 2011 - 08:47 .

[Marvin_Arnold]

About dying young: 50 being considered old age in those times, (average life expectancy was about 40), being made a Grey Warden in your 20s and living on for 30 years (unless an Ogre eats you) isn't that bad a prospect.

The Grey Wardens have plenty of downtime.

And I'm sure they find other ways to spend their time apart from being Vigilant and exploring the Deep Roads. They are independent elite soldiers, after all. And exude an aura of respect, even if no-one remembers what their original purpose is...

Modifié par Marvin_Arnold, 18 novembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Conway044]

Re 5. He learned that the King was going to divorce his daughter and marry an Orlesian, so he arranged for the tower of Ishal to be lost to the darkspawn. Then when the Grey Wardens still managed to light the beacon he took his forces to secure the capital and started taking out the nobles still loyal to the Therin line.

I don't think what happened to his mom is justification for his actions. I suspect that his father would have been horrified by his betrayal of the king.