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Are you happy? *Contains spoilers*


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#101
alperez

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I can tell you that authors of written stories often work the same way. They start with "I want this to happen. How can I make it happen and not look ridiculous?". It even goes down to "I want this character to say X at some point." In itself, it's not bad. How it comes across depends on the execution. I've literally spent days working things like this out with Elyvern for her fanfic "Degress of Inheritance". With a game like ME3, they also have to take into account that different players want different things.

And remember this is all not meant to be read. It's meant to be heard in the context of a visual presentation. Actually, if you start to imagine scenes around the lines you'll often get a much better impression.

I see quite a bit of good stuff in the files and not really a lot of bad stuff. The bad lies mainly in things that are missing and should be there. Perhaps we'll see them yet. Only some lines of consequences are badly contrived and there are some really cheesy tropes at work in places. But did you expect any different? The previous games were the same way.


I've seen interviews with writers, gone to lectures by writers, even this morning i watched John Grisham on tv explaining how he interprets and organises the basics of story structure, character arcs and events, what most of them have in common is an overal vision of the storyline and character arcs and how these fit in the overall narrative.

The problem i see in the leaks is that in a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case, instead we get character arcs imo to fit the storyline rather than fitting the character arcs themselves in a lot of places, there are points in the storyine that are imo thrown together to fit the story they now want to tell rather than the story they began telling.

Basically its a lack of on overall narrative that seems to be missing, its pretty evident with certain characters that they didn't plan them out and now they're trying to fit those characters into specific roles that in reality they should,, if they had an overall idea for the story, had set the groundwork with them a long time ago.

So in some characters we have them almost acting ooc in order to fit the storyline without giving them a reason to act ooc that actually makes sense, so we get the usual fallback position of indoctrination as an explanation in some cases or no proper explanation in others.

I could go into more detail but that would involve spoilers so i'll pm if you like.

It's always going to be a compromise between listening to the old fans, appealing to new players, the writers' vision and efficient resource allocation. I can see a few points where they did listen to the fans - yes, that does apply to Miranda, too. How drastic the points are where they didn't remains to be seen.


Compromise is one thing, i understand what the needs are in appealing to new fans and in the writers own vision, where i take issue though is that imo in a lot of cases the writers own vision just doesn't make sense both in terms of the overall narrative and in the specifics of the character arcs themselves.

What i mean by this is that in creating a role for a specific character to play if there was a writers vision in that then why in a lot of cases does the role make no real sense in terms of the character themselves, surely your vision of the character should form some sort of a natural progression of that character and the events they go through?

As for listening to the fans in terms of characterisation, if the leak proves correct i think its clear they really did not, in terms of certain characters anyway, again i can't go into too much detail here as it involves spoilers.

Again though your completely right, at this point everything i'm saying is based on info that may be incomplete or may have changed somewhat come release and its probably only then a real and proper examination is possible.

#102
Badpie

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I'm happy with some of what I've seen, really irked with other things, keeping in mind that none of it is final.

There is some amazing stuff particularly in regards to certain characters and then on the other side of the coin there is some crazy WTF stuff with regards to those same characters.

My only concern after seeing the stuff is that if even most of it is in the final product it could appear really heavy handed and kind of cliche and melodramatic. No one wants that. Drama is good. Melodrama is annoying as hell. And depressing soul crushing stuff is the kind of thing that will keep people from replaying if its not used sparingly.

I also don't want to feel punished for liking certain characters like TeenZombie said on the first page. Again, some drama is interesting and warranted. Too much feels like a slap in the face, particularly when said characters already bear the brunt of the negative opinions from the fandom.

Modifié par Badpie, 16 novembre 2011 - 04:28 .


#103
Tamyn

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ZombieGeisha wrote...

Not keen with what has been said for the VS. Horizon was a big negative issue with them and now sounds like there's a Horizon and Virmire part 2.



And a "Wrex on Virmire" part 2!

I'll be very upset if we're forced to have/let a certain squadmate do this one mission that has only one conclusion no matter what Shepard does.

I am displeased with the squadmate roster. Only three of the possible squadmates do I like and look forward to and two of them can't both exist in the same continuity, so effectively there are only two squadmates that I will enjoy teaming up with. I consider one of the squadmates ridiculous and I hope it can be pulled off in a way that isn't facepalm-worthy. I am happy I get to allow a character that annoys me to die.

But the story itself seems exciting and the scenery will be awesome. And I will like all the cool cinematics. It will be quite a ride worthy of several replays.

Modifié par Tamyn, 16 novembre 2011 - 05:11 .


#104
Fault Girl

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Tamyn wrote...

ZombieGeisha wrote...

Not keen with what has been said for the VS. Horizon was a big negative issue with them and now sounds like there's a Horizon and Virmire part 2.



And a "Wrex on Virmire" part 2!

I'll be very upset if we're forced to have/let a certain squadmate do this one mission that has only one conclusion no matter what Shepard does.

I am displeased with the squadmate roster. Only three of the possible squadmates do I like and look forward to and two of them can't both exist in the same continuity, so effectively there are only two squadmates that I will enjoy teaming up with. I consider one of the squadmates ridiculous and I hope it can be pulled off in a way that isn't facepalm-worthy. I am happy I get to allow a character that annoys me to die.

But the story itself seems exciting and the scenery will be awesome. And I will like all the cool cinematics. It will be quite a ride worthy of several replays.



I've read most of the spoilers regarding the VS, I'm hoping that it's just going to be one scenario and not all three, if it is Bioware will lose a customer. Some characters do no wrong for some reason, humans aren't the only species to act careless...

*sigh*

Luckily Kaidan is my fave, I'm also vying for Vega but my other favourite PC's dont seem to be in it as much. :(
But I'll take what I can get.

#105
CptData

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ZombieGeisha wrote...

Tamyn wrote...

ZombieGeisha wrote...

Not keen with what has been said for the VS. Horizon was a big negative issue with them and now sounds like there's a Horizon and Virmire part 2.



And a "Wrex on Virmire" part 2!

I'll be very upset if we're forced to have/let a certain squadmate do this one mission that has only one conclusion no matter what Shepard does.

I am displeased with the squadmate roster. Only three of the possible squadmates do I like and look forward to and two of them can't both exist in the same continuity, so effectively there are only two squadmates that I will enjoy teaming up with. I consider one of the squadmates ridiculous and I hope it can be pulled off in a way that isn't facepalm-worthy. I am happy I get to allow a character that annoys me to die.

But the story itself seems exciting and the scenery will be awesome. And I will like all the cool cinematics. It will be quite a ride worthy of several replays.



I've read most of the spoilers regarding the VS, I'm hoping that it's just going to be one scenario and not all three, if it is Bioware will lose a customer. Some characters do no wrong for some reason, humans aren't the only species to act careless...

*sigh*

Luckily Kaidan is my fave, I'm also vying for Vega but my other favourite PC's dont seem to be in it as much. :(
But I'll take what I can get.

Yeah, somehow I hope that too ...

However, just in case we have to face all events within one playthrough, I'll make sure my fav will survive. And that's Ashley (poor Kaidan) Image IPB

#106
Drone223

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^Should such a thing happen I won't be suprized that people will use it as an excuse to kill the VS, though hopefully Bioware might cut the VS some slack

Modifié par Drone223, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:56 .


#107
CptData

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Drone223 wrote...

^Should such a thing happen I won't be suprized that people will use it as an excuse to kill the VS


An "excuse"? Guys who hate the VS since beginning (there are a lot of guys who hate Ash AND Kaidan and virmired the more hated one) don't need an excuse to kill the VS and even more not MULTIPLE chances to do so. They just need one. Lets say if BW would add a scene where Shepard suddenly pulls his/her gun and shot the VS without any reason, a lot of guys would pick that opportunity to get rid of the VS.

Sad as it is - it's kinda true Image IPB

Modifié par CptData, 16 novembre 2011 - 08:58 .


#108
Fault Girl

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Alot of the VS hate stems from Horizon, which I personally don't get. I understood where the VS was coming from in that scene (even with the sloppy writing) and even if they throw each scenario in there, I wont dispose of them, just to make a point.

#109
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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CptData wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

^Should such a thing happen I won't be suprized that people will use it as an excuse to kill the VS


An "excuse"? Guys who hate the VS since beginning (there are a lot of guys who hate Ash AND Kaidan and virmired the more hated one) don't need an excuse to kill the VS and even more not MULTIPLE chances to do so. They just need one. Lets say if BW would add a scene where Shepard suddenly pulls his/her gun and shot the VS without any reason, a lot of guys would pick that opportunity to get rid of the VS.

Sad as it is - it's kinda true Image IPB

Unfortunately, this is true for every character. Some people use the SM as an opportunity to "weed out" those they don't like; others hate Liara simply because she can't die as of yet.

#110
CptData

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Cthulhu42 wrote...
Unfortunately, this is true for every character. Some people use the SM as an opportunity to "weed out" those they don't like; others hate Liara simply because she can't die as of yet.

Concur. However, the VS seems to be the "hate magnet". It's not just Horizon, nope. Some hate Ashley because of her scepticism (misunderstood as racism), others hate Kaidan because he's "whiney" and "boring" (not my quotes).

See, I don't like Jack in ME2. Still I do her LM and ensure she'll make it through the SM. All of my Shepards care for the crew, doesn't matter if s/he likes one or not.

#111
Fault Girl

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

CptData wrote...

Drone223 wrote...

^Should such a thing happen I won't be suprized that people will use it as an excuse to kill the VS


An "excuse"? Guys who hate the VS since beginning (there are a lot of guys who hate Ash AND Kaidan and virmired the more hated one) don't need an excuse to kill the VS and even more not MULTIPLE chances to do so. They just need one. Lets say if BW would add a scene where Shepard suddenly pulls his/her gun and shot the VS without any reason, a lot of guys would pick that opportunity to get rid of the VS.

Sad as it is - it's kinda true Image IPB

Unfortunately, this is true for every character. Some people use the SM as an opportunity to "weed out" those they don't like; others hate Liara simply because she can't die as of yet.


it may just be, even with characters I don't warm too such as Liara/Tali I would still find it hard to kill them. :mellow:

#112
Drone223

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The point of losing a squad member is to show that Shepard cannot deafeat the Reaper's with out sacrfice, but with all the character hate its starting to lose its purpose

#113
CptData

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Drone223 wrote...

The point of losing a squad member is to show that Shepard cannot deafeat the Reaper's with out sacrfice, but with all the character hate its starting to lose its purpose

That's exactly how I treat my Shepards. They do care of their crews. They want to get them through hell all, but obviously it's not possible. So every sacrifice should have a meaning.

Killing someone because s/he is hated doesn't work for me. It's kinda childish.

I think I'll create a thread regarding that topic ...

#114
Fault Girl

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Drone223 wrote...

The point of losing a squad member is to show that Shepard cannot deafeat the Reaper's with out sacrfice, but with all the character hate its starting to lose its purpose


I agree, I just wouldn't do it with choice but even if I did it wouldnt be with hate but with logic and thought. My Shepard virmired Ashely, although I love her as a character Kaidan is a biotic and most of the time LI.

If there is a Virmire part 2 I just hope they dont make the decision too hard. It would take someone of importance for me to even think of killing Kaidan.

#115
KyreneZA

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Happy? Overall, not really, although the choice of the R.I.P. candidates given for the Virmire 2.0 scene has me over the moon. I'm not happy that I may still have to Wrex-kill the VS 2.0 at some point too.

Click this SPOILER for a visual synopsis.

#116
Pinkflu

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Kyrene wrote...

Happy? Overall, not really, although the choice of the R.I.P. candidates given for the Virmire 2.0 scene has me over the moon. I'm not happy that I may still have to Wrex-kill the VS 2.0 at some point too.

Click this SPOILER for a visual synopsis.


That pic is incorrect on a few points.

But I support your other statements. I oppose another Virmire choice, if only because it's already been done.

#117
KyreneZA

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Pinkflu wrote...

That pic is incorrect on a few points.

But I support your other statements. I oppose another Virmire choice, if only because it's already been done.

Would you mind telling me what's incorrect in a PM?

#118
JediHealerCosmin

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Kyrene wrote...

Happy? Overall, not really, although the choice of the R.I.P. candidates given for the Virmire 2.0 scene has me over the moon. I'm not happy that I may still have to Wrex-kill the VS 2.0 at some point too.

Click this SPOILER for a visual synopsis.


If those things are accurate, then I'm seriously banging my head on the desk.

#119
Comsky159

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I'm actually very happy with everything I saw. Of course its impossible to make a justified judgement until March.

#120
Ryzaki

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Eh whatever. I'm happy. Why do I care about anyone else. *takes balls and goes home*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 novembre 2011 - 04:20 .


#121
DCarter

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Mass effect has a very large cast of characters and some of them have always seemed a bit superfluous to the story to me especially some of the ME2 cast. So i was expecting quite a few of them to not get much screen time.

That being said my biggest concern is the overall narrative which seemed to lose it's way in ME2 and some of the spoilers i've heard (haven't read a lot of the script) don't give me a lot of confidence in ME3.

I'm still going to buy the game and i'm sure i'll enjoy it but i don't think it will fully live up to my lofty expectations.

Modifié par DCarter, 16 novembre 2011 - 04:33 .


#122
armass

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Im fairly ok with what ive seen from the leaks, character or otherwise. The most negative noises seems to come from Cerberus fanboys, but I never liked Cerberus so it doesnt matter to me.

Modifié par armass, 16 novembre 2011 - 05:15 .


#123
Iakus

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Drone223 wrote...

The point of losing a squad member is to show that Shepard cannot deafeat the Reaper's with out sacrfice, but with all the character hate its starting to lose its purpose


This is true.

But giving certain characters at least three opportunities to be killed off, and most of the others only one, seems excessive...

#124
xelander

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Well, it's been a battle of will, but I've managed to not spoil myself completly - I know a little about the amount of ME2 squad screentime and some more stuff about Miranda (I dared not read the more detailed posts in the private group) and Jacob. Plus, of course, what's been said so far in this thread.

If things turn out the way it looks like...ugh... I'm saying this: IF(!!!) I buy the game, I'm erasing my previous saves and I'm killing team dextro on every single playthrough (doesn't matter that I play mostly Paragon). And if I get the chance in ME3, I'm doing Liara in, too. Might be childish, but it is what it is. I wonder if that would make the game unbeatable. Oh, the irony...

lurk_mode on; //must not read spoilers, must not read spoilers

#125
S.A.K

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^How does killing anyone help? You'll just miss a big part of the game.