36 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

It is always more merciful to kill him, no matter what side you choose.

[esper]

@Knight of Dane:
Do you just want to pick a fight with me?
Anyway, I disagree so I guess that I will bite for now. On friendship path Anders is more at peace with himself. Yes, he is more cause than man, but that is the price he has paid and on friendship path. He does feel guilt and is more than ready to pay for his crime, he properly even think that he should pay for his crime with his life. He is, however, fully ready and prepared to fight further for his cause.

Rivalry is a traickwreck - espicially if you do its romance (haven't tried it without, might be less crazy there). I only did it once, but that Hawke did come across as mentally abusing Anders too me.

[Knight of Dane]

He is a trainwreck on Rivalry because he admids to being a maniac, on friendship he ignores it, and is by that a-ok.

Edit: And anyway: I Pick a fight with just about anyone, that's what makes this board fun.
On gamespot i can win any argument, here people actually think things through!

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 15 novembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[Gervaise]

I think rivalmancing him would be a bit much but I did try rivalry with him just once. It was hard work because it did seem as if the only way to get all the way to rivalry was to be aggressive and keep telling him how much my mage disagreed with his "union" with Justice. The upside was that after the bomb making quest, I actually get to have a disagreement with Justice rather than Anders, which was much more satisfying. I tend to agree that forcing Anders to join you to fight with the Templars is just cruel. Okay so he didn't care about the Circle mages when he did the deed but making him party to actually killing them may be poetic justice but I couldn't do it.

However, if you are the sort of person who could be bastard enough to give Fenris back to Danarius, which Anders actually approves of, then I think you should side with the Templars, rival Anders and make him go through it with you. Some how the hypocrisy of Anders approving of giving Fenris back to a life of servitude removed any sense of pity for him since he is clearly just one step away from being a Tevinter Magister himself.

[Asdara]

esper wrote...

xxricijsxx wrote...

hopfully its just bug....

usually, i dont side with temlars, but this time was exception.

i didn't want to kill Anders, so the only option was to rivalry romance him.

Honestly I think it might be more mercifull to kill him or to let him go and fight against him if you are siding with the templars.

That's what I do when I side with the Templars - let him go and kill him in a more honest battle later - I mean... knifing the guy just seems anti-climactic after he blows up a huge building and such... and making him side with the people he just gave a long diatribe about there being no possibility of peace or compromise with seems... unlikely.

[Asdara]

Gervaise wrote...

I think rivalmancing him would be a bit much but I did try rivalry with him just once. It was hard work because it did seem as if the only way to get all the way to rivalry was to be aggressive and keep telling him how much my mage disagreed with his "union" with Justice. The upside was that after the bomb making quest, I actually get to have a disagreement with Justice rather than Anders, which was much more satisfying. I tend to agree that forcing Anders to join you to fight with the Templars is just cruel. Okay so he didn't care about the Circle mages when he did the deed but making him party to actually killing them may be poetic justice but I couldn't do it.

However, if you are the sort of person who could be bastard enough to give Fenris back to Danarius, which Anders actually approves of, then I think you should side with the Templars, rival Anders and make him go through it with you. Some how the hypocrisy of Anders approving of giving Fenris back to a life of servitude removed any sense of pity for him since he is clearly just one step away from being a Tevinter Magister himself.

And... y'know, not to be all Anders-fan-girl (because I'm not - I like playing for the story in my head, which changes every time I play) - but I think he gets a little too much flak for that one approval notch.  It's a small bump - it's not like you get +35 or anything really significant. 

MAYBE he just approves of not having to deal with a guy who takes every opportunity to hate on him and his kind regardless of if they are good, bad, or inbetween and thinks to himself "Oh Maker - I won't have to see that bastard ever again" - because who knows, maybe Fenris escapes again down the road, but he sure won't be in Ander's hair again.  Huzzah.

...besides, some of the people approve/disapprove goofy things sometimes - I don't think every notch you get one way or the other is a defining moment for that particular person's philosophy of life.  

[Catriana]

Asdara wrote...

And... y'know, not to be all Anders-fan-girl (because I'm not - I like playing for the story in my head, which changes every time I play) - but I think he gets a little too much flak for that one approval notch.  It's a small bump - it's not like you get +35 or anything really significant. 

MAYBE he just approves of not having to deal with a guy who takes every opportunity to hate on him and his kind regardless of if they are good, bad, or inbetween and thinks to himself "Oh Maker - I won't have to see that bastard ever again" - because who knows, maybe Fenris escapes again down the road, but he sure won't be in Ander's hair again.  Huzzah.

...besides, some of the people approve/disapprove goofy things sometimes - I don't think every notch you get one way or the other is a defining moment for that particular person's philosophy of life.  

I don't care if his approval rating goes up by +1, it's not the approval, but the comment itself that's what so bothersome. "Oh, even though I'm completely against imprisonment of mages, I could care less if Fenris, who actually was a slave, is handed back over to Danarius just because he pisses me off and we can't agree on hardly anything! Tee hee!"

In the end, it's just one of those situations where he should have kept his mouth shut. Trust me, I would have lost equal respect for Fenris if Hawke had turned Anders over to the Templars, knowing he had been hurt and abused by them, and been like "It's about time. Good riddance." or something else equally insensitive.

[esper]

Catriana wrote...

Asdara wrote...

And... y'know, not to be all Anders-fan-girl (because I'm not - I like playing for the story in my head, which changes every time I play) - but I think he gets a little too much flak for that one approval notch.  It's a small bump - it's not like you get +35 or anything really significant. 

MAYBE he just approves of not having to deal with a guy who takes every opportunity to hate on him and his kind regardless of if they are good, bad, or inbetween and thinks to himself "Oh Maker - I won't have to see that bastard ever again" - because who knows, maybe Fenris escapes again down the road, but he sure won't be in Ander's hair again.  Huzzah.

...besides, some of the people approve/disapprove goofy things sometimes - I don't think every notch you get one way or the other is a defining moment for that particular person's philosophy of life.  

I don't care if his approval rating goes up by +1, it's not the approval, but the comment itself that's what so bothersome. "Oh, even though I'm completely against imprisonment of mages, I could care less if Fenris, who actually was a slave, is handed back over to Danarius just because he pisses me off and we can't agree on hardly anything! Tee hee!"

In the end, it's just one of those situations where he should have kept his mouth shut. Trust me, I would have lost equal respect for Fenris if Hawke had turned Anders over to the Templars, knowing he had been hurt and abused by them, and been like "It's about time. Good riddance." or something else equally insensitive.

Which Fenris would have said. Doesn't mean that Anders isn't a jerk and a hypocrite there, because he is. But every party member gain approvall for something that is a little iffy.
For Fenris it is blackmailing Trask about his daughter. Not even Isabella approves of that and the poor girl is dead, blackmailing Trask is just wrong on so many levels.
Merrill and the books. I know she is against destroying knowlegde, but those books is magical and possessed. Also there is the whole Torpor thing, but what Merrill says and her approval acutally doesn't match up there.
Isabella is... well Isabella, she has a very random sense of moral to say it the least.

[Catriana]

esper wrote...

Which Fenris would have said. Doesn't mean that Anders isn't a jerk and a hypocrite there, because he is. But every party member gain approvall for something that is a little iffy.
For Fenris it is blackmailing Trask about his daughter. Not even Isabella approves of that and the poor girl is dead, blackmailing Trask is just wrong on so many levels.
Merrill and the books. I know she is against destroying knowlegde, but those books is magical and possessed. Also there is the whole Torpor thing, but what Merrill says and her approval acutally doesn't match up there.
Isabella is... well Isabella, she has a very random sense of moral to say it the least.

Would have, could have, didn't. I'm not going to give a character grief for something I 'think' they might say or do. People can surprise you, I've learned.

And no, I wasn't keen on Fenris wanting to blackmail Thrask and I did lose a bit of respect for him. But that was rather early on, and certainly not during Act III. By Act III, he's developed quite a bit as a character.

It's probably why I went from seriously disliking Merrill to liking her toward the end. Especially when she stands by your side no matter what, I loved how she merely trusted your judgment as long as her approval rating was high enough.

I still have a hard time 'liking' Isabela. If something actually happened to her once the Qunari take her, and if the Arishok hadn't been like "I'll be back." all Terminator style, I would betray her every. Time. it always irks me how she is THE central reason for everything happening and if you stick up for her, it's like "Oh, Isabela, you SCAMP lol."

But Anders's comment still rubs me absolutely the wrong way.

[esper]

Catriana wrote...

esper wrote...

Which Fenris would have said. Doesn't mean that Anders isn't a jerk and a hypocrite there, because he is. But every party member gain approvall for something that is a little iffy.
For Fenris it is blackmailing Trask about his daughter. Not even Isabella approves of that and the poor girl is dead, blackmailing Trask is just wrong on so many levels.
Merrill and the books. I know she is against destroying knowlegde, but those books is magical and possessed. Also there is the whole Torpor thing, but what Merrill says and her approval acutally doesn't match up there.
Isabella is... well Isabella, she has a very random sense of moral to say it the least.

Would have, could have, didn't. I'm not going to give a character grief for something I 'think' they might say or do. People can surprise you, I've learned.

And no, I wasn't keen on Fenris wanting to blackmail Thrask and I did lose a bit of respect for him. But that was rather early on, and certainly not during Act III. By Act III, he's developed quite a bit as a character.

It's probably why I went from seriously disliking Merrill to liking her toward the end. Especially when she stands by your side no matter what, I loved how she merely trusted your judgment as long as her approval rating was high enough.

I still have a hard time 'liking' Isabela. If something actually happened to her once the Qunari take her, and if the Arishok hadn't been like "I'll be back." all Terminator style, I would betray her every. Time. it always irks me how she is THE central reason for everything happening and if you stick up for her, it's like "Oh, Isabela, you SCAMP lol."

But Anders's comment still rubs me absolutely the wrong way.

Didn't say that Anders comment doesn't rub me the wrong way, because it did, but Fenris view on mages doesn't develop that much and I think that he would still approve of blacmail Trask in act 3.  With both Anders and Fenris, you don't get disapproval for NOT doing it, however, which means a lot (at least I like to think that the disapprovval you get from Fenris in that situation is by saying: It is no problem that you daughter is a mage, not from not blackmailing Trask.) Of course neither Fenris nor Anders gets the opportunity for even saying this line in my main playthrough, so I guess we are back in might have happened.

 
I must agree I have a hard time with Isabella. I find the thing she does to be the most unforgiveable of them all because she does it for a fully selfish reason. I cannot hand her over, however. My Hawke would have been fully ready to hand Isabella over to the guard, but not the Qunaaries.

As for Merrill I actually disrespect her for standing with templar-Hawke so easily in the end. Not that I don't understand her, Hawke is all she has left,. I dislike Aveline for the same thing (just in reverse). Aveline is a corrupt guard and she gets away with it so easily. Only Merrill call her out on it once. But Aveline still believes in order and my Hawke is in act 3  is all about trying her best to overthrow the templars and thus cause chaos, yet I don't have to work very hard to keep Aveline and her trust, in fact I have to work too hard to do the opposite. (But for those two I usally count it towards a too much favour for gameplay and balanced party over the characters' personality. I think that the fact that Merrill's and Aveline's loaylty in part depends on Anders and Fenris is wrong. It should rely soley on friendshio/rivalry).

[Gervaise]

The contrast between Anders and Fenris in Act 3 is this. Sebastian suggests to Fenris that they should report Anders/Merrill to the Templars and Fenris says no, because they are Hawkes' friends and so he shows some sort of loyalty to them because of that. I would also point out that by Act 3 he says to Hawke that not all mages are bad but for every good one that seem to be more ones that you should be scared of, which given our experiences in Kirkwall, which is the only measure he has to base his opinion on, seems a pretty fair assessment of the situation. He still has only contempt for Anders but not without good reason.

By contrast, whilst is is clear that Fenris is no longer Hawke's friend if they hand him over, nevertheless you'd think Anders could show just a tiny bit of loyalty to his alleged principle of "the right of every man, woman and child to be free". If Anders had actually objected and stood up for Fenris, then my estimation of him would have soared and I would be more inclined to forgive him over future actions because at least he is being consistent. As it is he is just being petty, vindictive and hypocritical and pretty much justifying Fenris' low opinion of him. Contrast his reaction with that of Merrill (bless her) who inspite of the way Fenris has treated her, quite vocally objects to what Hawke is doing. Clearly she appreciates that it is not just nice people or mages who should enjoy freedom.

[Catriana]

Gervaise wrote...

The contrast between Anders and Fenris in Act 3 is this. Sebastian suggests to Fenris that they should report Anders/Merrill to the Templars and Fenris says no, because they are Hawkes' friends and so he shows some sort of loyalty to them because of that. I would also point out that by Act 3 he says to Hawke that not all mages are bad but for every good one that seem to be more ones that you should be scared of, which given our experiences in Kirkwall, which is the only measure he has to base his opinion on, seems a pretty fair assessment of the situation. He still has only contempt for Anders but not without good reason.

By contrast, whilst is is clear that Fenris is no longer Hawke's friend if they hand him over, nevertheless you'd think Anders could show just a tiny bit of loyalty to his alleged principle of "the right of every man, woman and child to be free". If Anders had actually objected and stood up for Fenris, then my estimation of him would have soared and I would be more inclined to forgive him over future actions because at least he is being consistent. As it is he is just being petty, vindictive and hypocritical and pretty much justifying Fenris' low opinion of him. Contrast his reaction with that of Merrill (bless her) who inspite of the way Fenris has treated her, quite vocally objects to what Hawke is doing. Clearly she appreciates that it is not just nice people or mages who should enjoy freedom.

Bolded for truth.

Also, the Thrask argument holds no water, esper. If you want to compare, Anders fully endorsed killing Thrask to free the Starkhaven mages. What's worse to you, blackmail or outright murder when someone is actually trying to help? Thrask took advantage of his position as a Templar to hide his daughter, so Fenris figured why not do the same of him? At least it's more justified than "What's the life of one Templar?" that Anders gives you.

Once again, the "Well, Fenris would have done it" isn't a valid argument. Either he has or he hasn't, we're debating actions actually committed by the characters, not hypotheticals.

I love the fact that Merrill supports Hawke. Considering how many people dump their problems on him/her and expect the messes to be fixed, only at the end to finally grow a spine and be like "My way or the highway," like with Sebastian, it's great to see character supporting their friend no matter what.

Edited to avoid the inanity of another Templar/Mage debate.

Modifié par Catriana, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:57 .