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On downloadable content, Bioware and fanboism...


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#226
SkippyMcGee88

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Hardin4188 wrote...

 Stop being cheap no one is forcing you to spend $5 on dlc, but I'm sure you wont mind paying $5 for breakfast. I'd rather have dlc than expansion packs that cost half the game and come out months later.


Another genius comparing the cost of food to the DLC in this game...

Add in the insult of "cheapness" and we got ourselves a Websters-esc "Lemming"...

Appeased by cheese, he would rather have sub-par to mediocre satisfaction now, overpriced mind you, than quality AND quanity later...

Like Pavlov's dogs in here...

Ding...

/drool

7, 15, 5... While EA is laughing their asses off to the bank.

Modifié par SkippyMcGee88, 23 novembre 2009 - 02:59 .


#227
Hardin4188

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You can whine all you want but that wont make me enjoy the dlc less. What are you expecting some sort of Broken Steel dlc? That wont come out 3 weeks after the game has been out. Empire at War had the same problem with whiners. They threw a hissy fit when they found out you could download new units for like $4. It's so foolish to complain about this.

Modifié par Hardin4188, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:00 .


#228
Andat

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$5 (or £3 in real money :P ) doesn't seem like a whole hell of a lot. The only problem I see (which I haven't experienced for myself but I have heard from a few different sources) is that you have a guy stood in your camp trying to sell you DLC. I don't know whether that was just laziness (it being too hard to conditionalise whether that guy appears or not), a misinformed attempt at streamlining the DLC purchase, or just pushy marketing, but it was a bad idea.



However, for me personally, most of the DLC is worth it, though I may be a little biased since it came with my copy of the game. Warden's Keep is short but introduces some cool background stuff on the Grey Wardens. Stone Prisoner gives you a great extra companion character. Return To Ostagar... well, we'll see. It looks like a cool quest and possible companion character.



Because this thread really needs another analogy: it's like paying for a quater pounder with cheese then asking why there's no bacon on it. I mean, the bacon's right there, right? Surely they could just slap some on there. I mean, a burger's not really complete without bacon, right? Unfortunately, burger joints are there to make money.



That's capitalism, baby.

#229
WishFish123

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PzR Slim wrote...

See you just don't get it. Nobody's opinions are true or false that's why they are opinions. Nobody can be wrong for stating an opinion, but they can be wrong for stating that opinion as fact. But until enough people have the same opinion as you and refuse to buy it then DLC will remain, that is the only fact in all of this


I didn't write that my oppinion is true, i wrote that "i BELEIVE that my opinion is true".
What's wrong about that?

You don't beleive that your opinion is correct?

#230
PzR Slim

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SkippyMcGee88 wrote...

Hardin4188 wrote...

 Stop being cheap no one is forcing you to spend $5 on dlc, but I'm sure you wont mind paying $5 for breakfast. I'd rather have dlc than expansion packs that cost half the game and come out months later.


Another genius comparing the cost of food to the DLC in this game...

Add in the insult of "cheapness" and we got ourselves a Websters-esc "Lemming"...

Appeased by cheese, he would rather have sub-par to mediocre satisfaction now, overpriced mind you, than quality AND quanity later...

Like Pavlov's dogs in here...

Ding...

/drool

7, 15, 5... While EA is laughing their asses off to the bank.


Just becasue someone holds a different opinion to you doesn't mean they are wrong, in exactly the same way that you are not wrong for holding your opinion. I said it earlier in this thread but once again, if I said that, in my opinion, it was a waste of money you buying your favourite bands CD's would that make it true. You are totally right to hold your opinion but don't lambast someone for holding their own. It is ok for people to disagree you know.

#231
maladictor2009

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EA's point of view must be : must make money no matter the consequenses.



Bioware point of view : meh we are part of corperate giant now we dont control anything.



My point of view : I wish they could give us the dlc's to further their own product as it dimishes in value over time But its not the world we live in.

#232
WishFish123

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maladictor2009 wrote...

My point of view : I wish they could give us the dlc's to further their own product as it dimishes in value over time But its not the world we live in.


We are the people that make the world we live in.

#233
MerinTB

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nothing3839 wrote...

I am very disappointed by the community's discussion regarding the downloadable content in Dragonage and Bioware's decision to charge additional cost. I should say that I am disappointed by the lack of discussion.  A few threads that have been opened by people who are critical of the cost as well as the aggressive ingame marketing of the additional content have usually been flamed by the vast hordes of Bioware fanboys and the usual "no one is forcing you to buy the game..." arguments.  You know, I really expected a more critical and pro-consumer response from the gaming community.  $50 to $60 is not a small amount of money to pay for a limited user licence for a peace of software (thats right, limited user licence, not ownership, read your user agreement) and charging money for several hours of additional content is not considerate toward the average gamer's budget.  In my opinion this is a clear example of an industry wide trend of developing new strategies and schemes to extract as much money as possible for the consumer.  
I guess this was only the next step for an industry that is accustomed to releasing broken or unfinished products, charging full price, and then "fixing" the problems though a series of downloadable patches for months or years (oh and Dragonage has is fare share of bugs).  I just expected more from this community than "...Bioware is awesome...no one forced you to buy..."


How dare those novel writers charge us for every book in a series!  They obviously had the whole story planned from the start, and knew they were going to keep adding to it!  I don't care that they have to keep writing it, and publishing it, and all of that - no, the fact that the one novel is "unfinished" because the characters and/or setting go on in another novel is ripping me off for forcing me to buy the next.
R.A. Salvatore should refund everyone who bought any of the Drizzt books after Crystal Shard!  The con artist!

And those movie makers - the ones who have the sequels and trilogies and such!  How dare they charge me another movie ticket for the next film in a series!  What does it matter that the actors, writers, producers, camera people, etc., had to work on the next film?  It is clear to me that they had a whole bunch of stuff they were going to do with those characters / plots / worlds and only gave it to us piecemeal in bits and chunks!   Seriously, $10 for about 2 hours of entertainment and THEN they expect me to pay $10 for 2 more hours that should really have been part of the first film?!?  And don't get me started on "1 DVD per movie" rip-offs!

Dang it, while we're at it, how about those comic books, huh?  These writers and editors and publishing companies, they have story arcs and crossover events planned for years in advance!  They KNOW that several issues combine into one story, and a whole series revolving around one character or group of characters are, you know, revolving around those characters and are all part of one big product.  But then they make me pay $3 or $4 dollars per 20-30 pages!  I don't care that artists, writers, inkers, etc., have to work on each issue - they are part of one story, overall, and should be given to me all at one for one price!

What, I can wait for compilation books for trilogies of novels, or box sets of a movie series, or a trade paperback of a given comic book's story arc for cheaper as one product if I just wait, like computer games will collect expansion packs and DLC into one purchaseable product for a big discount if I just wait a year or so?  You want me to WAIT when the game is out now?!?  They should put it out in the compilation format, for the super-cheap price, immediately.  Honestly, why should I pay $50-$60 dollars for the game at release date and then $5-$10 per DLC and $20-$40 per expansion when someone who waited to pick up the game 2-4 years after release can get it all for like $20-$40?  I should get it IMMEDIATELY for that price.

[in case your sarcasm detectors are failing . . . you know, just saying]

Modifié par MerinTB, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:25 .


#234
WishFish123

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bjdbwea wrote...

WishFish123 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

But what do you aim to accomplish? You've already gotten the answer from BioWare in this very forum: They don't care that you or I are unhappy. All that matters are the numbers, and so far they justify the way they've embarked upon.


Link please.


Uh, page 3 of this very thread? As well as several replies in some of the countless other DLC threads.


Oh, i just read that post from Bioware. I was very sad to read that.

"We will do what we can sell most" is not really something that should be heard from company that aims for the quality.

EDIT: i'm suprised how strongly the posters here are orientated toward economy, capitalism, money and so on.
For god sake i thought you are roleplayers. Dreamers, idealists, people with souls. RPG, role playing game. Anyone? Anyone ever played pen&paper RPG here?

Modifié par WishFish123, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:35 .


#235
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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Ive got no problem with Bioware making DLC and making money from it. Heck, Ive even got no problem with them using time more effectively and releasing it when the game is (despite the well founded suspicions of holding back stuff that could have gone into the game that it creates).

No, the only thing bothered me about the DAO DLC fiasco is this pathetic and undignified "cold calling" that Bioware have undertaken. I dont know if thats what you call them in Canada and the US, or if you even get them. Those calls on your phone, and since you answer the phone, like you talk to an NPC in an RPG (because thats what they are for) you are disappointed and annoyed when it turns out to be a pathetic sales pitch.

Seriously, I cant see any gain from this ridiculous "in game advertising" that you could not already get from the regular online advertising, and that is spreading awareness. All you are doing thats new is insulting and offending some of the players who dont have the money or motivation to buy your 1-2 hour DLCs.

This whole fiasco has been one of many recently thats made me lose respect for Bioware.

By all means make money from DLC, whether at release or after. Just dont pester me when I paid for the damn game already, and dont want in game advertising spoiling the fun. Its just so..... petty.

The worst part is that as far as I know, this is planned for ME2 as well if I read some dev quotes right.

Is this just a coincidence, or does it have anything to do with EA calling the shots? Either way, I hate it, and would prefer Bioware not to pester me in game to purchase their DLC in future. Ill make the decision as an informed Bioware customer, not be insulted by having it flogged in a game I paid good money for already. I expected better than this.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:43 .


#236
bjdbwea

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WishFish123 wrote...

i'm suprised how strongly the posters here are orientated toward economy, capitalism, money and so on.
For god sake i thought you are roleplayers. Dreamers, idealists, people with souls. RPG, role playing game. Anyone? Anyone ever played pen&paper RPG here?


Sure, still are, but so what? There are things you just have to accept because all complaining and getting angry won't change a thing. And the whole DLC issue is one of the minor things at that. This is like a democracy, where the majority forces their will upon everyone else. The companies, like politicians, do their best to influence people's opinion, but in the end no one has to share most of the blame but the voters customers. They all will reap what they sow in the end, not that it's any consolation. But let's not make this more serious than it is, shall we.:wizard:

#237
PzR Slim

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WishFish123 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

WishFish123 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

But what do you aim to accomplish? You've already gotten the answer from BioWare in this very forum: They don't care that you or I are unhappy. All that matters are the numbers, and so far they justify the way they've embarked upon.


Link please.


Uh, page 3 of this very thread? As well as several replies in some of the countless other DLC threads.


Oh, i just read that post from Bioware. I was very sad to read that.

"We will do what we can sell most" is not really something that should be heard from company that aims for the quality.

EDIT: i'm suprised how strongly the posters here are orientated toward economy, capitalism, money and so on.
For god sake i thought you are roleplayers. Dreamers, idealists, people with souls. RPG, role playing game. Anyone? Anyone ever played pen&paper RPG here?



I have. I had to pay for those as well. I was amazed I didn't get the DM guide and MM for free when I bought the Players Guide. They even made me buy my own dice!!

#238
SheffSteel

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Idealism from an old school role-player:

Bioware is one of the few companies out there that is willing and able to create landmark role-playing games. CD Projekt Red is in trouble and there isn't much else out there. Bioware's parent company recently posted losses and announced big job cuts. This is scary. Bioware is worth supporting.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:54 .


#239
Jiandao

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Help I just downloaded Dragon Age Origin digitally deluxedition but no manual where can I get it

#240
Godeshus

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MerinTB wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...

I am very disappointed by the community's discussion regarding the downloadable content in Dragonage and Bioware's decision to charge additional cost. I should say that I am disappointed by the lack of discussion.  A few threads that have been opened by people who are critical of the cost as well as the aggressive ingame marketing of the additional content have usually been flamed by the vast hordes of Bioware fanboys and the usual "no one is forcing you to buy the game..." arguments.  You know, I really expected a more critical and pro-consumer response from the gaming community.  $50 to $60 is not a small amount of money to pay for a limited user licence for a peace of software (thats right, limited user licence, not ownership, read your user agreement) and charging money for several hours of additional content is not considerate toward the average gamer's budget.  In my opinion this is a clear example of an industry wide trend of developing new strategies and schemes to extract as much money as possible for the consumer.  
I guess this was only the next step for an industry that is accustomed to releasing broken or unfinished products, charging full price, and then "fixing" the problems though a series of downloadable patches for months or years (oh and Dragonage has is fare share of bugs).  I just expected more from this community than "...Bioware is awesome...no one forced you to buy..."


How dare those novel writers charge us for every book in a series!  They obviously had the whole story planned from the start, and knew they were going to keep adding to it!  I don't care that they have to keep writing it, and publishing it, and all of that - no, the fact that the one novel is "unfinished" because the characters and/or setting go on in another novel is ripping me off for forcing me to buy the next.
R.A. Salvatore should refund everyone who bought any of the Drizzt books after Crystal Shard!  The con artist!

And those movie makers - the ones who have the sequels and trilogies and such!  How dare they charge me another movie ticket for the next film in a series!  What does it matter that the actors, writers, producers, camera people, etc., had to work on the next film?  It is clear to me that they had a whole bunch of stuff they were going to do with those characters / plots / worlds and only gave it to us piecemeal in bits and chunks!   Seriously, $10 for about 2 hours of entertainment and THEN they expect me to pay $10 for 2 more hours that should really have been part of the first film?!?  And don't get me started on "1 DVD per movie" rip-offs!

Dang it, while we're at it, how about those comic books, huh?  These writers and editors and publishing companies, they have story arcs and crossover events planned for years in advance!  They KNOW that several issues combine into one story, and a whole series revolving around one character or group of characters are, you know, revolving around those characters and are all part of one big product.  But then they make me pay $3 or $4 dollars per 20-30 pages!  I don't care that artists, writers, inkers, etc., have to work on each issue - they are part of one story, overall, and should be given to me all at one for one price!

What, I can wait for compilation books for trilogies of novels, or box sets of a movie series, or a trade paperback of a given comic book's story arc for cheaper as one product if I just wait, like computer games will collect expansion packs and DLC into one purchaseable product for a big discount if I just wait a year or so?  You want me to WAIT when the game is out now?!?  They should put it out in the compilation format, for the super-cheap price, immediately.  Honestly, why should I pay $50-$60 dollars for the game at release date and then $5-$10 per DLC and $20-$40 per expansion when someone who waited to pick up the game 2-4 years after release can get it all for like $20-$40?  I should get it IMMEDIATELY for that price.

[in case your sarcasm detectors are failing . . . you know, just saying]


I don't think anyone is expecting to get Dragon Age 2  for free. We are talking about DLC here.

#241
WishFish123

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Honestly i think the reason why we have this ****ty DLC is in the people who play cracked versions of the game.

So lets say 10 people are very interested in the game, but only 3 of them will pay for it's copy.

So the game must cost 50 euros and you have DLC so you can pay even more.

Capitalism. Isn't there anything better?

#242
WishFish123

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PzR Slim wrote...

I have. I had to pay for those as well. I was amazed I didn't get the DM guide and MM for free when I bought the Players Guide. They even made me buy my own dice!!


But any pages missing from the books?

#243
AshedMan

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Love it or leave it. It's here to stay.

#244
PzR Slim

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WishFish123 wrote...

PzR Slim wrote...

I have. I had to pay for those as well. I was amazed I didn't get the DM guide and MM for free when I bought the Players Guide. They even made me buy my own dice!!


But any pages missing from the books?


No, no missing pages but the gaming tiles, minatures, pencils, aformentioned dice and a number of other things I needed to get the most out of the game were not included and I had to buy them. I could have got by without those things but to get the complete experience I needed to buy more stuff, which of course I was happy to do so.

#245
Klimy

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I have nothing to do with economy but I took few courses in University just for fun. At one of them we were discussing different distribution models. And without going into detail, it was best of all to digitaly distribute small software and such. It's fast, reliable and most of all cheep.

So DLC is not a big chunk of code, it will be evn stupid to burn it on the disc just by itself (waste of space) and think of the costs to manufacture, distribute and sell it. It all come to the point where it will cost much more than it will gain.

we can argue that BW should wait, acumulate these DLC and later release a patch. But who said that there will not be like this. Lets take a look at Fallout3 DLC, eventually they were bundled and released on the disc. Same might be with DA:O. But if my XBox do not lie, then total amount of all DLC is less than 1Gb, while simple DVD is about 5 (you can make it 10 with double-layer) so again it comes to a point of not using its complete capacity.

Now then it comes to the point of pricing. This I really have no clue. But fortunatly I am a developer myself, so I can gamble a bit on this.
Usual teams on the project in RnD are around 3-10 people (at least where I worked so far) without counting QA and managers, the bigger the corporation the better people its trying to hire (take a look at EA employment). And average software engineer gets around 2-5000$ a month, but don't forget that company have to pay also for "employing" personal which in the end almost doubles the sum that company pay per person. Sum to it basic costs as internet, el, workspace and so on.
Now anything even a slight tiny-miny patch goes through several stages of development and testing which will lead to 1-2 month of work at least. (unless its a urgent show stopper). So do the math and you will see that the cost to develop even this tiny DLC is huge.

Now you can say that EA gained more than it payed... well don't they have to get a profit in the end, or have they become a charity organisation at some point? Well, the product is popular and thus gaved a good profit.
No mentaly normal person will think: "Hell it prints us money, lets NOT do it!" It just don't make any sence. Company + Profit = Good. Thats how life goes.

Also often used argument here is "back in old days", well, its true but back in old days it was different exchange rate and no financial crysis. Now the prices are different. Because "back in old days of NWN or BG" bread in a local store cost 5kr while now it costs 20kr (hell, I miss good old day) and usual salary were much less then now.

Things the way they are because that what the life is now. We live in a crapy world, and many of us don't like most of it. Not much can be done aboutit, except: "work harder, try harder and hope for things to change".

Modifié par Klimy, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:14 .


#246
JackDresden

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Ok my thoughts on this;



1. I think Dragon Age gives the best value for money of any game I have played in the past 5 years in terms of size, content and all round value for money.



2. I think the DLC is some what over priced for the amount of extra content it represents, but it's up to Bioware how they choose to price any types of add-in or extra content and up to each individual customer if they think it's worth paying for.



3. The Menu system for downloadable content is good.



4. In game selling of DLC by NPCs has really got me angry, now I have experienced it in game maybe people will stop telling me I cannot possibley know if it will get me angry without experience I can now report it does for the following reasons;



A.) Despite the size and value of the game this does make it seem incomplete the way they have woven in the NPC and the conversation makes you feel that you have an in character obligation to do the DLC, you are then told it's DLC and you have to buy it.



B.) The sales pitch is deceptive, you do not know it's DLC until you have had a long conversation with the NPC.



It's exactly as I thought except the NPC kind of follows you around in a way....which makes it even worse.



The only reason I will not by Wardens Keep is the deceptive sales pitch they have placed in game to try and sell it to me. For me that's cynical and intrusive selling gone much too far and is the only blemish on an otherwise epicly great game. To say I am disappointed in Bioware over this is putting it badly.



On the other hand generally I have nothing against them publishing DLC and pricing it however they like, then if I think it's good value and they don't try to deceptivly push it in game I will buy it otherwise I won't and will just enjoy the game as is and direct the occasional glare at in game DLC sellers.

#247
SheffSteel

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WishFish123 wrote...

PzR Slim wrote...

I have. I had to pay for those as well. I was amazed I didn't get the DM guide and MM for free when I bought the Players Guide. They even made me buy my own dice!!


But any pages missing from the books?


More to the point, did any of the books contain any ads for other books? Did any of the marketing materials ever imply that the game was less than complete if you didn't buy every rules supplement out there?

Evil. An RPG tradition. Image IPB

#248
Stormstrider32

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JackDresden wrote...

Ok my thoughts on this;

1. I think Dragon Age gives the best value for money of any game I have played in the past 5 years in terms of size, content and all round value for money.

2. I think the DLC is some what over priced for the amount of extra content it represents, but it's up to Bioware how they choose to price any types of add-in or extra content and up to each individual customer if they think it's worth paying for.

3. The Menu system for downloadable content is good.

4. In game selling of DLC by NPCs has really got me angry, now I have experienced it in game maybe people will stop telling me I cannot possibley know if it will get me angry without experience I can now report it does for the following reasons;

A.) Despite the size and value of the game this does make it seem incomplete the way they have woven in the NPC and the conversation makes you feel that you have an in character obligation to do the DLC, you are then told it's DLC and you have to buy it.

B.) The sales pitch is deceptive, you do not know it's DLC until you have had a long conversation with the NPC.

It's exactly as I thought except the NPC kind of follows you around in a way....which makes it even worse.

The only reason I will not by Wardens Keep is the deceptive sales pitch they have placed in game to try and sell it to me. For me that's cynical and intrusive selling gone much too far and is the only blemish on an otherwise epicly great game. To say I am disappointed in Bioware over this is putting it badly.

On the other hand generally I have nothing against them publishing DLC and pricing it however they like, then if I think it's good value and they don't try to deceptivly push it in game I will buy it otherwise I won't and will just enjoy the game as is and direct the occasional glare at in game DLC sellers.


Really man?  Really?  Take a good step back and think about life differently.  Its DLC with an NPC in game.  I suppose that pesky mouse arrow really ruins immersion too huh?  Yeah I hate how that mouse arrow takes away the fun.

#249
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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Stormstrider32 wrote...

Really man?  Really?  Take a good step back and think about life differently.  Its DLC with an NPC in game.  I suppose that pesky mouse arrow really ruins immersion too huh?  Yeah I hate how that mouse arrow takes away the fun.


What a pathetic comeback. The mouse arrow serves a massive purpose in game. The NPC trying to flog a DLC quest serves no purpose but to annoy the player unless you buy his stupid quest.

#250
PzR Slim

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SheffSteel wrote...

WishFish123 wrote...

PzR Slim wrote...

I have. I had to pay for those as well. I was amazed I didn't get the DM guide and MM for free when I bought the Players Guide. They even made me buy my own dice!!


But any pages missing from the books?


More to the point, did any of the books contain any ads for other books? Did any of the marketing materials ever imply that the game was less than complete if you didn't buy every rules supplement out there?

Evil. An RPG tradition. Image IPB


Yep, the players guide stated that I would need the DM Guide, MM and some dice to play and it might be useful and make the experience better if I got some tiles and minatures to play the game with. Whats more it even said that you could buy special D & D tiles and dice.