297 réponses à ce sujet

[JackDresden]

nothing3839 wrote...

xcorps wrote...

... I think it is inconsiderate of Bioware to ask for more money for above the premium price. And this is why in fact...I have started this thread. Where were we again?

They are offering additions to the premium content. Why would they NOT ask for money?

Because it is unjustified for all of the reasons me and others have expressed.  The content itself does not justify the price and it is a ****ty attitude to have toward your fans--I am yet to encounter some one that thinks that the aggressive ingame marketing is a good idea.   When EA became the Microsoft of the gaming industry they learned this lesson the hard way.  

You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Everyone knows EA releases ****ty products just because they can.  Their market share is so huge at this point that they don't even have to worry about quality control or the attitudes of the gaming community.  

Well if this is your belief I suggest you don't buy the DLC. You have the game you paid for, it's up to Bioware to decide if they want to provide add ons free or for cash, and it's up to each of us to choose if these add-ins are worth it.

I won't buy wardens keep for example because of the way it's sold to me some what deceptivley by an NPC in game, otherwise I probably would it sounds interesting to me.

[xcorps]

Lowlander wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

How dare those novel writers charge us for every book in a series!  They obviously had the whole story planned from the start, and knew they were going to keep adding to it!  I don't care that they have to keep writing it, and publishing it, and all of that - no, the fact that the one novel is "unfinished" because the characters and/or setting go on in another novel is ripping me off for forcing me to buy the next.

Except you miss the main issue completely. Almost everyone here that dislikes DLC wants real expansions. They are much more like new novels in a series.

Instead what we are getting after buying the novel, is(DLC): Oh BTW here is another chapter you can insert in your book.  Wait I already read the book, why am I getting stuff to put in the middle somewhere? Is this necessary? If so why wasn't it there in the first place. Is it pointless fluff, then why am I getting it all?

Expansion == Buying New novel in series. Yay!
DLC == Tiny insignificant chapter to add into the middle of the novel somewhere.  Boo!

Worse yet, because they can sell you tiny insignificant chapters(DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series. This is the part where it goes beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion.

Could you please provide the minutes from the meeting with the design team that you attended where a decision was reached not to create expansions?

[Eshme]

Warden keep costs 20% of the full game in my country, this isnt good.



And if there is a monster to slay i do it for fun only. Its all hype, the advertisement makes a huge story out of nothing like a horsearmor (lol tell anyone on the street you finally bought one and they send you straight into hospital).

[JackDresden]

nothing3839 wrote...

To your second point, do you honestly want url's to community sites ****ing about Beth's Oblivion and Fallout 3 DLC content?  I never made a numerical or statistical argument like you, because I know I do not have the data to support such an argument.  What I am saying is that there was much discontent as one other person on the forum mentioned.  

Simply put DLC's are always points of debate because most people believe that games these days are not cheep and asking additional money for models that are very easy to tack on to the game engine (I know enough about programing and third party mods to know this) is not exactly popular and always justified.  I think WK is a prefect example of this.  

The problem is that by your own admission companies produce DLC to make money, if it didn't sell they'd stop doing it because it wouldn't be worth doing if the cost of producing it was less than or equal to the money they made from it.

You know and I know many people agitate on forums in the hope of getting some free extra content, and that the number of people objecting on forums is always low compared to the total user base.

Now while I don't share you sense of entitlement, or hatred of DLC (I bought all the Oblivion DLC and still lookforward to the next ES game), I do object to the way it's marketed in game by NPCs and will not be buying Dragon Age DLC for that reason. But I have to say Dragon Age itself seems great value for money in terms of size and quality.

[SheffSteel]

xcorps wrote...

Could you please provide the minutes from the meeting with the design team that you attended where a decision was reached not to create expansions?

Short answer: no. Bioware has said that they're working on DLC of different sizes. I think it's a safe bet that they're not working on smaller items.

[mikey3k]

[quote]nothing3839 wrote...



[quote]GoldenusG wrote...

[quote]Georg Zoeller wrote...

See, a stunning number of people has bought DLC so far. Now we can blame all that on 'fanboism', but the truth is - we probably offered them something they were willing to pay for. That's called selling to customers and is what a business does.

DLC is here to stay, no way around that - the customers demand for it is there, and strong, and ultimately that is what is driving business decisions.
As long as there is customers who decide that what we offer is worth what we ask and buy it, there is no reason for us to not offer it, it would be a bad sense of business if we abandoned a market place that is not going away. This has nothing to do with EA, nothing to do with evil publishers bilking people for money, it has everything to do with the fact that there are enough customers voting with their wallet and buying the things we offer. [/quote]


Don't give the customers what they want.  Give them what they need.

Can't remember who originally said that so many years ago, but its still true today.

You could release a dozen mini DLC's with little content to them (Ala Warden's Keep), and some people will lap it up, gaining you a fat wad of cash.  But you'll put off just as many more.  Put more time into DLC though, have them as mini expansions rather than short quests.  Charge more for them, people will pay, and be mostly happy  (Some people enjoy ranting and complaining, and will always do so).  Carry on as you are, and people will lose faith and stop buying.  You then release a superb add-on, and few people will buy because, as I say, they are so used to disappointment.

This is one lesson Bethesda actually learnt between Fallout 3 and Oblivion.  Compare the DLC for the two.  Oblivion had mini quests.  Nice loot, cool buildings, no substance.  Result:  People are still moaning about it today.  Fallout 3?  Got off to a poor start with the DLC I'll admit (The game itself was solid, no more than that, and their patching non-existant), but the last few DLC's added a fair sized chunk, you could dig your teeth in and be happy with what you got.  To be honest, I'd like a few more, but Beth seem to have limitted themselves to the achievement point thingies you can get.


So, short term financial gain, versus long term loyalty.  Which do you think is worth more?[/quote]
[/quote]

In fact this is true.  Ultimately that was profitable in the short term for Beth, but the loss of loyalty proved a loss in the long term.  
[/quote]

Where are your hard numbers to prove "a loss in the long term"? You bagged on other people many times for not giving hard numbers to back up their statements. So where the heck are yours? Or did you just make that statement up with ZERO proof to back it up?

[Unbroken Lineage]

I like the game, and I will pay for more content. If I did not like the game, I would not pay for more content. Simple, really.

[SkippyMcGee88]

Lowlander wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

How dare those novel writers charge us for every book in a series!  They obviously had the whole story planned from the start, and knew they were going to keep adding to it!  I don't care that they have to keep writing it, and publishing it, and all of that - no, the fact that the one novel is "unfinished" because the characters and/or setting go on in another novel is ripping me off for forcing me to buy the next.

Except you miss the main issue completely. Almost everyone here that dislikes DLC wants real expansions. They are much more like new novels in a series.

Instead what we are getting after buying the novel, is(DLC): Oh BTW here is another chapter you can insert in your book.  WTF? I already read the book, why am I getting stuff to put in the middle somewhere? Is this necessary? If so why wasn't it there in the first place. Is it pointless fluff, then why am I getting it all?

Expansion == Buying New novel in series. Yay!
DLC == Tiny insignificant chapter to add into the middle of the novel somewhere.  Boo!

Worse yet, because they can sell you tiny insignificant chapters(DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series. This is the part where it goes beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion. People with low standards ruin it for everyone.

10/10...

That was very well said...

[JackDresden]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Ive got no problem with Bioware making DLC and making money from it. Heck, Ive even got no problem with them using time more effectively and releasing it when the game is (despite the well founded suspicions of holding back stuff that could have gone into the game that it creates).

No, the only thing bothered me about the DAO DLC fiasco is this pathetic and undignified "cold calling" that Bioware have undertaken. I dont know if thats what you call them in Canada and the US, or if you even get them. Those calls on your phone, and since you answer the phone, like you talk to an NPC in an RPG (because thats what they are for) you are disappointed and annoyed when it turns out to be a pathetic sales pitch.

Seriously, I cant see any gain from this ridiculous "in game advertising" that you could not already get from the regular online advertising, and that is spreading awareness. All you are doing thats new is insulting and offending some of the players who dont have the money or motivation to buy your 1-2 hour DLCs.

This whole fiasco has been one of many recently thats made me lose respect for Bioware.

By all means make money from DLC, whether at release or after. Just dont pester me when I paid for the damn game already, and dont want in game advertising spoiling the fun. Its just so..... petty.

The worst part is that as far as I know, this is planned for ME2 as well if I read some dev quotes right.

Is this just a coincidence, or does it have anything to do with EA calling the shots? Either way, I hate it, and would prefer Bioware not to pester me in game to purchase their DLC in future. Ill make the decision as an informed Bioware customer, not be insulted by having it flogged in a game I paid good money for already. I expected better than this.

I agree with you, DLC is fine this way of selling it is not, because of this I'm not buying any DLC or ME2 unless they revisit this really bad idea.

I wouldn't mind but there argument that players wouldn't find DLC without them pushin it in character in game is very much undermined by the fact that it's also in it's own area in the menu and pretty obvious and easy to find if you want too.

And having a highly emotive in character conversation with an NPC always in you camp which ends with the note that you have to buy something in real-life to act in character is insulting to me.

[mikey3k]

Raxxman wrote...

For me, and I've stated this a few times, the issue with the DLC isn't a cost over time edition. But rather the direction being taken with the content.

The tiny packets that Bioware are offering are an introduction of a worrying trend. Wardens Keep was tiny, and return to Ost so far has been stated that it's shorter. This hits out as disturbing for me because, as a fan of RPGs I like story. An hour long addon isn't going to bring much story with it, it simply can't, it's not long enough to do so.

I proposed a question which simply got buried under inane comments in the official question thread, which rather than challenge the costing/time ratio rather questioned the direction of the DLC. As I pointed out, the point and click adventure series has been brought back to life with the introduction of episodic content. As a marketing scheme this seems to be the perfect platform for a story driven game to springboard off. So the question comes down to why are Bioware sticking with a DLC scheme that wasn't very well received when used on Mass Effect? I just worry that the trend will bubble down to shorter and shorter DLCs, with reskinned loot becoming the only thinly dangled prize to entice you to buy.

As for fanboys, they'll always be around, they're not smart, and there's no point trying to engage in a dialogue with them, they've already made their mind up.

That goes both ways. As for haters, they'll always be around, they're not smart, and there's no point in trying to engage in a dialogue with them, they've already made their mind up.

Schyzm wrote...

Sashem wrote...

My main problem with the DLC is not the cost or if they cutted it out of the game or not before shipping (which I don't think they did) but how in-game NPCs try to sell you the DLC. I mean, someone who doesn't buy the DLC should see no trace of it in the game, it's common sense and how Bioware did it further reinforce the feeling that the DLC should have been in the game and not sold "on the side".

Personally I don't like DLC in general, on paper it was a good idea but some companies are starting to abuse of this system...

in 10 years all load screens will have 30 seconds advertisements.  bankit.

And doom n gloomers have been saying that for at least 5 years and it still isn't true. I'd suggest not using hyperbole to support your arguments, it does no favors.

Modifié par mikey3k, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[mikey3k]

Damn double post disease that is prevalent on this forum.

Modifié par mikey3k, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[Locain]

Lowlander wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

How dare those novel writers charge us for every book in a series!  They obviously had the whole story planned from the start, and knew they were going to keep adding to it!  I don't care that they have to keep writing it, and publishing it, and all of that - no, the fact that the one novel is "unfinished" because the characters and/or setting go on in another novel is ripping me off for forcing me to buy the next.

Except you miss the main issue completely. Almost everyone here that dislikes DLC wants real expansions. They are much more like new novels in a series.

Instead what we are getting after buying the novel, is(DLC): Oh BTW here is another chapter you can insert in your book.  WTF? I already read the book, why am I getting stuff to put in the middle somewhere? Is this necessary? If so why wasn't it there in the first place. Is it pointless fluff, then why am I getting it all?

Expansion == Buying New novel in series. Yay!
DLC == Tiny insignificant chapter to add into the middle of the novel somewhere.  Boo!

Worse yet, because they can sell you tiny insignificant chapters(DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series. This is the part where it goes beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion. People with low standards ruin it for everyone.

I have never agreed more with anyone on this forum. Well put Sir, I salute you.

[mikey3k]

WishFish123 wrote...

Godeshus wrote...

Right. Because DA:O without Dragon Armor is just like missing half your pizza. This truly has to be one of the stupidest analogies for anything I have ever heard. Ever.

Perhaps if you bought the game you would have been able to register it, then you would have been able to claim your Free DLC, which came with the game you would have purchased, and you wouldn't be complaining that you aren't getting more free stuff. You can take your 'this is disrespect towards buyers!' and shove it up your hypocritical ass with the rest of your torrents.

You obviously don't know what analogy means. Even better, you didn't write a single argument, only insults and one assumption - that i didn't buy the game - and here you failed also.

No, your analogy failed. So maybe you obviously do not know what it means. DA:O came with the whole pizza, cheese and all. They are offering you a choice of pepperoni for extra. Your analogy would work if the combat system was missing and you had to pay for it but that isn't the case. So your analogy fails because the cheese WASN'T missing.

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Stormstrider32 wrote...

Really man?  Really?  Take a good step back and think about life differently.  Its DLC with an NPC in game.  I suppose that pesky mouse arrow really ruins immersion too huh?  Yeah I hate how that mouse arrow takes away the fun.

What a pathetic comeback. The mouse arrow serves a massive purpose in game. The NPC trying to flog a DLC quest serves no purpose but to annoy the player unless you buy his stupid quest.

It serves the purpose of letting people get an a small in game backstory/tease for the DLC before they buy it and alerting more casual players about the DLC. Whether you like those purposes or don't agree with them is besides the point because your complaint was that they served no purpose.

Modifié par mikey3k, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:12 .

[SkippyMcGee88]

Lowlander wrote...

xcorps wrote...

Lowlander wrote...

Instead what we are getting after buying the novel, is(DLC): Oh BTW here is another chapter you can insert in your book.  Wait I already read the book, why am I getting stuff to put in the middle somewhere? Is this necessary? If so why wasn't it there in the first place. Is it pointless fluff, then why am I getting it all?

Expansion == Buying New novel in series. Yay!
DLC == Tiny insignificant chapter to add into the middle of the novel somewhere.  Boo!

Worse yet, because they can sell you tiny insignificant chapters(DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series. This is the part where it goes beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion.

Could you please provide the minutes from the meeting with the design team that you attended where a decision was reached not to create expansions?

The design team won't be making that decision. EA is a large corporation. It will place short term profit ahead of all other considerations, heck the last two CEOs came from Clorox, it isn't like it is some kind of create fun for gamers enterprise. It is a make dollars for shareholders enterprise.

DLC is higher return for less work (expense) so I see no financial incentive to produce an actual expansion, while you have people lapping up the low value crap. If there is a short term financial case for an expansion when people are paying $5 - $7 for swords and armor, I would like to see it explained.

You don't have to be in the meeting to see that selling 100 man hours of work for $7(DLC), is the case that is going to win over selling 2000 man hours for $30 (expansion) in the board room.

Sad but so freakin' true...

[entwood2]

For me it is simple. If a company supports their game and us with PATCHES then I am inclined to support them with purchasing DLC, assuming I like the game enough to want to continue on and I am interested in the specific DLC also.

Take Empire Total War for example, The stopped patching so I stopped buying.

I like my approach because it is a 2 way street and it may mean something to game companies that actively support their products or otherwise.

Modifié par entwood2, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:08 .

[boba1974]

Lowlander wrote...

The design team won't be making that decision. EA is a large corporation. It will place short term profit ahead of all other considerations, heck the last two CEOs came from Clorox, it isn't like it is some kind of create fun for gamers enterprise. It is a make dollars for shareholders enterprise.

DLC is higher return for less work (expense) so I see no financial incentive to produce an actual expansion, while you have people lapping up the low value crap. If there is a short term financial case for an expansion when people are paying $5 - $7 for swords and armor, I would like to see it explained.

You don't have to be in the meeting to see that selling 100 man hours of work for $7(DLC), is the case that is going to win over selling 2000 man hours for $30 (expansion) in the board room.

Releasing DLC does not preclude Bioware from also relasing an expansion pack, so you're argument doesn't hold water. Ever hear of a little game called Oblivion? It's released quite a bit of DLC, and yet Bethesda released an expansion pack as well. 

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario.

Modifié par boba1974, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[Eurypterid]

Lowlander wrote...

Except you miss the main issue completely. Almost everyone here that dislikes DLC wants real expansions. They are much more like new novels in a series.

Instead what we are getting after buying the novel, is(DLC): Oh BTW here is another chapter you can insert in your book.  WTF? I already read the book, why am I getting stuff to put in the middle somewhere? Is this necessary? If so why wasn't it there in the first place. Is it pointless fluff, then why am I getting it all?

Expansion == Buying New novel in series. Yay!
DLC == Tiny insignificant chapter to add into the middle of the novel somewhere.  Boo!

I've seen this done with novels as well, where you can buy an anthology of short stories and get some set in the same universe as an author's novels and even follow the same main characters, or some minor ones. Still 'boo'?

Worse yet, because they can sell you tiny insignificant chapters(DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series. This is the part where it goes beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion. People with low standards ruin it for everyone.

This doesn't necessarily follow. Since the DLC team is a completely separate entitiy from the game development teams, the presence of one does not preclude the other. If the game sells well, you can be pretty certain they'll be looking at expansions too, since it's another revenue steam for them. DLC does not replace what you can get in an expansion. They're different markets. If there's profit to be made with expansions, you can be sure they'll look at it.

[ChaosInc80]

nothing3839 wrote...

I am very disappointed by the community's discussion regarding the downloadable content in Dragonage and Bioware's decision to charge additional cost. I should say that I am disappointed by the lack of discussion.  A few threads that have been opened by people who are critical of the cost as well as the aggressive ingame marketing of the additional content have usually been flamed by the vast hordes of Bioware fanboys and the usual "no one is forcing you to buy the game..." arguments.  You know, I really expected a more critical and pro-consumer response from the gaming community.  $50 to $60 is not a small amount of money to pay for a limited user licence for a peace of software (thats right, limited user licence, not ownership, read your user agreement) and charging money for several hours of additional content is not considerate toward the average gamer's budget.  In my opinion this is a clear example of an industry wide trend of developing new strategies and schemes to extract as much money as possible for the consumer.  
I guess this was only the next step for an industry that is accustomed to releasing broken or unfinished products, charging full price, and then "fixing" the problems though a series of downloadable patches for months or years (oh and Dragonage has is fare share of bugs).  I just expected more from this community than "...Bioware is awesome...no one forced you to buy..."

Welcome to the business world.  Don't like it?  Go kill yourself then, cause that's the way the world works, like it or not.

Then again, I wouldn't expect those who live under bridges and charge crossing tolls to understand this.

[marlowwe]

MerinTB wrote...

How dare those novel writers charge us for every book in a series!  They obviously had the whole story planned from the start, and knew they were going to keep adding to it!  I don't care that they have to keep writing it, and publishing it, and all of that - no, the fact that the one novel is "unfinished" because the characters and/or setting go on in another novel is ripping me off for forcing me to buy the next.
R.A. Salvatore should refund everyone who bought any of the Drizzt books after Crystal Shard!  The con artist!

And those movie makers - the ones who have the sequels and trilogies and such!  How dare they charge me another movie ticket for the next film in a series!  What does it matter that the actors, writers, producers, camera people, etc., had to work on the next film?  It is clear to me that they had a whole bunch of stuff they were going to do with those characters / plots / worlds and only gave it to us piecemeal in bits and chunks!   Seriously, $10 for about 2 hours of entertainment and THEN they expect me to pay $10 for 2 more hours that should really have been part of the first film?!?  And don't get me started on "1 DVD per movie" rip-offs!

Dang it, while we're at it, how about those comic books, huh?  These writers and editors and publishing companies, they have story arcs and crossover events planned for years in advance!  They KNOW that several issues combine into one story, and a whole series revolving around one character or group of characters are, you know, revolving around those characters and are all part of one big product.  But then they make me pay $3 or $4 dollars per 20-30 pages!  I don't care that artists, writers, inkers, etc., have to work on each issue - they are part of one story, overall, and should be given to me all at one for one price!

What, I can wait for compilation books for trilogies of novels, or box sets of a movie series, or a trade paperback of a given comic book's story arc for cheaper as one product if I just wait, like computer games will collect expansion packs and DLC into one purchaseable product for a big discount if I just wait a year or so?  You want me to WAIT when the game is out now?!?  They should put it out in the compilation format, for the super-cheap price, immediately.  Honestly, why should I pay $50-$60 dollars for the game at release date and then $5-$10 per DLC and $20-$40 per expansion when someone who waited to pick up the game 2-4 years after release can get it all for like $20-$40?  I should get it IMMEDIATELY for that price.

You simply don't understand the argument coming from the other side. The issue at hand is not one of a false sense of entitlement but of value. I’ll address one of your analogies.
Let’s look at the issue from the perspective of a movie maker. I paid $43 for Dragon Age so the DLC is about 1/6th of the full price of the game ($7/$43). From the responses of people who played the DLC, it adds about half an hour of gameplay. Let’s also assume the game itself lasts a player 80 hours. The proportion of DLC time to game time is 30 minutes / 80 hours which is 0.00625 – in other words Warden’s Keep is 0.625% of the full game.  Extending that to your movie analogy that would be like going to see a 90 minute movie and seeing an ad halfway through asking if you want to see some bonus material that lasts 0.625% * 90 minutes or 34 seconds for only $1.67! That is not value.

Modifié par marlowwe, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[kevinblue360]

But see, to me I think DLC is worth it because now I get to extend my Dragon Age universe. I will pay for them because they made them, so if I want it I will have to buy it. And just because you and others here are very, very vocal doesn't mean that you are the majority. What is worth it to you, may be different for me and vice versa.