297 réponses à ce sujet

[mikey3k]

Lowlander wrote...

sprybry wrote...

worse yet, because they can't sell you tiny insignificant chapters (DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series.  this is the part where it doesn't go beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions don't buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion.  people with low common sense ruin it for everyone.

There is no cause and effect reasoning in your post.

According to recent interview, they sold "millions of copies" of DA.  Now that the engine is out there, if they couldn't turn the easy money crank on DLC, they would be working like mad to create an expansion to leverage that installed base. An expansion is still a lot less work than a new game.

But now they found something even less work than expansions, the pressure is off, they can take their time making an expansion because they can make easy money selling your swords and armor. Maybe they will do and expansion, maybe they won't, but the urgency to do one and the bottom line financial incentive is now massively lower.

Games have been moving away from expansion packs for at least 5 years. This isn't a new thing. I can count on my hands games in the past 5+ years that have had expansion packs. Most of them are RTS games or MMOs.

[mikey3k]

ugh I hate when clicking submit and nothing happens so you click it again and 2 posts show up.

Modifié par mikey3k, 23 novembre 2009 - 05:42 .

[Eurypterid]

Lowlander wrote...

There is no cause and effect reasoning in your post.

According to recent interview, they sold "millions of copies" of DA.  Now that the engine is out there, if they couldn't turn the easy money crank on DLC, they would be working like mad to create an expansion to leverage that installed base. An expansion is still a lot less work than a new game.

You're assuming they're not. I don't know either way, but why are you assuming no expansion is in the works?

But now they found something even less work than expansions, the pressure is off, they can take their time making an expansion because they can make easy money selling your swords and armor. Maybe they will do and expansion, maybe they won't, but the urgency to do one and the bottom line financial incentive is now massively lower.

That's not necessarily so either. Just because DLC, which is made by a separate team, is doing well, doesn't mean an expansion is nixed, on hold, or delayed. Why would you assume it does?

[Andat]

marlowwe wrote...
You simply don't understand the argument coming from the other side. The issue at hand is not one of a false sense of entitlement but of value. I’ll address one of your analogies.
Let’s look at the issue from the perspective of a movie maker. I paid $43 for Dragon Age so the DLC is about 1/6th of the full price of the game ($7/$43). From the responses of people who played the DLC, it adds about half an hour of gameplay. Let’s also assume the game itself lasts a player 80 hours. The proportion of DLC time to game time is 30 minutes / 80 hours which is 0.00625 – in other words Warden’s Keep is 0.625% of the full game.  Extending that to your movie analogy that would be like going to see a 90 minute movie and seeing an ad halfway through asking if you want to see some bonus material that lasts 0.625% * 90 minutes or 34 seconds for only $1.67! That is not value.

It's not that people don't understand - some people simply put a different value on the original content and on the extra content.  I enjoyed it, so it's worth it.  Other people enjoyed the new content less that I did, so to them it's not worth it - either way, the terms must have been acceptable at the point of purchase or people wouldn't have bought the game.

In fact, following the movie analogy, DVDs and BluRays already do something similar.  You could get the Director's cut which costs an extra £3-£5 and contains an extra 10 minutes of footage.

Besides, I think your numbering's off - I think the packs add a lot more than a half hour of play time.  I think you'd struggle to get either of the quests done in a half hour (well, maybe on easy) and that doesn't even take into account the personal quest for Shale, or the time with Shale as a companion (which can't really be calculated since it depends how you count it - there's obviously other stuff going on, but Shale has its own dialog and input into various quest situations etc).

[xjchcxx]

lol this is funny.



i like how we are quantifying value by length of time added to gameplay... Perhaps that's one key point. Shale and his two quest add a significant amount of gameplay, but I could see someone arguing that $15 is a lot to pay for it. (aren't you glad you bought the game and it was free?)



Before you make a selfish complaint about that a video game developer is robbing you through DLC, please consider what said video game developer has to go through to provide that DLC... creating new maps takes time, new textures, new area effects, etc. Creating new weapons and armor (wardens keep) takes time, especially when each set of armor is really six sets of armor(male/female, human/elf/dwarf) voice actors aren't cheap, well good ones... (shale was done really well btw...) Have you ever created a 3D environment by hand? to press the point further, ever tried developing a 3d hand, by hand? point is: done well, it takes time, aka money.



Its extremely selfish to consider that the DLC should solely be priced based on how long it takes you to progress through it; however, it would be a little more wise to consider what was put into the DLC. Bioware puts quality into their products and i'm sure there have been many meetings discussing just what price to attach to your DLC.. For one, I'm glad to pay a little extra money for DLC because it means my favorite game developers can continue to make my favorite games in the future.. As far as I know, Bioware was not a part of the massive EA lay off, and games like DA:O are the reason for that.



I think the people complaining my favor something like a special item store, where they can buy maric's sword, or the kings armor, for $1 or so.. but isn't that a little bland? I mean, we're not playing fable...

[xjchcxx]

lol this is funny.



i like how we are quantifying value by length of time added to gameplay... Perhaps that's one key point. Shale and his two quest add a significant amount of gameplay, but I could see someone arguing that $15 is a lot to pay for it. (aren't you glad you bought the game and it was free?)



Before you make a selfish complaint about that a video game developer is robbing you through DLC, please consider what said video game developer has to go through to provide that DLC... creating new maps takes time, new textures, new area effects, etc. Creating new weapons and armor (wardens keep) takes time, especially when each set of armor is really six sets of armor(male/female, human/elf/dwarf) voice actors aren't cheap, well good ones... (shale was done really well btw...) Have you ever created a 3D environment by hand? to press the point further, ever tried developing a 3d hand, by hand? point is: done well, it takes time, aka money.



Its extremely selfish to consider that the DLC should solely be priced based on how long it takes you to progress through it; however, it would be a little more wise to consider what was put into the DLC. Bioware puts quality into their products and i'm sure there have been many meetings discussing just what price to attach to your DLC.. For one, I'm glad to pay a little extra money for DLC because it means my favorite game developers can continue to make my favorite games in the future.. As far as I know, Bioware was not a part of the massive EA lay off, and games like DA:O are the reason for that.



I think the people complaining my favor something like a special item store, where they can buy maric's sword, or the kings armor, for $1 or so.. but isn't that a little bland? I mean, we're not playing fable...

[Andat]

marlowwe wrote...
You simply don't understand the argument coming from the other side. The issue at hand is not one of a false sense of entitlement but of value. I’ll address one of your analogies.
Let’s look at the issue from the perspective of a movie maker. I paid $43 for Dragon Age so the DLC is about 1/6th of the full price of the game ($7/$43). From the responses of people who played the DLC, it adds about half an hour of gameplay. Let’s also assume the game itself lasts a player 80 hours. The proportion of DLC time to game time is 30 minutes / 80 hours which is 0.00625 – in other words Warden’s Keep is 0.625% of the full game.  Extending that to your movie analogy that would be like going to see a 90 minute movie and seeing an ad halfway through asking if you want to see some bonus material that lasts 0.625% * 90 minutes or 34 seconds for only $1.67! That is not value.

It's not that people don't understand - some people simply put a different value on the original content and on the extra content.  I enjoyed it, so it's worth it.  Other people enjoyed the new content less that I did, so to them it's not worth it - either way, the terms must have been acceptable at the point of purchase or people wouldn't have bought the game.

In fact, following the movie analogy, DVDs and BluRays already do something similar.  You could get the Director's cut which costs an extra £3-£5 and contains an extra 10 minutes of footage.

Besides, I think your numbering's off - I think the packs add a lot more than a half hour of play time.  I think you'd struggle to get either of the quests done in a half hour (well, maybe on easy) and that doesn't even take into account the personal quest for Shale, or the time with Shale as a companion (which can't really be calculated since it depends how you count it - there's obviously other stuff going on, but Shale has its own dialog and input into various quest situations etc).

[Eurypterid]

Lowlander wrote...

I have never seen it dropped as a missing chapter into the middle of a an novel. It is  more like a new story stand alone story, apart from a novel. Even a mini expansion outside of the main game would be better than the current DLC, inserting chapters into an old book approach.

That's a matter of perception. I don't see the current for-purchase DLC for DA as a 'missing chapter'. It just adds to the story; it's not necessary to have it in order to have a complete story.

Having been a software developer for 14+ years, I seriously doubt the "completely separate teams" line. I have never seen anything like that in my experience. People move to the hot project at the drop of a hat. I have been moved between projects twice in the same week. There is also considerable overlap between your old job and your new job.

I'm just going by what the devs have stated: that the DLC team is completely separate from the game development team. Unless you believe they're misleading us?

The necessity and desirability of an expansion product will always be based on the bottom line of a spread sheet that will factor the amount of money it will make vs having those people work on horse armor.

The number crunching may show that DLC for the next two years followed by DA2 is the most profitable way to go, and if so that is what we will get.

My real hope is that the market for inserting more chapter in the same book will dry up as it requires people to go back and replay the campaign again, which is a dwindling market so at least some future DLC will have to start taking place outside the campaign or post campaign.

You don't have to replay the game in order to play the DLC. You can go from the autosave right before the final battle if you want to.

Modifié par Eurypterid, 23 novembre 2009 - 06:18 .

[jsog]

It would be nice if we could get some reassurance that DLCs are not replacing expansions. The latest posts in the other thread about how the timeline is such that we shouldn't expect an expansion announcement already is fine and good, but I don't really think there has been a Bioware game with the same kind of DLC setup recently (at least, not in the first installment of the game anyway)



I believe the devs that the DLC team is separate from the development team, I just hope that we hear about an expansion soon...

[Rylor Tormtor]

WishFish123 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

WishFish123 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

But what do you aim to accomplish? You've already gotten the answer from BioWare in this very forum: They don't care that you or I are unhappy. All that matters are the numbers, and so far they justify the way they've embarked upon.

Link please.

Uh, page 3 of this very thread? As well as several replies in some of the countless other DLC threads.

Oh, i just read that post from Bioware. I was very sad to read that.

"We will do what we can sell most" is not really something that should be heard from company that aims for the quality.

EDIT: i'm suprised how strongly the posters here are orientated toward economy, capitalism, money and so on.
For god sake i thought you are roleplayers. Dreamers, idealists, people with souls. RPG, role playing game. Anyone? Anyone ever played pen&paper RPG here?

Damn, you are really are a solipsistic moron aren't you? Bioware will produce
the kind of content that will sell the most to their customers. Now, I am about
as left-wing as you get, and I don't think socialism is a bad word. I also
think that capitalism works well as a business model
(as opposed to a life-style choice). Guess what content sells the best for
Bioware?



High quality RPG content.



If you don't think so, that is right. However, you are in the minority. It
doesn't matter that you think you aren't. The success of DLC for DA:O is self
evident. For example www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragonage/news.html on the "viability" of DLC. Developers have posted that their customer base wants this. You don't want
it. Maybe you aren't their customer base?



Oh, and some people' opinions are wrong. Stop with the mamby pamby all our
opinions are equally valid crap. Opinions that are backed up with well
constructed arguments are valid. I can have the opinion my farts smell like
fresh baked cinnamon cookies, that don't make it true.

EDIT: Ugh, apologies for the formatting nightmare.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:25 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

Lowlander wrote...

sprybry wrote...

worse yet, because they can't sell you tiny insignificant chapters (DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series.  this is the part where it doesn't go beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions don't buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion.  people with low common sense ruin it for everyone.

There is no cause and effect reasoning in your post.

According to recent interview, they sold "millions of copies" of DA.  Now that the engine is out there, if they couldn't turn the easy money crank on DLC, they would be working like mad to create an expansion to leverage that installed base. An expansion is still a lot less work than a new game.

But now they found something even less work than expansions, the pressure is off, they can take their time making an expansion because they can make easy money selling your swords and armor. Maybe they will do and expansion, maybe they won't, but the urgency to do one and the bottom line financial incentive is now massively lower.

Read Georg's quote. He implied that they are working on a Expansion.

[Avispex]

When you consider the cost of other types of entertainment, I think a few dollars for additional chapters is pretty fair.

[ComputerEd]

I cannot believe what people will complain about. They will crap out money to buy beer and then complain that a game costs to much becuase they do not get enough from it. If the $7 fee for the DLC is to much for you then you should be worried about your fiances more and not gaming at all. Most people that have real lives and jobs crap away $7 on stuff a lot less useful than the DLC.



If you do not like it then do not buy it, how much more simple can it be. Bioware owes you NOTHING and yet you act like they owe you everything.



Get a life and move on, enjoy the game and play or dont and then move to another but please dear god people quit feeding this troll.

[ladydesire]

Eurypterid wrote...

Lowlander wrote...

Except you miss the main issue completely. Almost everyone here that dislikes DLC wants real expansions. They are much more like new novels in a series.

Instead what we are getting after buying the novel, is(DLC): Oh BTW here is another chapter you can insert in your book.  WTF? I already read the book, why am I getting stuff to put in the middle somewhere? Is this necessary? If so why wasn't it there in the first place. Is it pointless fluff, then why am I getting it all?

Expansion == Buying New novel in series. Yay!
DLC == Tiny insignificant chapter to add into the middle of the novel somewhere.  Boo!

I've seen this done with novels as well, where you can buy an anthology of short stories and get some set in the same universe as an author's novels and even follow the same main characters, or some minor ones. Still 'boo'?

What about buying a full book that also has the full text of a story that was originally only available as an ebook? I've seen that too.

Worse yet, because they can sell you tiny insignificant chapters(DLC), they have ZERO incentive to provide another real novel (expansion) in the series. This is the part where it goes beyond, don't like it, don't buy it, because if enough people who don't think about the consequences of their actions buy DLC, we won't get anything like a proper expansion. People with low standards ruin it for everyone.

This doesn't necessarily follow. Since the DLC team is a completely separate entitiy from the game development teams, the presence of one does not preclude the other. If the game sells well, you can be pretty certain they'll be looking at expansions too, since it's another revenue steam for them. DLC does not replace what you can get in an expansion. They're different markets. If there's profit to be made with expansions, you can be sure they'll look at it.

Not only that, since DA has a toolset for the PC, like NWN and NWN2 had (not to mention the ones for TES and possibly FO3), the console players would get shafted if there was nothing available for them until an expansion.

[ladydesire]

Lowlander wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...
I've seen this done with novels as well, where you can buy an anthology of short stories and get some set in the same universe as an author's novels and even follow the same main characters, or some minor ones. Still 'boo'?

I have never seen it dropped as a missing chapter into the middle of a an novel. It is  more like a new story stand alone story, apart from a novel. Even a mini expansion outside of the main game would be better than the current DLC, inserting chapters into an old book approach.

In the case of Stone Prisoner, it's more like George Lucas adding a previously deleted scene to Star Wars: A New Hope (which actually did happen, by the way).

[Gabo]

nothing3839 wrote...

I am very disappointed by the community's discussion regarding the downloadable content in Dragonage and Bioware's decision to charge additional cost. I should say that I am disappointed by the lack of discussion.  A few threads that have been opened by people who are critical of the cost as well as the aggressive ingame marketing of the additional content have usually been flamed by the vast hordes of Bioware fanboys and the usual "no one is forcing you to buy the game..." arguments.  You know, I really expected a more critical and pro-consumer response from the gaming community.  $50 to $60 is not a small amount of money to pay for a limited user licence for a peace of software (thats right, limited user licence, not ownership, read your user agreement) and charging money for several hours of additional content is not considerate toward the average gamer's budget.  In my opinion this is a clear example of an industry wide trend of developing new strategies and schemes to extract as much money as possible for the consumer.  
I guess this was only the next step for an industry that is accustomed to releasing broken or unfinished products, charging full price, and then "fixing" the problems though a series of downloadable patches for months or years (oh and Dragonage has is fare share of bugs).  I just expected more from this community than "...Bioware is awesome...no one forced you to buy..."

Enough already guys! 

It sounds like EA is the government and DLC is an issue that affects your personal life like taxes, healthcare and education.

That's not the situation and you know it. Video games are luxury products of entertainment and, under our current governments, companies have the right to charge whatever they want for them. Whether people buy them and the products make enough money will dictate what works and what doesn't.

However, these negative posts are full of speculation and opinions written as if they were the full truth. Take for example: "charging money for several hours of additional content is not considerate toward the average gamer's budget". What set of rules make it so that its an "inconsiderate" action? What is the "average gamer's" budget? But lets not go there, I don't need an answer, I just want to make a point that there are a lot of posts that are just stating stuff pulled out of a hat. 

The fact that my post will appear on page 12 or 13 of one of many DLC threads indicates just how much interest this topic is and so I will continue to try to explain some things:

For starters, the game just came out a few weeks ago. Just how much stuff do you think we can do release in that time. There have been a few patches and some small DLC modules. The patches are needed to fix some of the bugs that went through and are free, I believe people are happy with that. The DLC modules are offered to that large majority of customers that are happy to have a couple of hours more to play with. And no, these modules were not ripped out of the game so we could sell then for additional money. If that was the case, a better idea would have been to just not do them at all and have the game out quicker.

If you are not believing what we are saying to answer these questions, is it even worth writing in the forums at all?

Of course, a very valid concern is to think that Bioware is only working on these small modules (since they are selling well) and is not doing other things that might be more attractive to a certain vocal group found in these forums. Well, feedback is what these forums are for, and we are listening. 

If creating a bigger expansion pack is viable then there is always a possibility of it happening but don't expect something like that to come out just 3 weeks after the game launched.

The guy who who indicates the existence of the extra DLC is bothering you? Well, thanks for your feedback its been duly noted. Perhaps you would appreciate DLC if the quests were longer? We're listening. 

But why would you want us to just stop selling DLC or why would we give it for free? We make DLC because people (lots of people) want it, and we sell it because the developers need wages, among other costs that go into making the product. If you are worried that we are working on DLC that you don't want instead of doing things that you do want, worry not, there are various teams working on stuff and if we hear the proper feedback and its something that is feasible, we may just work on it. And by the way, aside from the free DLC that you did get when you bought the game, there will be lots of free DLC from modders who just have fun making levels and additions to the game (and have other ways to get money for food).

The bottom line is: please stop inventing that we are evil and just in this for the money and instead give us feedback so that we can make things better for you. Bioware has always been a very fan oriented company and we continue to try to make the best games possible and are very proud of our results and our loyal fan base. 

[LFDog]

1) I am not a "fanboy"

2) I liked the DLC

3) I was okay with the price



Sorry if any of the above causes you grief or disapointment.



I respect your right to an opinion. My opinion is not the same as yours.

[LFDog]

Feedback for BioWare:



- I liked the Stone Prisoner better than the Warden's Keep. The main reason was the better integration to the main game and the extra content that became available after aquiring a new NPC.



- I like DLC that unlocks abilities, story-lines and NPCs more than simple "items grabs". It's more fun if the "reward" for doing the extra content is more persistant and fun.



Over-all, I really enjoy both the concept and execution of the DLC.



In the future, I would like DLC to provide new adventures and areas, while have expanion packs focus on new races and classes.



Also, I want to go to Atlantis. I want an under-water city to explore. With a mermaid NPC. Plus a lot of freaky, half-decayed scary dead under-water people. Please have that for me next week - 'kay?

[Sashem]

Like I said a couple of pages ago, the only thing that bothered me about Dragon Age DLC was the NPC trying to sell it to you and the fact that you missed out on some content was indicated in the game.



But, personally, I think the price of the DLC at the moment is fair for what we get. Other companies have released far less content for a bigger price. Still I would prefer an expansion pack like Mask of the Betrayer for NWN2. Sometimes, even if we get the same amount of content of an expansion pack for the same price splitted amongst various DLC modules it doesn't feel as good as a whole new focused adventure.

[Meneldhil]

Do people realize that after buying return to Ostragar, they will effectively have paid 15+5+5=25 bucks, which is almost the price of a real expansion.



Thing is

Warden's Keep lasts 25 minutes, and Stone Prisoner around 1.5 hours (counting doing all of Shale's dialogues). I roughly expect RtO to be more of the same.

So for the price of a traditional expension, you get 2 hours of gameplay instead of 15.



That's why DLC are pretty bad. Now, I'm fully aware that "companies have to make money". Everyone has to make money. But there are ways to make money. The newly born DLC trend is a shameful one.

DLC's are simply meant to increase the profits of shareholders and executives. These people, who have no clue about what a video game is, are slowly taking over the industry, like a plague. And they are killing the video game industry, just like they killed the music and movie industry. They never have enough money, never make enough profit. They consider us as morons and potential criminals ("onoes, do not copy my game, or I'm going to prevent you from installing it more than thrice"). They think video games' only aim is to fill their pockets. And they won't ever stop, if we don't make our voice heard.

Video games developpers, on the other hand, are payed with rocks even though they have a quite stressful (but I guess entertaining) job.



I seriously have no issue buying DA. I've been a big fan of Bioware since BG1, like the game and think it's worth my money. But these DLC's? They're here to milk us, as hard as possible.



I can understand that people enjoy them (I did), but that shouldn't prevent them from seeing the truth. We're being ripped off. And if we accept this without even trying to stop it, they'll find something else to rip us even more.

[Stanley Woo]

And we're done. Let's roll this discussion into this thread, which discusses the kinds of DLC our players actually want. Thank you.



ENd of line.