297 réponses à ce sujet

[nothing3839]

bjdbwea wrote...

Yes, it sucks. Yes, it will probably get worse. No, there's nothing you or I can do about that except not buying it. Not much use in telling BioWare about that plan though, they'll judge the degree of acceptance only from the sales numbers and decide from there how to proceed. Throughout history, companies have thought to have found the ultimate idea to milk their customers, but often enough the customers have surprised them.

Agreed.

[KalosCast]

Locain wrote...

I agree with GoldenusG..

less frequent but more substansive Expansions (DLC's)

This.

There's nothing wrong with the Downloadable Content model, it's the way companies are utilizing it. I'll never buy Warden's Keep because I see it as the same thing as the first 8 or so DLC's released for Oblivion, completely lacking in content (almost all of them being houses). And that's cool, noboy is making me buy WK and I don't feel like I'm missing out on a thing by not having it. However, once Knights of the Nine rolled around, with a long quest chain, interesting gear, and a new faction, it was totally worth $10.

Most of the issue lies in the fact that if content is less than $10, most people assume that the content itself is garbage (which they may or may not have a point on...), so yes, something more along the lines of a "mini expansion pack" instead of "kill more **** and get a storage chest" would be worth the money.

It remains to be seen how Return to Ostagar fairs.

[Red-Cell]

It's ok, gaming has been taken over by number crunchers, marketing, and non gamers.



Bioware started the whole paid DLC trend years ago with NWN modules. It's pretty sad a lot of game developers don't have actual gamers in them making the decisions any longer.



There are those PC developers that are still ran by gamers that offer free quality DLC and don't simply charge and withhold because they can. Games created by gamers for gamers are a rarity now days unfortunately. I'm surprised the game tools weren't sold.

[xcorps]

I'm surprised the game tools weren't sold.

Don't doubt that they had discussions about that very subject, likely heated.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

nothing3839 wrote...

Regarding the development to cost ratio, you are certain of those numbers?  90%?  Why don't you look at the number of copies sold and the net profit for this release beafore you speak so authoritatively.  

Because such numbers as "net profit" don't usually get released, and even if they did the fact still stands that game development cost more than ever and the current business model is not sustainable.  

nothing3839 wrote...
Would it not be good marketing strategy to pitch the downloadable content as "free" and thus increase product sales?

It's arguable if free DLC ever increases sales, there's no definitive proof that it does.  I think it's safe to say however that the good press does not garner enough sales to even begin to compare to the profit made off of DLC, which for most games is quite substantial.  I suspect for something like Dragon Age however having to pay voice actors in addition to the development team itself results in less profit than say a map pack for Call of Duty.

nothing3839 wrote...
What exactly are my "entitlement" issues?  Do I have a sense of entitlement or do you simply lack one?

You seem to expect content to either be free and criticize Bioware for adopting a DLC model.

DLC is not a "Hey look at how we can make EVEN MORE MONEY" it's a solution developed to mitigate the effects of a failing business model that is suffocating itself with absurd development cost, a thriving second-hand market and piracy.  

Ever look at the credits for a retail game? Those are all people who had to be paid for 2 years (average life of a games development, some games take longer though)  Not even including software cost, marketing (purchasing ad space)  and packaging/retail cost.  

[KalosCast]

Red-Cell wrote...
There are those PC developers that are still ran by gamers that offer free quality DLC and don't simply charge and withhold because they can. Games created by gamers for gamers are a rarity now days unfortunately. I'm surprised the game tools weren't sold.

And speaking of the game tools, any game with powerful tools always spawns an ambitious mod community, so even if you're anti-DLC, the community will probably be pumping out things of extremely high quality as well as rebalances of your personal gripes all for free if you just give them enough time to do so. Expanding your experience without costing you a single penny.

[Georg Zoeller]

Starting off the discussion by claiming anyone who does not oppose DLC is a fanboi, a term that suggests a lacking capacity for critical thinking isn't the greatest way to actually get the discussion you want.

See, a stunning number of people has bought DLC so far. Now we can blame all that on 'fanboism', but the truth is - we probably offered them something they were willing to pay for. That's called selling to customers and is what a business does.

DLC is here to stay, no way around that - the customers demand for it is there, and strong, and ultimately that is what is driving business decisions.

I can go back into our forum archives and dig out all the threads to declared the impending doom of the games industry at the hands of Steam in 2003 and then look at the sales we do in digital distributions on steam today and I can get a pretty good picture about how much impact a pure 'I oppose DLC on principle'  stance will have - none.

As long as there is customers who decide that what we offer is worth what we ask and buy it, there is no reason for us to not offer it, it would be a bad sense of business if we abandoned a market place that is not going away. This has nothing to do with EA, nothing to do with evil publishers bilking people for money, it has everything to do with the fact that there are enough customers voting with their wallet and buying the things we offer.

There is no point in approaching this discussion from an ideological angle, because the practical implications of a digital distribution model are too beneficial for developers (reduced risk, greater freedom to create content aimed at smaller audiences, cutting out the middle man) and customers (no need to drive to store, no disk scratching and similar issues, automatic delivery of patches) for it to go way. If anything, boxed copies are going away.

What needs to be discussed is the type of content people want to see and buy and the way it is integrated in games. It's a new field in the industry, everyone is experimenting and customer feedback is crucial for developing the ground rules that will define how this goes forward.

Standing on the sidelines and refusing DLC is a valid approach - but if the demand is 'I want to stop BioWare from doing DLC' or 'I deserve this content for free' - it's absolutely doomed to failure, because there are just too many people willing to pay for it and a business would be stupid not to create content to satisfy that demand. As I've said before - the success of DLC is not a majority vote, it's purely a question of whether enough people are supporting it for it to be an additional source of revenue, and that question has already been answered.

Modifié par Georg Zoeller, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:13 .

[BrowncoatGR]

Honestly guys, if you're patient enough at some point they'll bundle all the DLCs and make an expansion pack just like Bethesda did with FO3.

[Rexxean]

I think Return to Ostagar will settle this debate .. I'm sure bioware knows if they make this a ripoff DLC' there DLC model is gonna die. Keep in mind alot ppl playing DAO are new to DLC to not know of NWN model or Oblivion mini's add-ons.



So I really think Return to Ostagar is vital for them. If they want to keep alot of ppl buying DLC

[KalosCast]

To Bioware: an official company response is like a troll's/doomsayer's wet dream. Consider not feeding them.

[boba1974]

nothing3839 wrote...
 
Charging additional costs on top of the original costs is not intended to pay anyones salary.  It is intended to increase of profits of shareholders as much as possible at the expense of people like you and me.  You should know this since you stressed how Bioware is a "company".  

Wrong. There is a DLC content team that does nothing but make DLC items. You don't think these people need to get paid? Their continued content wont pay for itself.

nothing3839 wrote...

Regarding the development to cost
ratio, you are certain of those numbers?  90%?  Why don't you look at
the number of copies sold and the net profit for this release beafore
you speak so authoritatively.  

Would it not be good marketing strategy to pitch the downloadable content as "free" and thus increase product sales?

What exactly are my "entitlement" issues?  Do I have a sense of entitlement or do you simply lack one?

He's right, a large majority of games don't ever make thier development costs back, that's a fact. We have no clue what Dragon Age cost to develop, but chances are it would have to sell millions of copies just to break even. DLC while still costing money to develop, has a higher profit margin, which would allow the company to add content while making a profit, so no, giving it away for free is a not good marketing strategy.

You're entitlement issue is the fact that you expect these developers to keep working for you and giving you content long after they've given you what you paid for. You bought and paid for the content that's on the disk or that you downloaded, after that they don't owe you a single piece of content. DLC is a way for Bioware to keep adding to the game, and customers to have options if they want that new content. Would you rather there was no DLC at all and Bioware moved on to the next game? Because that's your other choice, new paid content or no new content at all.

You get sick of hearing, "no on is forcing you to buy it"?, well guess what, we get sick of having to tell you! You bought Dragon Age, and that's what you got. Anything that gets released after that point isn't part of your purchase, deal with it.
Only someone with entitlement issues would buy a game with 100+ hours of content and then **** about having to buy completely optional content after the fact.



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[GoldenusG]

Locain wrote...

I agree with GoldenusG..

You agree with me?   Wow!  I mean...  That doesn't happen very often...  Wow!


Sorry.  Played through an origin for the... (Six origins, seven screw-ups)... Tenth or so time.  Al's intro is sinking into my subconscious.


As for the X3 hater.  Yes, the game is so dull and repetitive (It is repetitive in places, and dull early on.  Its also disgustingly addictive if you give it a chance), that I've sunk 800 hours into it.  Why, its almost like killing the same three models of darkspawn a thousand times over.

[ladydesire]

nothing3839 wrote...


 What makes you so sure that this content was not developed as content to be integrated within the original game but perhaps it was a business decision to cut it and make it available post release to justify additional cost?

Because Dragon Age for PC was completed long before it was actually released; it was originally scheduled for an early 2009 release, with the console versions coming out in October. 

For example, for WK, do you think they developed that content and did the voice acting after the fact? 

Yes.

[nothing3839]

xcorps wrote...

Throughout history, companies have thought to have found the ultimate idea to milk their customers, but often enough the customers have surprised them.

Or maybe Bioware just wants to continue to offer their services in fulfilling your entertainment needs.
Maybe they've determined that the microtransactions they offer need to be priced at X in order to be fiscally acceptable. Maybe they want to maintain their reputation as a high end content provider.

I seriously doubt they stand around in meetings asking each other how they can milk their customers.

On a shareholder meeting?  I beg to differ.  That is exactly what they are asking themselves.

[Melchiah109]

If they don't reply, the forums get flooded with the "Bioware doesn't acknowledge anything" threads.



It is a vicious cycle.

[Beertastic]

KalosCast wrote...

To Bioware: an official company response is like a troll's/doomsayer's wet dream. Consider not feeding them.

This guy isn't really a troll, he just seems to be extremely opionated and wants everything to himself, for free.

[nothing3839]

Red-Cell wrote...

It's ok, gaming has been taken over by number crunchers, marketing, and non gamers.

Bioware started the whole paid DLC trend years ago with NWN modules. It's pretty sad a lot of game developers don't have actual gamers in them making the decisions any longer.

There are those PC developers that are still ran by gamers that offer free quality DLC and don't simply charge and withhold because they can. Games created by gamers for gamers are a rarity now days unfortunately. I'm surprised the game tools weren't sold.

Well you and I both know this has been going on for a while.  What is more difficult to explain to me is why the gamers and the game developers allowed this to happen.  True, there has been a backlash against EA but that is pretty much isolated.

[Wickedjelly]

Rexxean wrote...

I think Return to Ostagar will settle this debate .. I'm sure bioware knows if they make this a ripoff DLC' there DLC model is gonna die. Keep in mind alot ppl playing DAO are new to DLC to not know of NWN model or Oblivion mini's add-ons.

So I really think Return to Ostagar is vital for them. If they want to keep alot of ppl buying DLC

Will for me.  If I get another damn story that ends up having no closure like happened to me with Warden's Keep I'm done with their dlc.

[nothing3839]

Beertastic wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

To Bioware: an official company response is like a troll's/doomsayer's wet dream. Consider not feeding them.

This guy isn't really a troll, he just seems to be extremely opionated and wants everything to himself, for free.

You are aware I actually payed for the game right...?

[xcorps]

On a shareholder meeting? I beg to differ. That is exactly what they are asking themselves.

Then you are being intentionally obtuse, or you attended too many classes offered by left wing professors.

Modifié par xcorps, 23 novembre 2009 - 12:09 .

[Wickedjelly]

Beertastic wrote...

 ...and wants everything to himself, for free.

Well, I don't completely fault him.  I do too.  It's just reality never seems to want to play along

[F-C]

i love the box game and am very happy with it, but so far i am not impressed with how DLC content is being handled.



i dislike buying points then using points to buy something. just sell it to me directly, dont make me jump through hoops.



i dislike getting freebie items that trivialize the main game when the DLC is just a side quest and you still have the rest of the game to do. just dropping items in your inventory is even worse.



if you wanted to make me happier about DLC, and yes i am just a single customer, then sell me the DLC for a cash value directly. make the content an addition past the end of the game to where i feel like its extending my play experience and put the better gear in there for me to earn by killing bosses and so on.



thats just my opinion, and it probably wont hold much weight considering the massive amount of sales DLC has yielded, but there it is.





for the most part i have just abstained from the DLC content because its not adding to the game in the way i want it to.

[Georg Zoeller]

And it's a fine opinion to voice. I'd rather have a civil discussion about it than shutting it down.

Beertastic wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

To Bioware: an official company response is like a troll's/doomsayer's wet dream. Consider not feeding them.

This guy isn't really a troll, he just seems to be extremely opionated and wants everything to himself, for free.

[KalosCast]

Beertastic wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

To Bioware: an official company response is like a troll's/doomsayer's wet dream. Consider not feeding them.

This guy isn't really a troll, he just seems to be extremely opionated and wants everything to himself, for free.

He's what I'd call a "doomsayer", the person who's convinced that EVERYTHING IS RUINED FOREVER merely because they didn't get free **** from an industry with larger development times/costs and significiantly lower profit margins than almost all comparable media.

[Rubarack]

Discussion doesn't really matter at this point, a significant enough minority of players have stood up and said they're willing to pay $3,500 for Dragon Age 2. The question RtO will be asking is "Are you willing to spend $5,000 on Dragon Age 2. Like it or not buying Bioware games just got a whole degree more expensive, and in all likelihood scarcer.