297 réponses à ce sujet

[xcorps]

nothing3839 wrote...

xcorps wrote...

... I think it is inconsiderate of Bioware to ask for more money for above the premium price. And this is why in fact...I have started this thread. Where were we again?

They are offering additions to the premium content. Why would they NOT ask for money?

Because it is unjustified for all of the reasons me and others have expressed.  The content itself does not justify the price and it is a ****ty attitude to have toward your fans--I am yet to encounter some one that thinks that the aggressive ingame marketing is a good idea.   When EA became the Microsoft of the gaming industry they learned this lesson the hard way.  

You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Everyone knows EA releases ****ty products just because they can.  Their market share is so huge at this point that they don't even have to worry about quality control or the attitudes of the gaming community.  

Here's a little situation for you:

You make an appointment with your doctor because you have a cold. You show up, the doctor examines you, gives you a course of treatment, and you get up to leave. On your way out the door, you stop and say "by the way, I have some pain in my ankle, could you take a look at it?"  The doctor then examines your ankle, determines the cause of your pain, and offers a course of treatment.

By your expression in the quote, it would be wrong of the doctor to charge you for examining your ankle, because you paid him for examining your cold.

That just doesn't make any sense though, does it.

You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Absolutely not. Any action is justified as long as it is legal and ethical in addition to being profitable.

I agree that the single case of the Warden DLC the price does not justify the content. Future content and pricing will have to be weighed on its individual merit.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

nothing3839 wrote...
Everyone knows EA releases ****ty products just because they can.  Their market share is so huge at this point that they don't even have to worry about quality control or the attitudes of the gaming community.  

Yeah, all those sh**ty games like Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Crysis, Orange Box, Left4dead1&2 et cetera.

EA used to be really bad, but they've made an effort to improve and they have in the last 2 years.  Activision has replaced them though.

Even still: your argument has devolved into childish arguments.  You really have no idea of what goes into game development and are just criticizing anyone you can no matter how baseless and inaccurate the claims because you're upset you didn't get some free content.

[nothing3839]

boba1974 wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...

Am I going to get a chart with statistical representations to demonstrate the general attitude of the community on DLC...or is this just another mishap on your part....?

If you want to be deliberatly dense, so be it, but I don't have to show general attitude of the community because it's been shown for years. If DLC didn't sell, it wouldn't be made, end of story.

As for DLC in Dragon Age, Bioware has already sent out press releases about how much money their DLC made in the first week, and even one developer in this very thread said sales were "stunning".

Facts are facts, DLC in Dragon Age is a hit and it's here to stay. Or are you one of those people who will argue 2+2=5?

Oh, and I'm still waiting for that huge list of games that you've purchased that offer more bang for your buck.

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Are you honestly trying to say that because something is selling it is a "success" in the most general sense of the word and that it is justified and a sound marketing idea?  How many DLC packs have been sold?  

This is my last response to you.  

[ITSSEXYTIME]

nothing3839 wrote...

boba1974 wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...

Am I going to get a chart with statistical representations to demonstrate the general attitude of the community on DLC...or is this just another mishap on your part....?

If you want to be deliberatly dense, so be it, but I don't have to show general attitude of the community because it's been shown for years. If DLC didn't sell, it wouldn't be made, end of story.

As for DLC in Dragon Age, Bioware has already sent out press releases about how much money their DLC made in the first week, and even one developer in this very thread said sales were "stunning".

Facts are facts, DLC in Dragon Age is a hit and it's here to stay. Or are you one of those people who will argue 2+2=5?

Oh, and I'm still waiting for that huge list of games that you've purchased that offer more bang for your buck.

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Are you honestly trying to say that because something is selling it is a "success" in the most general sense of the word and that it is justified and a sound marketing idea?  How many DLC packs have been sold?  

This is my last response to you.  

Sales = people want it = Bioware provides it.

Just because YOU don't ant it doesn't mean Bioware shouldn't provide it.

[Wickedjelly]

nothing3839 wrote...


You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Hell no, most aren't saying that.  Just look at the amount of threads complaining about the issues with Warden's Keep.  Some of the people that disagree with your sentiment even stated they won't purcahse the dlc themselves in its current state.  Not everyone that disagrees with you thinks these companies can do no wrong or there isn't a a measuring stick that should be used far as quality and quantity goes.

Most are actually irked that you simply feel that anyone differing from your opinion is a fanboy or the such.

[nothing3839]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...
Everyone knows EA releases ****ty products just because they can.  Their market share is so huge at this point that they don't even have to worry about quality control or the attitudes of the gaming community.  

Yeah, all those sh**ty games like Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Crysis, Orange Box, Left4dead1&2 et cetera.

EA used to be really bad, but they've made an effort to improve and they have in the last 2 years.  Activision has replaced them though.

Even still: your argument has devolved into childish arguments.  You really have no idea of what goes into game development and are just criticizing anyone you can no matter how baseless and inaccurate the claims because you're upset you didn't get some free content.

Don't assume that you know what I know...thats a bad argumentative strategy.  For all you know I can be a developer?  Try to focus on things that are actually said...not your assumptions about what I do or my personal character.  Think before you write.

On the subject of game development look at the list of games you put down.  Do you even know the difference between developer and publisher?  Judging for the names you placed in the same category you clearly don't.  

[Wickedjelly]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
Yeah, all those sh**ty games like Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Crysis, Orange Box, Left4dead1&2 et cetera.

EA used to be really bad, but they've made an effort to improve and they have in the last 2 years.  Activision has replaced them though.

Even still: your argument has devolved into childish arguments.  You really have no idea of what goes into game development and are just criticizing anyone you can no matter how baseless and inaccurate the claims because you're upset you didn't get some free content.

Yeah but they also made Warhammer Online.  By default, that erases all the good they've done and sets them back at 0.

Just kidding...sort of...

[nothing3839]

Wickedjelly wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...


You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Hell no, most aren't saying that.  Just look at the amount of threads complaining about the issues with Warden's Keep.  Some of the people that disagree with your sentiment even stated they won't purcahse the dlc themselves in its current state.  Not everyone that disagrees with you thinks these companies can do no wrong or there isn't a a measuring stick that should be used far as quality and quantity goes.

Most are actually irked that you simply feel that anyone differing from your opinion is a fanboy or the such.

How is any of this justified?  Have I accused some one of such a thing simply because they don't agree with me?  

[boba1974]

[quote]nothing3839 wrote...





[/quote]

Don't assume that you know what I know...thats a bad argumentative strategy.  For all you know I can be a developer?  Try to focus on things that are actually said...not your assumptions about what I do or my personal character.  Think before you write.

On the subject of game development look at the list of games you put down.  Do you even know the difference between developer and publisher?  Judging for the names you placed in the same category you clearly don't.  
[/quote]



Ok, let's focus on things you've said.

1) You said you're a gamer who expects more "bang for their buck"...so prove it. List the games you've bought in the past couple of years that offer more bang for your buck than Dragon Age.

2) You said DLC cost Bethesda in the long term...prove it. Since you're so big in proof and backing up your claims, lets see ANYTHING that shows Bethesda has lost fanbase loyalty from DLC.

Of course, you'll dodge these questions like you've dodged every other in this thread.

[Redunzgofasta]

nothing3839 wrote...

Beertastic wrote...

Yes, the game has bugs and flaws, yes the DLC is expensive for how much content you get. Yes, Bioware is a company.

Still, no one forced you to purchase the game or any of the additional DLC (don't forget most of it comes with the game for free).

Whether you want to think that is a generic "Love it or Hate it" response, you have to admit it is true. If you aren't a die-hard Bioware/RPG fan there is no reason to pre-order their games or buy them the second they come out. Wait for reviews, listen to their communities, read up on it. Then you can make an informed purchase.

Don't blame the community or Bioware (regardless of how many mistakes they could make, they are a company trying to make money so they can pay their salaries, you'll just have to accept it).

Sir, I am afraid you have to disagree on several points.  

Nothing that comes with the game is for free.  You are paying a whopping $50 for it.  
Charging additional costs on top of the original costs is not intended to pay anyones salary.  It is intended to increase of profits of shareholders as much as possible at the expense of people like you and me.  You should know this since you stressed how Bioware is a "company".  

I don't have to accept anything.  I can simply refuse to pay additional costs and demand that the content be released for free.  You can do this as well and it just might work.

Adittional cost for additional content seems just fine with me.
DLC's are like mini expanansions. Should expensions also be free?

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind.

[DJoker35]

nothing3839 wrote...

Are you honestly trying to say that because something is selling it is a "success" in the most general sense of the word and that it is justified and a sound marketing idea?  How many DLC packs have been sold?  

Umm, yes. Something selling is a success. A company making a profit off of a product is a succes. 1 Million dollars from DLC sales in one week is a success. Being able to pay employees for their work is a succes. Being able to continue making products because your company is profitable from the goods they sell is a success. People buying those products in numbers to maintain all those other things is a success.  And THAT'S  justified and sound marketing.

[Wickedjelly]

nothing3839 wrote...

How is any of this justified?  Have I accused some one of such a thing simply because they don't agree with me?  

O_o

You did this in your op.

[nothing3839]

xcorps wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...

xcorps wrote...

... I think it is inconsiderate of Bioware to ask for more money for above the premium price. And this is why in fact...I have started this thread. Where were we again?

They are offering additions to the premium content. Why would they NOT ask for money?

Because it is unjustified for all of the reasons me and others have expressed.  The content itself does not justify the price and it is a ****ty attitude to have toward your fans--I am yet to encounter some one that thinks that the aggressive ingame marketing is a good idea.   When EA became the Microsoft of the gaming industry they learned this lesson the hard way.  

You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Everyone knows EA releases ****ty products just because they can.  Their market share is so huge at this point that they don't even have to worry about quality control or the attitudes of the gaming community.  

Here's a little situation for you:

You make an appointment with your doctor because you have a cold. You show up, the doctor examines you, gives you a course of treatment, and you get up to leave. On your way out the door, you stop and say "by the way, I have some pain in my ankle, could you take a look at it?"  The doctor then examines your ankle, determines the cause of your pain, and offers a course of treatment.

By your expression in the quote, it would be wrong of the doctor to charge you for examining your ankle, because you paid him for examining your cold.

That just doesn't make any sense though, does it.

You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Absolutely not. Any action is justified as long as it is legal and ethical in addition to being profitable.

I agree that the single case of the Warden DLC the price does not justify the content. Future content and pricing will have to be weighed on its individual merit.

You doctor analogy is a flawed one and presents a circular argument.  According to you Dragonage and the DLC's should be considered separate products/services and you should be charged accordingly.  That is precisely the point of contention here.

As for you statements about ethics, legality and profit we agree.  But that that Bioware has satisfied all of those criteria is also questionable.

[Beertastic]

nothing3839 wrote...

Wickedjelly wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...


You seem to believe that any action is justified by a company so long as it generates additional profit.  Perhaps that is a sound business decision in the short term, but I'm not so sure about the long term effect on the fans as well as the product quality standards industry wide.  

Hell no, most aren't saying that.  Just look at the amount of threads complaining about the issues with Warden's Keep.  Some of the people that disagree with your sentiment even stated they won't purcahse the dlc themselves in its current state.  Not everyone that disagrees with you thinks these companies can do no wrong or there isn't a a measuring stick that should be used far as quality and quantity goes.

Most are actually irked that you simply feel that anyone differing from your opinion is a fanboy or the such.

How is any of this justified?  Have I accused some one of such a thing simply because they don't agree with me?  

"...additional content have usually been flamed by the vast hordes of
Bioware fanboys and the usual "no one is forcing you to buy the
game..." arguments.  You know, I really expected a more critical and
pro-consumer response from the gaming community..."

It seems you change your stance quite often. You insult the majority of the Bioware community as being fanboys when it suits your purpose and the next post you can be insulting Bioware for "using their faithful fans". Do you go between thinking we are moronic bipedal zombies and human beings with rights everey 2 minutes?

[darkblueglass]

nothing3839 wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

nothing3839 wrote...


Sir, I am afraid you have to disagree on several points.  

Nothing that comes with the game is for free.  You are paying a whopping $50 for it.

No kidding... Games cost money to produce, you know.
  

Charging additional costs on top of the original costs is not intended to pay anyones salary.

So the DLC team doesn't need to be paid for their work? I know this might be hard to believe, but Warden's Keep and the upcoming DLC were not ever part of the game, like some people seem to believe; Shale was intended to be in the game, but was cut for some reason, so that's how the Stone Prisoner DLC came about.

I don't have to accept anything.  I can simply refuse to pay additional costs and demand that the content be released for free.  You can do this as well and it just might work.

Since most of the content being released is not required to play the main campaign (you can play DA without having Shale in your party, the Armor you get from Warden's Keep isn't super powerful, stat-wise, etc), I don't see why there being optional content for those that want to get it is a problem for those that don't.

I think you missing the thrust of my argument.  I do agree that we should have access to the content, but not that there should be an additional cost.

Also, there seems to be a premise that everyone is this thread shares.  Namely, that the content was developed in additional to the game?  What makes you so sure that this content was not developed as content to be integrated within the original game but perhaps it was a business decision to cut it and make it available post release to justify additional cost?

For example, for WK, do you think they developed that content and did the voice acting after the fact? 

Why does it important that they made the DLC contents for the original game and took it out for the DLC or not?
All three Lord of the Rings movies are all made simultaneously then does it have to be all released at the same time? How about extended DVD movie editions? Are they all unethical? 
How about beetles? I know they wrote tons of songs in advance but they didn't release at the same time but many of their song are release later? New beetles songs are still being release.

[Zweijsters]

It's funny how this 'discussion' keeps being re-opened, when no one ever says anything new. All these arguments have been made already. Without any progress whatsoever, since its a forum discussion and no one will ever admit they are wrong, or that someone might make a valid statement.



Riddle me this, what do you want to achieve with these threads? Rallying the community to your cause and stick it to the man and get DLC for free? It won't happen. Look at what happened to the die hard 'boycot' of Left for Dead 2.



Why don't you let people decide for themselves if it's worth their money, and stop wasting everybodies time.



And to not go completely Al-qaida on this thread, consumers brought this upon themselves with illegal markets and piracy. Cause and effect.

[Wickedjelly]

darkblueglass wrote...

All three Lord of the Rings movies are all made simultaneously then does it have to be all released at the same time?

Thank god they weren't. I went to see The Two Towers in the theatre and almost blew out a kidney because I had to use the bathroom but I kept figuring the movie would end soon so I should be fine.

[Georg Zoeller]

So far, I see a long list of statements from you nothing and nothing to back them up.

[nothing3839]

[quote]boba1974 wrote...

[quote]nothing3839 wrote...


[/quote]

Don't assume that you know what I know...thats a bad argumentative strategy.  For all you know I can be a developer?  Try to focus on things that are actually said...not your assumptions about what I do or my personal character.  Think before you write.

On the subject of game development look at the list of games you put down.  Do you even know the difference between developer and publisher?  Judging for the names you placed in the same category you clearly don't.  
[/quote]



Ok, let's focus on things you've said.

1) You said you're a gamer who expects more "bang for their buck"...so prove it. List the games you've bought in the past couple of years that offer more bang for your buck than Dragon Age.

2) You said DLC cost Bethesda in the long term...prove it. Since you're so big in proof and backing up your claims, lets see ANYTHING that shows Bethesda has lost fanbase loyalty from DLC.

Of course, you'll dodge these questions like you've dodged every other in this thread.

[/quote]

To your first point, there really is no reason for me to list games in my library that have more or just as much content as Dragonage, at least as it stands at this point.  In fact, the exact amount of "content", if that can ever be determined, is not at issue here.  What is at issue is Bioware's relationship to its fanbase and its marketing strategy with the DLC's.

To your second point, do you honestly want url's to community sites ****ing about Beth's Oblivion and Fallout 3 DLC content?  I never made a numerical or statistical argument like you, because I know I do not have the data to support such an argument.  What I am saying is that there was much discontent as one other person on the forum mentioned.  

Simply put DLC's are always points of debate because most people believe that games these days are not cheep and asking additional money for models that are very easy to tack on to the game engine (I know enough about programing and third party mods to know this) is not exactly popular and always justified.  I think WK is a prefect example of this.  

[ITSSEXYTIME]

nothing3839 wr
ote...
Don't assume that you know what I know...thats a bad argumentative strategy.  For all you know I can be a developer?  Try to focus on things that are actually said...not your assumptions about what I do or my personal character.  Think before you write.

I'm basing it off your comments in this thread, claiming "what gamers want" and claiming that the "good will" that comes with free DLC is somehow more valuable than being able to justify spending money on a sequel.  It's very much an issue of a vocal minority acting like they're more significant than they truly are.

nothing3839 wrote...
On the subject of game development look at the list of games you put down.  Do you even know the difference between developer and publisher?  Judging for the names you placed in the same category you clearly don't.  

I do indeed know the difference, but when you criticize EA game quality on a Dragon Age thread (developed by Bioware) I begin to doubt you have any idea on what you're talking about.  Even if you want to try to make that argument that EA internal games are somehow bad, the latest Madden game was apparently really good and fight night round 4 that came out a few months back wasn't too shabby.  I will admit I'm not well rehearsed on EA internally developed games beyond their sports franchises but within the context of this thread, you were clearly not limiting the discussion to them anyway.

[xcorps]

You doctor analogy is a flawed one and presents a circular argument.  According to you Dragonage and the DLC's should be considered separate products/services and you should be charged accordingly.  That is precisely the point of contention here.

As for you statements about ethics, legality and profit we agree.  But that that Bioware has satisfied all of those criteria is also questionable.

They are in fact seperate products. The DLC is additional content, developed after the release of the game.


Are you accusing Bioware of doing something illegal or unethical? You'll have to present quite a bit of evidence to support that.

[GoldenusG]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

Well, the real answer is probably 'do both'.

But how am I to know the good side of the force from the b...  Errr...  How are we supposed to tell the filler, from the true grit?  I only hope the third DLC will be of decent scope, else I'll likely lose interest before a forth materialises.

Bang for you buck? Are you for real? What was the last game you bought that offered more content than Dragon Age at release?

Y'know, thats is actually a fair question.  I've played a fair few that have lasted longer, and been 'better', but as for terms of content?  Thats tricky.  Just the one game?  (Since I've mentioned X3:TC, I'll leave that out...  same goes for its predecessors)...  Most bang, would be...  Not Fallout 3, for whilst in my two playthroughs of that, I clocked 180-odd hours, I was left unfulfilled, with no urge to return.  GTA4 I picked up a few times, but have never felt any connection, nor urge to complete...  The new Command & Conquer games lack the charm of the old ones, so not those...  Same with Civilization IV.  Looking at me shelves we might have to go all the way back to Vampire the Masquerade:  Bloodlines.  Anyways, personally, I've no real problem with the length of the game, just the DLC thus far.

 And sure, toss me your massive list of developers who give away free content all the time.

Oooh!  Free content from Bioware?  Where?  Oh...  Wait.  There isn't any.

Free content from other companies?

A giant chunk  of land with multiple quests in Sacred 2 by Ascaron.  Two long multistage missions in X3:Terran Conflict (Well, one, plus one upcoming) along with another one in X3:Reunion, by Egosoft (Whose forums are the most well-mannered I've seen).  Bethesda released a DLC for Oblivion for free, though only for the first week.  Going back, Origin, under EA managment, same as Bioware released a whole Wing Commander game for free.(Which was a bit crazy, I'd have payed good money for it).  Going with EA, they released a revamped graphics package for Ultima:  Online for free as well.  Whoever has the rights to Dungeons & Dragons Online, thats now free, though with micro-transactions.

I could go on, but as contrary as it seems, it IS good business to give stuff away free sometimes to gain loyalty.

Ultimately, I just want something to chew on, rather than swallow whole...

[Georg Zoeller]

I could link you to various MW2 boycotts, L4D2 petitions and even RPG codex to prove that really, by abandoning turnbased gameplay, developers have totally dropped the ball and lost a lot of money.

That'd make for an amusing argument, for sure.

nothing3839 wrote...

To your second point, do you honestly want url's to community sites ****ing about Beth's Oblivion and Fallout 3 DLC content?  I never made a numerical or statistical argument like you, because I know I do not have the data to support such an argument.  What I am saying is that there was much discontent as one other person on the forum mentioned.  

[Wickedjelly]

nothing3839 wrote...

To your second point, do you honestly want url's to community sites ****ing about Beth's Oblivion and Fallout 3 DLC content?  I never made a numerical or statistical argument like you, because I know I do not have the data to support such an argument.  What I am saying is that there was much discontent as one other person on the forum mentioned.  

Simply put DLC's are always points of debate because most people believe that games these days are not cheep and asking additional money for models that are very easy to tack on to the game engine (I know enough about programing and third party mods to know this) is not exactly popular and always justified.  I think WK is a prefect example of this.  

That proves nothing.  It's the internet...people love to ****.  No matter what you do, no matter how much you put into something,etc. someone will always be displeased or want more.

...and to be fair, while it certainly wouldn't quell all complaints about Wardens' Keep if it would have been $5, the keep reusable after entering plus treated like an actual camp locale, and there wasn't a story with no ending a lot of the complaints that exist wouldn't be around.

Of course there would still be some but in my opinion there would be a hell of a lot less of them.

[Sloth Of Doom]

Georg Zoeller wrote...

I could link you to various MW2 boycotts, L4D2 petitions and even RPG codex to prove that really, by abandoning turnbased gameplay, developers have totally dropped the ball and lost a lot of money.

That'd make for an amusing argument, for sure.

nothing3839 wrote...

To your second point, do you honestly want url's to community sites ****ing about Beth's Oblivion and Fallout 3 DLC content?  I never made a numerical or statistical argument like you, because I know I do not have the data to support such an argument.  What I am saying is that there was much discontent as one other person on the forum mentioned.  

pfft.  fanboi.