39 réponses à ce sujet

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Ok so if you don't know Sister Nightingale's real name, stop reading now....

Ok, now that you are still reading... How did a lay sister from backwoods Lothering get to be the Right Hand of the Divine Herself? I mean really... Yeah she helped the Warden... but... to go from simple life of quiet contemplation to the most powerful woman in the church?  Howzat happen, especially in only 2-6 years?

[esper]

Doroethea from Leliana's song is the Divine. Thus the Divine knows Leliana on a personal level.

[RobRam10]

Well if you play the Leliana DLC the revered mother that ask Leliana to return the papers to her becomes the Divine, so I assume that the Divine had more use for Leliana.

[dragonflight288]

Leliana and the Divine know each other on a personal level. And anyone in high places of power like the Divine could use someone with Leliana's bardic skills.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

OOOH I didn't realize that... Ok, makes more sense now... Heh. Been a a long time since I played Leliana's Song.

[caradoc2000]

http://dragonage.wik...vine_Justinia_V

[General User]

Leliana is one of the most talented covert operatives in Thedas and a devout Andrastian. Where else would she end up?

[WhiteKnyght]

Leliana was likely working undercover during Origins. Considering her exclusive restricted starter necklace was called "Seeker's Circle" that's a pretty good implication.

It's simple. Blight breaks out in Ferelden. And she's sent back to the Chantry in Lothering to pose as a lay sister and keep the Seekers(and Dorothea) updated on what happens.

And after the massacre happens she prepares to flee Lothering and make a final report. But as luck have it, she runs into the Grey Wardens at the tavern and sees an opportunity to continue her mission. So she latches herself on and claims a false vision to protect her cover.

As for the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes' claims. It's entirely possible that Leliana was trained by the Seekers to guard her mind against magic and he couldn't properly read her memories.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:17 .

[Myusha]

Morrigan's memories are read, and she's a Witch of the Wilds.
Leliana being a secret agent is an idiotic notion. At least in Origins. Awakening and Beyond? The possibility proves itself.

[whykikyouwhy]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Leliana was likely working undercover during Origins. Considering her exclusive restricted starter necklace was called "Seeker's Circle" that's a pretty good implication.

It's simple. Blight breaks out in Ferelden. And she's sent back to the Chantry in Lothering to pose as a lay sister and keep the Seekers(and Dorothea) updated on what happens.

And after the massacre happens she prepares to flee Lothering and make a final report. But as luck have it, she runs into the Grey Wardens at the tavern and sees an opportunity to continue her mission. So she latches herself on and claims a false vision to protect her cover.

As for the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes' claims. It's entirely possible that Leliana was trained by the Seekers to guard her mind against magic and he couldn't properly read her memories.

The Seeker's Circle necklace/amulet isn't meant to be indicative of the order. The item description is as follows:

"A wheel representing the Maker's unending patience and Andraste's unquenchable passion. Simple and inspirational, though uncommon outside the Chantry. A gift meant to be given without conditions."

The symbol is common, the intent is common as well - "seeker," lower-case, to denote someone following the Maker and seeking wisdom. The Seeker Order, capitalized, is different. And I seriously doubt that they would give out trinkets to clearly identify their members, especially if they are trying to remain incognito.

But then, folks have already weighed in on that in one of your older threads.

[WhiteKnyght]

Myusha wrote...

Morrigan's memories are read, and she's a Witch of the Wilds.
Leliana being a secret agent is an idiotic notion. At least in Origins. Awakening and Beyond? The possibility proves itself.

The Guardian got as far as "daughter of Flemeth", which was already known, before she cut him off. Meaning she probably figured out what he was doing and didn't want him revealing anything.

Also, it's not idiotic. Leliana lies to the Warden about her past, and when she tells the 'truth' and promises no more lies, she's still lying. In her real past she ended up helping a woman who conveniently ascends as the next Divine despite having a less than clean past. And she picks Leliana to be her #1 agent/spy/assassin.

It wouldn't be the first time the writers have made the obvious notions untrue. Look at Anora. It looked like Howe had her prisoner for Loghain and was planning to kill her to frame Eamon. But Loghain himself reveals it was a ploy by her to gain the Warden's trust and support.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
The Seeker's Circle necklace/amulet isn't meant to be indicative of the order. The item description is as follows:

"A
wheel representing the Maker's unending patience and Andraste's
unquenchable passion. Simple and inspirational, though uncommon outside
the Chantry. A gift meant to be given without conditions."

The
symbol is common, the intent is common as well - "seeker," lower-case,
to denote someone following the Maker and seeking wisdom. The Seeker
Order, capitalized, is different. And I seriously doubt that they would
give out trinkets to clearly identify their members, especially if they
are trying to remain incognito.

But then, folks have already weighed in on that in one of your older threads.

I
see item descriptions the same way as the devs explain codex entries.
Recordings of knowledge by people in the game as they believe it to be. Not always true facts.

Leliana becomes Sister Nightengale under any and all circumstances. Most would assume she got recognition for helping with the Blight. But Leliana's Song revealed that she already had the connections years before she even met the Warden.

Also why is it so hard for you guys to believe? She's a bard. It's her job description.

Or is it that you simply don't want your fantasy view of her in Origins to be tarnished?

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:49 .

[Heimdall]

It's very unlikely that Leliana was working undercover during Origins. I think Dorothea was vetting her for the seekers by having her become a sister and maybe having her watched. I doubt Leliana herself even knew of the Seekers existence at the time.

[whykikyouwhy]

"Connections" do not necessarily equate to "being part of an Order," not in Origins at least. "Connections" mean that she could be under the watchful gaze of the Order, and that her name is on a list for eventual recruitment - she'll be mentored and guided until such time as she's ready to don the mantle, so to speak.
Since no one here has a definitive answer as to whether or not she was part of the Seekers in Origins, we're all speculating based on what we do know, and what we have seen in the various games. And that speculation is not based on some desire to preserve a "fantasy view" of the character.  

[WhiteKnyght]

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's very unlikely that Leliana was working undercover during Origins. I think Dorothea was vetting her for the seekers by having her become a sister and maybe having her watched. I doubt Leliana herself even knew of the Seekers existence at the time.

A lot of unlikely things turn out to be true. And there's always more to these stories than what they tell us.

Look at Alistair. He started out as an illigitimate prince via a maid who was hidden for politics and by chance was recruited into the Grey Wardens. And before The Calling came out -- if someone had told you that Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden and the whole scullery maid from Redcliffe was a lie, would you have believed it?

[Realmzmaster]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's very unlikely that Leliana was working undercover during Origins. I think Dorothea was vetting her for the seekers by having her become a sister and maybe having her watched. I doubt Leliana herself even knew of the Seekers existence at the time.

A lot of unlikely things turn out to be true. And there's always more to these stories than what they tell us.

Look at Alistair. He started out as an illigitimate prince via a maid who was hidden for politics and by chance was recruited into the Grey Wardens. And before The Calling came out -- if someone had told you that Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden and the whole scullery maid from Redcliffe was a lie, would you have believed it?

The Calling is outside the context of the game. If you have not read the Calling it does not matter.  Do not mixed the medias. What happens in the book does not necessarily have any bearing on the game and vice versa.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's very unlikely that Leliana was working undercover during Origins. I think Dorothea was vetting her for the seekers by having her become a sister and maybe having her watched. I doubt Leliana herself even knew of the Seekers existence at the time.

A lot of unlikely things turn out to be true. And there's always more to these stories than what they tell us.

Look at Alistair. He started out as an illigitimate prince via a maid who was hidden for politics and by chance was recruited into the Grey Wardens. And before The Calling came out -- if someone had told you that Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden and the whole scullery maid from Redcliffe was a lie, would you have believed it?

The Calling is outside the context of the game. If you have not read the Calling it does not matter.  Do not mixed the medias. What happens in the book does not necessarily have any bearing on the game and vice versa.

Well, the books are considered canon to the storyline, last I heard.  So, how can you not mix the medias when the developers/writers have already done so?

[frostajulie]

I had hoped a murdered Leiliana would act differently than a romanced or friend shipped leiliana but I didn't notice any differences. Is this a problem with the coding or just the way it was supposed to be?

[HiroVoid]

They chose to bring Leliana because they wanted her in the story.  Just accept that, and it's easier.  As long as it makes the story more interesting, I'd personally they rather do that otherwise those characters'll never get important roles through imports.

'Rise to power'?  Maybe we should get a dlc or expansion with Leliana on her role into becoming a seeker.

[Wulfram]

frostajulie wrote...

I had hoped a murdered Leiliana would act differently than a romanced or friend shipped leiliana but I didn't notice any differences. Is this a problem with the coding or just the way it was supposed to be?

I'm under the impression this is supposed to happen

[Quething]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's very unlikely that Leliana was working undercover during Origins. I think Dorothea was vetting her for the seekers by having her become a sister and maybe having her watched. I doubt Leliana herself even knew of the Seekers existence at the time.

A lot of unlikely things turn out to be true. And there's always more to these stories than what they tell us.

Look at Alistair. He started out as an illigitimate prince via a maid who was hidden for politics and by chance was recruited into the Grey Wardens. And before The Calling came out -- if someone had told you that Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden and the whole scullery maid from Redcliffe was a lie, would you have believed it?

Considering I still don't believe it, as there's nothing remotely resembling an actual fact to point to that baby being Alistair, and any number of timeline and story discrepancies that argue against it? No. I wouldn't have.

As for Leliana's Song not meshing with her story in Origins, she herself says in her opening voiceover for the DLC that she's making said DLC up as she goes along, and hasn't decided on an ending yet. It's Varric Syndrome. You're playing the tale, not the truth. (You can tell, because the truth is actually coherent and logical and the tale is nonsensical both plot-wise and emotionally).

[HiroVoid]

I'm under the impression this is supposed to happen

There you go. Maker did it. Problem solved.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Quething wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

It's very unlikely that Leliana was working undercover during Origins. I think Dorothea was vetting her for the seekers by having her become a sister and maybe having her watched. I doubt Leliana herself even knew of the Seekers existence at the time.

A lot of unlikely things turn out to be true. And there's always more to these stories than what they tell us.

Look at Alistair. He started out as an illigitimate prince via a maid who was hidden for politics and by chance was recruited into the Grey Wardens. And before The Calling came out -- if someone had told you that Alistair's mother was a Grey Warden and the whole scullery maid from Redcliffe was a lie, would you have believed it?

Considering I still don't believe it, as there's nothing remotely resembling an actual fact to point to that baby being Alistair, and any number of timeline and story discrepancies that argue against it? No. I wouldn't have.

As for Leliana's Song not meshing with her story in Origins, she herself says in her opening voiceover for the DLC that she's making said DLC up as she goes along, and hasn't decided on an ending yet. It's Varric Syndrome. You're playing the tale, not the truth. (You can tell, because the truth is actually coherent and logical and the tale is nonsensical both plot-wise and emotionally).

I remember seeing David Gaider denying that he said the baby wasn't Alistair.(Which means it very well could be.) I also remember seeing something where it said that Leliana's stuff really did happen in Ferelden. Also future events, such as Bonny Lem and Sketch's mutual appearances in Kirkwall are evidence that Leliana's song was true.

None of the novels are exact with the game's timeline anyway. According to the Stolen Throne, Arl Eamon would be 45 by the time Origins happened, and Teagan 38. And The Calling takes place 15 years after The Stolen Throne ends, which would be 9:15 Dragon. 15 years before the Blight. Yet Origins says it was 20 years.

The parallels between Alistair and Fiona's child are too similar.

He was to be hidden outside the court. (Alistair was taken in by Arl Eamon and raised in Redcliffe, away from the court.)

He was to be told his mother was human and dead. (Just like Alistair's mother)

He was to be watched over by Duncan. (And Duncan brought Alistair into the Wardens, treated him like a son, and according to David Gaider, Duncan knew that Alistair was Maric's son when he recruited him.)

He was also mentioned to look like Cailan and have blonde hair. (Alistair has a strong resemblence to his brother and is a blonde. Just a darker shade.)

Also Fiona, like Alistair, had a strong desire for him NOT to become King.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 19 novembre 2011 - 02:38 .

[frostajulie]

I took that to refer to Hawke thinking Leiliana was killed in Lotherring not being murdered at Andraste's ashes but I guess that works

[whykikyouwhy]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Also future events, such as Bonny Lem and Sketch's mutual appearances in Kirkwall are evidence that Leliana's song was true.

The appearance of Sketch and Bonny Lem in DA2 does not definitively makes for the entirety of the story in Leliana's Song to be true. It just means that some elements overlap.

Sketch even tells Hawke - "Take my advice friend: stay away from Storytellers, never know what they'll say..." You could take that to mean that storytellers and bards indulge in hyperbole, or they flat-out lie. For all we know, Leliana greatly exagerrated the role of Bonny Lem and Sketch, as did Varric in his retelling of Hawke's story to Cassandra.

Nothing is certain or firm, solid fact.

[WhiteKnyght]

frostajulie wrote...

I took that to refer to Hawke thinking Leiliana was killed in Lotherring not being murdered at Andraste's ashes but I guess that works

Well arguably if Leliana was left in Lothering she wouldn't be widely known. She would have just been another cloistered sister to the public.

I don't think it was the Maker who resurrected her. If the guy wouldn't do it for his own 'bride', why do it for a glorified assassin? It was probably a side effect of all the Lyrium in Mount Daverus(Oghren and Wynne will sense it and mention it. Oghren even suggests it for how the ashes got their powers.) Also seeing as the decapitation is a game mechanic, not a story action. Her wounds might not have been that bad and she could have just been unconsious and presumed dead.

If it wasn't for Eleni Zinovia's propecy. I wouldn't even believe that the Maker existed in the DA universe.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Also future events, such as Bonny Lem and Sketch's mutual appearances in Kirkwall are evidence that Leliana's song was true.

The appearance of Sketch and Bonny Lem in DA2 does not definitively makes for the entirety of the story in Leliana's Song to be true. It just means that some elements overlap.

Sketch
even tells Hawke - "Take my advice friend: stay away from Storytellers,
never know what they'll say..." You could take that to mean that
storytellers and bards indulge in hyperbole, or they flat-out lie. For
all we know, Leliana greatly exagerrated the role of Bonny Lem and
Sketch, as did Varric in his retelling of Hawke's story to Cassandra.

Nothing is certain or firm, solid fact.

I
didn't say the entirety was. But by your own logic the story could be
mostly true but just dramatized to be entertaining to the player.

Like how Leliana can go overboard framing that city guard. (Didn't she do enough to the poor man?)

Or how she was implied to have been repeatedly raped by the guards. (Probably just that one douche)

Or how she or that other dude pushed that jerk that I can never remember the name of off of the cliff. (He was probably just killed in the battle)

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 19 novembre 2011 - 03:30 .