49 réponses à ce sujet

[lastpatriot]

I restarted my run again last night based upon the information you all have provided and it's amazing to me how just a few changes in my play-style really make a world of difference. Though I'm still making stupid mistakes and getting myself killed, at least I can understand now where the mistake was made.

So far, I went with inferno ammo, squad cry ammo (fun!) and reave (for now) as my special ability. Using that area pull from Jacob and the warp bomb, it really makes taking out groups of 2+ so much easier. This should be much better though once I get a few weapon upgrades.

As for the SG, I started out with the Eviscerator but found that my aim sucks enough that the Scim seams to feel better. I also continued with sniper training instead of the AR. I can't really see myself using an AR when I have other weapons to do fit that role.

[Yezdigerd]

The thing I dislike about the sniper rifle is that scope when you use powers,also it really just felt like a bother. If you get shot up with the assualt rifle sniping at range you can just charge and continue shooting, the sniper rifle forces you to switch or cover recover. To me, that is taking away the greatest strength the ability to charge reactively.
Or maybe I don't understand how to use it.

[xassantex]

i know top players like sabresandiego used the snipers but i never felt the need for one except maybe in Grunt's recruit and it wouldn't be accessible then anyway.
the Locust and squad powers do a fine job . But i'd play an AR vanguard for the fun of using the mattock and make life simpler in some occasions = )
but isn't it generally agreed the class is about point blank shooting ? which feels antithesis to sniping targets.

[CoffeeHolic93]

xassantex wrote...

i know top players like sabresandiego used the snipers but i never felt the need for one except maybe in Grunt's recruit and it wouldn't be accessible then anyway.
the Locust and squad powers do a fine job . But i'd play an AR vanguard for the fun of using the mattock and make life simpler in some occasions = )
but isn't it generally agreed the class is about point blank shooting ? which feels antithesis to sniping targets.

The Viper is a beast up close. Viper-Charging is quite viable if your main weapon is the Scimmy. A gun for barriers and a gun for armor. 

Assault Rifles (not including the Mattock as it's basically the viper without a scope or fire rate limit) are all-around weapons but they don't excel at anything in particular. The Viper is an anti-armor beast and it can strip elites or boss-mooks easily.

I usually roll Assault Rifles or The Claymore though - The viper is my Infiltrators one true love.

[RedCaesar97]

xassantex wrote...
i know top players like sabresandiego used the snipers but i never felt the need for one except maybe in Grunt's recruit and it wouldn't be accessible then anyway.
the Locust and squad powers do a fine job . But i'd play an AR vanguard for the fun of using the mattock and make life simpler in some occasions = )
but isn't it generally agreed the class is about point blank shooting ? which feels antithesis to sniping targets.

I use the Viper on my main Vanguard. I like to use it to thin the enemy ranks before charging, or to snipe the occassional enemy that you cannot charge.

[capn233]

Mi-Chan wrote...

The Viper is a beast up close. Viper-Charging is quite viable if your main weapon is the Scimmy. A gun for barriers and a gun for armor.

Yeah my thoughts exactly.  Although the SR's don't get the close range bonus it still works well.  That and at some point you can charge and just smack them in the face with it until they die if you don't want to try and shoot them.

By late game I was chargine almost as much with Viper or even Tempest as much as my Eviscerator.

[CBGB]

I loved my vanguard, even though I usually shy away from close-combat classes. You might, too.

About the sniper rifle debate in the posts above: I rarely used mine. I experimented to find that yes, you can indeed use the Viper even up close, but I always preferred my shotgun (and the Phalanx pistol, with its laser-sight to help the aim-impaired like me). If you like sniping, great, but if not, you don't need it.

The one thing you do need as a vanguard is a sense of charging as life-saver, as well as a life-taker. When your shields are low, often it's best to charge again.

You can learn tons from Gatsby's videos, based on Sinosleep's introduction, linked earlier.They're so good that just watching this first vanguard video from the 2 minute to the 3 minute mark changed my whole approach, on any difficulty. You aren't rushing mobs, but rather picking off targets - often at the back - in places where you can get a few seconds of cover before charging again. Excellent fun.

I also learned tons from Sabresandiego's guide, and there are more links in my Forum compilation of ME2 info.

Good luck, and good charging to you!

Modifié par CBGB, 17 novembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[xassantex]

@CBGB
that's a very thread you made there.. had never seen it till now. thanks .

[lastpatriot]

Ugh... watching some of these videos makes me see just how much I have to learn. Sadly, I can run through insanity on my Sentinel or my Adept w/o really having to think but neither of them can clear an area as fast as Sinosleep does on his Vanguard. Though the SG Sentinel is rather impressive, he's not nearly as fun.

[jahaa]

lastpatriot wrote...

Ugh... watching some of these videos makes me see just how much I have to learn. Sadly, I can run through insanity on my Sentinel or my Adept w/o really having to think but neither of them can clear an area as fast as Sinosleep does on his Vanguard. Though the SG Sentinel is rather impressive, he's not nearly as fun.

Dont worry, just put more time on it and try to learn from your mistakes, read the awesome guides here and watch some videos to get some ideas and the sooner or later you will find yourself trying to be creative with your Vanguard because you already feel really comfortable playing with it.

About the sniper rifles for a Vanguard, i know husks arent the best example because they dont shoot but you might like to watch this video because you can see the damage and the spread of the Viper unscoped and scoped (upgraded 5/5)

Abandoned mine

Modifié par jahaa, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:48 .

[FJVP]

Part of perfecting the art of charging without dying also consists on learning the exact details of the terrain and what kind/how many enemies will spawn.So don't be discouraged if you keep dying, just keep trying and you'll eventually learn to use the terrain to your advantage.

[lastpatriot]

jahaa wrote...


About the sniper rifles for a Vanguard, i know husks arent the best example because they dont shoot but you might like to watch this video because you can see the damage and the spread of the Viper unscoped and scoped (upgraded 5/5)

Abandoned mine

lol, nice editing on that video - especially the end.  I just started using the Viper myself and it's amazing how quickly it will tear away armor.  I was one of those folks that always kep the Widow around but now I see how much of a mistake that was.  Going through Mordin's recruitment mission with the Viper has made life so much easier.  It's strange though - I've upgraded from getting killed every few seconds to just running around being almost dead.

[capn233]

The Viper is great. I was not really impressed with the Widow, which is why I ended up playing Infiltrator with AR training and Vindicator + Viper.

As for the Evi, to each their own. The Claymore is more powerful per shot, but holds two less shells per thermal clip. If you want to exploit the melee reload thing over and over it is ok, but the main issue I had was that there is no way the Claymore + no bonus gun is better than Evi + SR or AR. As for the GPS, I don't have the OP Weapons Pack.

[xassantex]

well since so many have proved me wrong, i'll just have to use the viper on my next vanguard.. lol .

[goofyomnivore]

the main issue I had was that there is no way the Claymore + no bonus gun is better than Evi + SR or AR. As for the GPS, I don't have the OP Weapons Pack.

I have to disagree with that. The Claymore's killing efficiency is unmatched whenever/wherever you can charge, and the times you can't charge are very few.

[lastpatriot]

xassantex wrote...

well since so many have proved me wrong, i'll just have to use the viper on my next vanguard.. lol .

After taking the advice of many here, I actually used the Viper for taking out some of the random mobs with high armor and was amazed at how quickly it took them out.  It's far better than even the DLC pistol.  I'll have to admit though, it did feel strange charging with a sniper out but it's hard to argue the destruction.

[CoffeeHolic93]

lastpatriot wrote...


After taking the advice of many here, I actually used the Viper for taking out some of the random mobs with high armor and was amazed at how quickly it took them out.  It's far better than even the DLC pistol.  I'll have to admit though, it did feel strange charging with a sniper out but it's hard to argue the destruction.

The Viper is comparable to the Widow when it comes to defense stripping.  It's amazing. 

Modifié par Mi-Chan, 18 novembre 2011 - 09:15 .

[CBGB]

xassantex wrote...
@CBGB
that's a very thread you made there.. had never seen it till now. thanks .

Glad to gather the good info from here! Your helpful thread, Building a Vanguard is a great addition.

lastpatriot wrote...
After taking the advice of many here, I actually used the Viper for taking out some of the random mobs with high armor and was amazed at how quickly it took them out. It's far better than even the DLC pistol. I'll have to admit though, it did feel strange charging with a sniper out but it's hard to argue the destruction.

Well done! Now you've got the vanguard bug.

[capn233]

strive wrote...

I have to disagree with that. The Claymore's killing efficiency is unmatched whenever/wherever you can charge, and the times you can't charge are very few.

To each their own.  I didn't find it much better after charges than the Evi.  Scimitar wins if you want to get CC ammo effects though.

Here is something from a different thread on the matter:

Now let's take a typical group of 3 normal enemies on insanity, something which I charge into regularly and see how the different shotguns perform shall we. (This is based on normal insanity playthrough not ng+) Claymore will fire 3 shots to kill 3 enemies in 4,88 seconds assuming no delays for aiming. Scimitar will use 3 seconds to fire 6 shots and do 3 melee's (one melee in between first and second shot on each enemy). The Eviscerator will use 2.5 seconds if you are doing headshots, if you are doing body shots it will be 2.5 seconds + the time of one melee attack.

Both of which are clearly faster then the Claymore by a wide margin.

(Now this is an assumption on my part, and I'm hoping Athenau can give me the correct numbers here.) Now with the reload trick assuming that 60% of the reload animation takes 0.9 seconds (1.5*0.6) it would be 0,94+9=1,84 seconds to fire 2 shots. This would make the claymore shoot 3 enemies in 3.68 seconds, which is still slower then both of the other shotguns by a fair margin.

It's only against elite enemies that the Claymore while using the reload trick is faster then the Eviscerator, which will generally need 2 shots and 4 melee's (using no ammo power, using AP ammo it's 2 shots and 3 melee's. 70% extra damage to health is basically nothing), which takes a bit less then 2.5 seconds, the Scimitar kills an elite using 4 shots and 3 melee hits in 1.8 seconds, the Claymore having to fire twice is 1.84 seconds. (I don't know if you can one shot elites with a headshot or not I haven't seen it so far, if you can it's obviously faster.)

This goes a long way towards explaining how people are doing the exact same things with all three of the  shotguns and despite the big difference in base damage between each weapon, the fire rate makes it so that they are astonishingly equal in terms of time taken to kill x amount of enemies.

Modifié par capn233, 19 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[goofyomnivore]

I usually play NG+ on my Vanguard so our experiences may differ.

The only video I have seen describing what you quoted is this;

All the shotguns finished probably within 1 - .5 seconds of one another. However versus anything that isn't a normal mob the Claymore's dps begins to pull ahead. The Claymore also doesn't suffer from being specialized into shields(scimitar) or armor(eviscerator), and because of its high base damage basically covers ground in the .25 modifier disadvantage it has on the specialized shotguns.

The only time I think I'd want a Viper or Mattock would be like the Scions on the platforms and Praetorians. Or if I was playing a Cryoguard where the Scimitar/Viper is by far the best setup. I personally find the Eviscerator to be the worst shotgun(less pellets=less ammo procs).

However different strokes for different folks. I haven't seen anything match the killing power of the Claymore on Object Rho -- it allows people to do the fight without cover!

Modifié par strive, 19 novembre 2011 - 09:42 .

[Kronner]

capn233 wrote...

Here is something from a different thread on the matter:

Now let's take a typical group of 3 normal enemies on insanity, something which I charge into regularly and see how the different shotguns perform shall we. (This is based on normal insanity playthrough not ng+) Claymore will fire 3 shots to kill 3 enemies in 4,88 seconds assuming no delays for aiming. Scimitar will use 3 seconds to fire 6 shots and do 3 melee's (one melee in between first and second shot on each enemy). The Eviscerator will use 2.5 seconds if you are doing headshots, if you are doing body shots it will be 2.5 seconds + the time of one melee attack.

Both of which are clearly faster then the Claymore by a wide margin.

(Now this is an assumption on my part, and I'm hoping Athenau can give me the correct numbers here.) Now with the reload trick assuming that 60% of the reload animation takes 0.9 seconds (1.5*0.6) it would be 0,94+9=1,84 seconds to fire 2 shots. This would make the claymore shoot 3 enemies in 3.68 seconds, which is still slower then both of the other shotguns by a fair margin.

It's only against elite enemies that the Claymore while using the reload trick is faster then the Eviscerator, which will generally need 2 shots and 4 melee's (using no ammo power, using AP ammo it's 2 shots and 3 melee's. 70% extra damage to health is basically nothing), which takes a bit less then 2.5 seconds, the Scimitar kills an elite using 4 shots and 3 melee hits in 1.8 seconds, the Claymore having to fire twice is 1.84 seconds. (I don't know if you can one shot elites with a headshot or not I haven't seen it so far, if you can it's obviously faster.)

This goes a long way towards explaining how people are doing the exact same things with all three of the  shotguns and despite the big difference in base damage between each weapon, the fire rate makes it so that they are astonishingly equal in terms of time taken to kill x amount of enemies.

The problem with this is, that whoever wrote it originally did not bother to test the weapons in the game.
Because the first shot happens at time t = 0s. All shotguns but Claymore do not kill the enemy at this time.
For the next two kills, you need two more shots with the Claymore, which means extra 3 seconds (RoF using the reload cancel is 1.5s).
The other shotguns start catching up here, but the advantage the Claymore has is that you have the most time to move to whatever position you want, aim and kill. It has by far the best kill efficiency. The only real rival is Scimitar, but that is best used to make enemies vulnerable and attack with a squad Warp bomb.

Also, most enemies are not grouped closely together (i.e. there are a lot more single or double targets than groups of 3+), and when it comes to killing single/double targets, Claymore has no match IMHO.

Against the big, tough targets (e.g. Shadow Broker), Claymore is the most effective, no contest.

Just my opinion though, but at least I can honestly say I base the opinion on my own experience gained while
PLAYING the game. 

Modifié par Kronner, 19 novembre 2011 - 11:59 .

[lastpatriot]

For the last two days, I have been going back and forth between the Scim and Eviscerator and to be honest, I'm not sure yet which one I like best. The ability to kill a target with 1 shot + a melee on the Evis is rather nice but after watching a few more vids of the Scim, I am starting to think that will be the best route to take. I've set up my team now to use them for the area pull + warp bomb (nasty trick...) and that appears to work well. However, for my additional ability, I'm still using area reave. Should I change over to stasis or rework it so I can use pull?

[xassantex]

i've used stasis only against YMIRs ( when i don't forget to retrain! ) otherwise it's always slam .
not only it has a fast CD, it's kind of comical to watch too .

[capn233]

Kronner wrote...

Just my opinion though, but at least I can honestly say I base the opinion on my own experience gained while
PLAYING the game. 

I don't take offense.  I basically trust my own judgements in the game too.  But I will try out some of the ideas I see on here from time to time.

I basically never felt the Claymore was so much better than the Eviscerator that I would give up an extra weapon.