188 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

onelifecrisis wrote...
Thanks. Okay here's a riddle for you.

I generally play a paragade male. I like Garrus and Tali. I did the Liara romance in ME1 for the lulz and the alien side boob, but hated the ridiculous Liara rewrite in ME2. I want my choices to finally matter. I don't like plot holes. What kind of ME3 player am I?

I'd say that you're going to like most parts of the game.

[SNascimento]

How many plot devices to end a story there is? Damn!

[onelifecrisis]

Thanks SWM.

Hmm, I just found the leaked script in my DL folder. Started reading. Damn that thing is a mess... but I already found one decision from ME1 that seems to have ended up being for nothing...

Guess I'm going to have to dive in.

Edited to add:
Oh, it's a DEM, alright. Those extinct aliens sure are good at pulling central plot solutions out of their arses. On the upside, there's some damn funny dialogue in here.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 novembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[Someone With Mass]

It gets better later on.

[BlueAlchemy]

Blargh! I can only guess.... don't want to know though... could incite rage. Will wait until release date. Until then... forums, fan trailers, oh and FUS ROH DAH!

[CaptainZaysh]

Onelife, it's really not a Deus Ex Machina. It's a plot device. You kind of need those.

You seem to have this idea that any new element introduced ME3 introduces to the plot is the dreaded DEM. Do you really want ME3 to contain no new plot devices?

[onelifecrisis]

Kinda had this conversation already. It didn't end well. Summary of my position: this is Part III, not Part I or even Part II.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 novembre 2011 - 02:43 .

[DiebytheSword]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Onelife, it's really not a Deus Ex Machina. It's a plot device. You kind of need those.

You seem to have this idea that any new element introduced ME3 introduces to the plot is the dreaded DEM. Do you really want ME3 to contain no new plot devices?

Spare your typing fingers.  To him its a DEM.

I agree with you however (spoilery):

Building it, making it, carrying it, fighting for it, and moving it through heavily armed enemies means its not doing any swooping, saving or autonomous breaking of internal plot logic and since it happens throughout the story of ME3, its not showing up at the end.

[Sgt Stryker]

@onelifecrisis

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the ghost army in Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, or the Eagles for that matter?

[someone else]

Interesting discussion - plenty of plot material to resolve the reapers w/out resort to divine intervention, though. No idea what bioware is planning, but the dark energy research from tali's RM is provocative - also - speaking of McGuffins', no one has mentioned the elephant in the room - Shep - whom the reapers seem fixated upon incorporating ~live~ into their plans - what if he figures out how to "ASSUME CONTROL"? Also, in "Retribution" I believe the Reapers whisper to Khalee that the 'marriage' of reaper and organic is a mutual salvation - a comment which Karpyshyn leaves unexplained. Finally, there is the remote possibility that a race of multi-million year old beings are not all genocidal maniacs - perchance we are dealing with a heretic fringe? - Point is not to promote any of these ideas, but only to argue there is plenty within the canon that could be used with some intellectual and dramatic effect.

[onelifecrisis]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

@onelifecrisis

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the ghost army in Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, or the Eagles for that matter?

Ghost army was BS. But to LotR has two things to its credit.
1) It's established at the very start that ring + mount doom = win.
2) The battle at the end of the third book was just a way to buy time for Frodo.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 novembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[didymos1120]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Ghost army was BS.

It's rather different in the novel than the films, and despite the mention of the book, you seem to have the film version in mind here.  The Army of the Dead never even goes anywhere near Pelennor in the novel.

Modifié par didymos1120, 16 novembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[onelifecrisis]

didymos1120 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Ghost army was BS.

It's rather different in the novel (yes, novel, singular.  It was never intended to be, or written as, a trilogy).

It's 16 years since I read the LotR, so my memory may be hazy, but I remember being all WTF? about the ghost army even back then. IIRC they weren't foreshadowed at all.

[onelifecrisis]

didymos1120 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Ghost army was BS.

It's rather different in the novel than the films, and despite the mention of the book, you seem to have the film version in mind here.  The Army of the Dead never even goes anywhere near Pelennor in the novel.

They do go through the paths of the dead though, right? Tell me I remembered that bit right. And they get an army of dead people who help with something, maybe not pelennor but they definitely did something.

At any rate, it was BS in the film.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

MACGRUBER!

[BlueAlchemy]

^ This. Wish he was a squaddie during the suicide mission.

[didymos1120]

onelifecrisis wrote...

They do go through the paths of the dead though, right? Tell me I remembered that bit right.

Yeah, they do.  Aragorn only uses them to fight in the south of Gondor though, and then leads a more mundane army north after that.

Modifié par didymos1120, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:28 .

[CaptainZaysh]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Kinda had this conversation already. It didn't end well. Summary of my position: this is Part III, not Part I or even Part II.

So any solution introduced in part 3 is by definition a DEM to you?

Listen, the solution to killing the Reapers couldn't have been introduced in ME1 since the vast majority of that game revolved around finding out what the hell the Reapers were.  So ME1 is out.

Are you saying that if they had introduced the exact same ME3 Macguffin in ME2, you'd be fine with it?

[CaptainZaysh]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Spare your typing fingers.  To him its a DEM.

I just can't help myself.

[didymos1120]

someone else wrote...

 Also, in "Retribution" I believe the Reapers whisper to Khalee that the 'marriage' of reaper and organic is a mutual salvation - a comment which Karpyshyn leaves unexplained.

They don't whisper.  They speak through the altered Grayson (who does have some indoctrination capability, however):

"Why are you here?” Kahlee asked. “What do you want from us?”

She wasn’t sure if the Reapers would even reply. All she was hoping for was that she might be able to engage the Reapers enough to give Grayson a fighting chance. A fighting chance to do what, however, she couldn’t say.

“We seek salvation,” Grayson said, much to her surprise. “Ours and yours.”

“Salvation? Is that what the Collectors were doing? Saving those human colonists? Is that what you did to Grayson?”

“He has been repurposed. He has evolved into something greater than a random assortment of cells and organic refuse.”

“That randomness is what made him unique,” Kahlee countered. “It made him special.”

She noticed that their pace had become more measured and deliberate. If Grayson was still inside there, if he had any influence at all, he was using it to slow the Reapers down. He was trying to buy her time to escape. The best thing she could do was try to keep them talking.

“Why can’t you just leave us alone? Why can’t you just let us live our lives in peace?”

“We are the keepers of the cycle. The creators and the destroyers. Your existence is a flicker, a spark. We can extinguish it—or we can preserve it. Submit to us and we can make you immortal.”

“I don’t want to be immortal,” she said. “I just want to be me.”

They were barely moving at all now. Grayson had managed to bring their hurried escape from the Academy down to a crawl.

“Organic life lives, dies, and is forgotten. You cannot fully comprehend anything beyond this. Yet there is a realm of existence beyond your understanding.”

There was something odd about the things Grayson was saying. She knew he was speaking on behalf of the Reapers, but it seemed like he—or they—actually wanted her to understand their position. It was like they were trying to persuade her to agree with them, but they didn’t know how to frame their arguments in a way she could relate to. Or maybe there simply was no way for organic beings to relate to hyperintelligent machines.

“We are the pinnacle of evolution,” they continued. “Yet we see potential in your species. You can be elevated. The weakness of organic flesh can be cast aside. You can transcend yourselves.”

The words didn’t really make any kind of compelling argument, but she felt as if there was some deeper meaning to them.

“Your understanding is limited by genetics. You cannot see beyond the brief instant of your own existence. Yet our knowledge is infinite, as are we.”

The more Grayson spoke, the more his words seemed to make sense on a deep, almost subconscious level.

“The laws of this universe are inviolate. Immutable. Your resistance will only lead to your extinction. What we are—what we do—is inevitable.”

Kahlee was so far under the Reapers’s spell, she wasn’t even aware she was nodding along in agreement.

[RiouHotaru]

didymos1120 wrote...

someone else wrote...

 Also, in "Retribution" I believe the Reapers whisper to Khalee that the 'marriage' of reaper and organic is a mutual salvation - a comment which Karpyshyn leaves unexplained.

They don't whisper.  They speak through the altered Grayson (who does have some indoctrination capability, however):

"Why are you here?” Kahlee asked. “What do you want from us?”

She wasn’t sure if the Reapers would even reply. All she was hoping for was that she might be able to engage the Reapers enough to give Grayson a fighting chance. A fighting chance to do what, however, she couldn’t say.

“We seek salvation,” Grayson said, much to her surprise. “Ours and yours.”

“Salvation? Is that what the Collectors were doing? Saving those human colonists? Is that what you did to Grayson?”

“He has been repurposed. He has evolved into something greater than a random assortment of cells and organic refuse.”

“That randomness is what made him unique,” Kahlee countered. “It made him special.”

She noticed that their pace had become more measured and deliberate. If Grayson was still inside there, if he had any influence at all, he was using it to slow the Reapers down. He was trying to buy her time to escape. The best thing she could do was try to keep them talking.

“Why can’t you just leave us alone? Why can’t you just let us live our lives in peace?”

“We are the keepers of the cycle. The creators and the destroyers. Your existence is a flicker, a spark. We can extinguish it—or we can preserve it. Submit to us and we can make you immortal.”

“I don’t want to be immortal,” she said. “I just want to be me.”

They were barely moving at all now. Grayson had managed to bring their hurried escape from the Academy down to a crawl.

“Organic life lives, dies, and is forgotten. You cannot fully comprehend anything beyond this. Yet there is a realm of existence beyond your understanding.”

There was something odd about the things Grayson was saying. She knew he was speaking on behalf of the Reapers, but it seemed like he—or they—actually wanted her to understand their position. It was like they were trying to persuade her to agree with them, but they didn’t know how to frame their arguments in a way she could relate to. Or maybe there simply was no way for organic beings to relate to hyperintelligent machines.

“We are the pinnacle of evolution,” they continued. “Yet we see potential in your species. You can be elevated. The weakness of organic flesh can be cast aside. You can transcend yourselves.”

The words didn’t really make any kind of compelling argument, but she felt as if there was some deeper meaning to them.

“Your understanding is limited by genetics. You cannot see beyond the brief instant of your own existence. Yet our knowledge is infinite, as are we.”

The more Grayson spoke, the more his words seemed to make sense on a deep, almost subconscious level.

“The laws of this universe are inviolate. Immutable. Your resistance will only lead to your extinction. What we are—what we do—is inevitable.”

Kahlee was so far under the Reapers’s spell, she wasn’t even aware she was nodding along in agreement.

I actually LIKE the part where Kahlee realizes that the Reapers (through Greyson) are trying to break down their argument into the simplest terms, but simply cannot do it in a way that she (and by proxy, others) can understand it.  I wonder if that will come up in ME3

[robarcool]

Hmm. No spoilers (not that I am looking for any), but this thread is getting pretty interesting.

Modifié par robarcool, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:46 .

[Blacklash93]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Arcian wrote...

A DEM is only a DEM if it comes out of the blue in the last act of the work in question, with no previous mention or knowledge by the relevant characters. As someone who has read the spoiler leaks, I can say right away that this is not the case in ME3.

Then again, you can say a lot without telling the truth or being honest to yourself and others.

That's right. Take Kaiser here, for example, who's just sore about Cerberus' portrayal and has let that poison his entire view on the game...

...See how easy that is? I can unjustly discredit others' opinions, too.

Yeah, I see that you - like Arcian - are also able to twist the truth into something unrecognisable in an attempt to make yourself look good.

Too bad that neither of you succeeds, mainly due to obviously proclaiming outright falsehoods.

I'm impressed, Kaiser. You learn quickly.

I'm so proud.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:55 .

[onelifecrisis]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Are you saying that if they had introduced the exact same ME3 Macguffin in ME2, you'd be fine with it?

This "macguffin" has other problems besides the timing, but yes, that's essentially what I was saying.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 novembre 2011 - 03:58 .

[CaptainZaysh]

onelifecrisis wrote...

This "macguffin" has other problems besides the timing, but yes, that's essentially what I was saying.

But you accept the Macguffin can be introduced part way through the story.  It doesn't need to be right there for the characters from the start.  So at what specific point does a Macguffin turn into a DEM for you?

For most people it's "at the very end", and "without any input from the hero".  But you don't seem to be using that definition.  Or to put it another way: the Ark of the Covenant is a DEM (and even as a kid I knew there was something screwy about that ending), but the shield bunker on Endor is just a plot device.  I think the ME3 Macguffin is more like the shield bunker than the Ark.