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[onelifecrisis]

Do you consider the virus in Independence Day to be a DEM? Most people do. Yet it wasn't introduced at the very end, and it did require input from the heros (they had to fly to the alien ship and upload the virus).

Such super-strict definitions of DEM simply don't work. The important aspect of a DEM (and what people don't like about them) is that they invalidate what has come before them. When "what has come before" is in fact the majority of the story, there's a problem. That's exactly what happens in ME3.

And the shield bunker on endor is used as part of a new problem (the new death star) that was introduced in episode 6, not in episode 4.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 16 novembre 2011 - 04:29 .

[Badpie]

DiebytheSword wrote...

A Deus Ex Machina plot device is a device that swoops in to save the day, breaking the internal logic and consistancy of the plot. It is unlikely that anything will be doing any swooping. Bioware knows swooping is bad.

Now, it is highly likely that we will see a MacGuffin, or a Checkov's Gun. These literary devices are acceptable in light of an overwhelming enemy like the Reapers. If these devices require hardship on the part of the protagonist to obtain or understand, they are not Deus Ex Machinas (a win button stops being a win button when you need to fight through the enemy to press it).

[Fiery Phoenix]

didymos1120 wrote...

someone else wrote...

 Also, in "Retribution" I believe the Reapers whisper to Khalee that the 'marriage' of reaper and organic is a mutual salvation - a comment which Karpyshyn leaves unexplained.

They don't whisper.  They speak through the altered Grayson (who does have some indoctrination capability, however):

"Why are you here?” Kahlee asked. “What do you want from us?”

She wasn’t sure if the Reapers would even reply. All she was hoping for was that she might be able to engage the Reapers enough to give Grayson a fighting chance. A fighting chance to do what, however, she couldn’t say.

“We seek salvation,” Grayson said, much to her surprise. “Ours and yours.”

“Salvation? Is that what the Collectors were doing? Saving those human colonists? Is that what you did to Grayson?”

“He has been repurposed. He has evolved into something greater than a random assortment of cells and organic refuse.”

“That randomness is what made him unique,” Kahlee countered. “It made him special.”

She noticed that their pace had become more measured and deliberate. If Grayson was still inside there, if he had any influence at all, he was using it to slow the Reapers down. He was trying to buy her time to escape. The best thing she could do was try to keep them talking.

“Why can’t you just leave us alone? Why can’t you just let us live our lives in peace?”

“We are the keepers of the cycle. The creators and the destroyers. Your existence is a flicker, a spark. We can extinguish it—or we can preserve it. Submit to us and we can make you immortal.”

“I don’t want to be immortal,” she said. “I just want to be me.”

They were barely moving at all now. Grayson had managed to bring their hurried escape from the Academy down to a crawl.

“Organic life lives, dies, and is forgotten. You cannot fully comprehend anything beyond this. Yet there is a realm of existence beyond your understanding.”

There was something odd about the things Grayson was saying. She knew he was speaking on behalf of the Reapers, but it seemed like he—or they—actually wanted her to understand their position. It was like they were trying to persuade her to agree with them, but they didn’t know how to frame their arguments in a way she could relate to. Or maybe there simply was no way for organic beings to relate to hyperintelligent machines.

“We are the pinnacle of evolution,” they continued. “Yet we see potential in your species. You can be elevated. The weakness of organic flesh can be cast aside. You can transcend yourselves.”

The words didn’t really make any kind of compelling argument, but she felt as if there was some deeper meaning to them.

“Your understanding is limited by genetics. You cannot see beyond the brief instant of your own existence. Yet our knowledge is infinite, as are we.”

The more Grayson spoke, the more his words seemed to make sense on a deep, almost subconscious level.

“The laws of this universe are inviolate. Immutable. Your resistance will only lead to your extinction. What we are—what we do—is inevitable.”

Kahlee was so far under the Reapers’s spell, she wasn’t even aware she was nodding along in agreement.

This was my favorite part of Retribution. By far.

[someone else]

Concede its Grayson's voice but still maintain it is the same whispers Saren and Benizia, among others heard...

And I love that you posted the entire section - a standout I think.  I also think the Reaper's pitch is passed off a bit too easily - easy to see why for dramatic purposes - [need to thank mordin] - and if just for giggles, they could deliver as promised, a major league DEM might be just what the Dr. orderd.   Dr?

Modifié par someone else, 16 novembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[didymos1120]

someone else wrote...

Concede its Grayson's voice but still maintain it is the same whispers Saron and Benizia, among others heard...

Saren probably did hear stuff like that, and possibly during the early "whisper stage" of his indoctrination. But once the claws were in, Sovvy just talked to him, as Saren told us himself.  Benezia? Probably not.  She didn't even know Sovereign was a Reaper, nor did she say anything much like that sales pitch when under the "spell".  Her loyalty had been fixed on Saren. Same for Shiala.  As for the test subjects on Virmire?  We don't know what exactly they heard.  Maybe they got versions of that speech, maybe they didn't. 

[someone else]

...could be just nasty little nanides adding up in the old quantum stream...Lipitor v7.0 anyone?  Point is, the Reapers primary method of "communication/indoctrination" occurs at a neural, sub-cognitive level - thougth, speech, etc are simply more "incarnate" forms of the same...

As far as Benizia and Saren are concerned, by the time they come into the story, Sovvy has a plan that doesn't require recruiting human allies - perhaps the lack of success with the "sales pitch" - the comment that Reaper/Grayson seems to be grasping for a convincing way to present the case - made direct action - siezing the conduit, etc. and the old scorched earth approach the only way to go after all...  so much for friendly persuasion and the sweet voice of reason...

Modifié par someone else, 16 novembre 2011 - 01:49 .

[RiouHotaru]

DiebytheSword wrote...

A Deus Ex Machina plot device is a device that swoops in to save the day, breaking the internal logic and consistancy of the plot. It is unlikely that anything will be doing any swooping. Bioware knows swooping is bad.

Now, it is highly likely that we will see a MacGuffin, or a Checkov's Gun. These literary devices are acceptable in light of an overwhelming enemy like the Reapers. If these devices require hardship on the part of the protagonist to obtain or understand, they are not Deus Ex Machinas (a win button stops being a win button when you need to fight through the enemy to press it).

This.  People all over the place that I know (Besides BSN) have been declaring it's a DEM and that Casey lied (he said there'd be no "magic solution" to the problem).  For starters, he stated that there'd be numerous Red Herrings, so it's unclear whether or not any of what's in the script is the actual solution or just a false lead.

Regardless however, it's not a DEM, it's either a MacGuffin for a Chekov's Gun, depending upon how it's presented.  A DEM is defined as "abruptly" and "suddenly" coming out of nowhere to fix all the problems.  As Sword as stated, as soon as you start having to work towards being able to push the win button, it stops being a DEM.

C'mon folks, this is basic literature.

[psiasterisk]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Do you consider the virus in Independence Day to be a DEM? Most people do. Yet it wasn't introduced at the very end, and it did require input from the heros (they had to fly to the alien ship and upload the virus).

Strictly speaking, the Independence day virus is not a DEM since it doesn´t rely on an outside agent that knowns more than the heroes. It is however what some people consider an "a** pull" and generally bad form.

But again: A story with a DEM isn´t bad simply because it includes one, but because is is employed in a less than intelligent fashion. But, as already pointed out, using DEMs effectively is notoriously difficult, which is why most story that rely on DEMs are bad.

[BlueAlchemy]

psiasterisk wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Do you consider the virus in Independence Day to be a DEM? Most people do. Yet it wasn't introduced at the very end, and it did require input from the heros (they had to fly to the alien ship and upload the virus).

Strictly speaking, the Independence day virus is not a DEM since it doesn´t rely on an outside agent that knowns more than the heroes. It is however what some people consider an "a** pull" and generally bad form.

But again: A story with a DEM isn´t bad simply because it includes one, but because is is employed in a less than intelligent fashion. But, as already pointed out, using DEMs effectively is notoriously difficult, which is why most story that rely on DEMs are bad.

I thought Donnie Darko pulled it off pretty well. DEM that is.

[CaptainZaysh]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Do you consider the virus in Independence Day to be a DEM? Most people do. Yet it wasn't introduced at the very end, and it did require input from the heros (they had to fly to the alien ship and upload the virus).

No.  The (literal) virus that kills the aliens in the War of the Worlds is deus ex machina; the virus the heroes introduce to the enemy mothership in Independence Day is not (because the heroes themselves had to figure out what to do and execute it themselves).

It's retarded, but it isn't deus ex machina.  The problem with calling a thing what it isn't is that it tends to make discussion impossible.

"Let's not have this ending where Jeff Goldblum uploads a virus because it's a deus ex machina," is only ever going to get the response: "No, it isn't."

"Let's not have the ending where Jeff Goldblum uploads a virus because it's s**t," however, is the start of a much more productive conversation - one which we can only wish the writers had had, I suppose.

Because it really was s**t.

[DiebytheSword]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Do you consider the virus in Independence Day to be a DEM? Most people do. Yet it wasn't introduced at the very end, and it did require input from the heros (they had to fly to the alien ship and upload the virus).

No.  The (literal) virus that kills the aliens in the War of the Worlds is deus ex machina; the virus the heroes introduce to the enemy mothership in Independence Day is not (because the heroes themselves had to figure out what to do and execute it themselves).

It's retarded, but it isn't deus ex machina.  The problem with calling a thing what it isn't is that it tends to make discussion impossible.

"Let's not have this ending where Jeff Goldblum uploads a virus because it's a deus ex machina," is only ever going to get the response: "No, it isn't."

"Let's not have the ending where Jeff Goldblum uploads a virus because it's s**t," however, is the start of a much more productive conversation - one which we can only wish the writers had had, I suppose.

Because it really was s**t.

I really, really agree with this post.  Independence Day's end was not a DEM, it was crap (we can safely agree on that), but not a DEM.

To that end, you might think ME3's end is crap, and I'm not going to argue your tastes.  I am going to argue that its not a DEM though.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 16 novembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

This was my favorite part of Retribution. By far.

My favourite part was the bit where the keepers dragged Kahlee away and flung her, kicking and screaming, into the protein vats to her death.

"The keepers took Kahlee!" yelled Bailey.  "They're going to throw her into the protein vats!"

Anderson's eyes widened.  "Come on!"  The two men were in their fifties, desk jockeys by their own admission, but decades of harsh physical work had imbued their bodies with a distinct hardness.  They loped along the catwalks at a pace that would have shaken out civilian runners half their age.

"We're nearly there," cried Bailey.  "Through that doorway!"  The doorway that two keepers were scuttling out of.  Anderson dashed between them, nearly bashing them off the catwalk to the bustling ward below, his dress shoes clattering on the metal grille.  Bailey's boots were pounding scarce feet behind him.

He emerged on a railing, on the upper level of a vast, dimly lit room.  Far below was one of the protein vats - a seething cauldron of bubbling brown liquid.  A hot wave of foul air swept up to meet him.  His eyes watered but the sight was unmistakeable.  Bobbing in the centre, partly submerged, was the face down body of Kahlee Sanders.

"That's Kahlee, alright," panted Bailey.  "I'd recognise that rare shade of blonde anywhere."

"She may still be alive," murmured Anderson.  "Shouldn't we...do something for her?"

Beside him on the railing, Bailey shook his head.  "Let's give it a few minutes," he said.

Anderson nodded grimly.  He felt the same way.  They weren't here to rescue her.  They were here to make sure.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[Wittand25]

RiouHotaru wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

A Deus Ex Machina plot device is a device that swoops in to save the day, breaking the internal logic and consistancy of the plot. It is unlikely that anything will be doing any swooping. Bioware knows swooping is bad.

Now, it is highly likely that we will see a MacGuffin, or a Checkov's Gun. These literary devices are acceptable in light of an overwhelming enemy like the Reapers. If these devices require hardship on the part of the protagonist to obtain or understand, they are not Deus Ex Machinas (a win button stops being a win button when you need to fight through the enemy to press it).

This.  People all over the place that I know (Besides BSN) have been declaring it's a DEM and that Casey lied (he said there'd be no "magic solution" to the problem).  For starters, he stated that there'd be numerous Red Herrings, so it's unclear whether or not any of what's in the script is the actual solution or just a false lead.

Regardless however, it's not a DEM, it's either a MacGuffin for a Chekov's Gun, depending upon how it's presented.  A DEM is defined as "abruptly" and "suddenly" coming out of nowhere to fix all the problems.  As Sword as stated, as soon as you start having to work towards being able to push the win button, it stops being a DEM.

C'mon folks, this is basic literature.

A MacGuffin is a pointless or misleading device/person to move the story along. The collecting the army in DA:O was one since you did not need to use them in the final fight. The conduit is a MacGuffin since by chasing it Shepard did not achieve anything that he would not have been able to do by staying on the citadel, but in this chase the device seems important to end the reaper threat so it is no MacGuffin.
The whole thing could be coonsidert a Checkov´s gun since the fact that some Protheans survived the reaping of their circle is already revealed in ME1.
But it also has signs of a DEM. How can we possibly fight the reapers and win? -> Here are plans to build something that is able to destroy them. Which is an classic example of a DEM even if the hero still has to actually build the thing afterwards since the DEM in that case is not the device but the plans to construct it.

But honestly I do not see the big trouble in the DEM ending. Considering the setup it was always rather clear that the ending would have signs of DEM since winning a regular war does not fit well into the shape of an RPG that is centered around a main character.

Modifié par Wittand25, 17 novembre 2011 - 01:03 .

[RiouHotaru]

Wittand25 wrote...

A MacGuffin is a pointless or misleading device/person to move the story along. The collecting the army in DA:O was one since you did not need to use them in the final fight. The conduit is a MacGuffin since by chasing it Shepard did not achieve anything that he would not have been able to do by staying on the citadel, but in this chase the device seems important to end the reaper threat so it is no MacGuffin.
The whole thing could be coonsidert a Checkov´s gun since the fact that some Protheans survived the reaping of their circle is already revealed in ME1.
But it also has signs of a DEM. How can we possibly fight the reapers and win? -> Here are plans to build something that is able to destroy them. Which is an classic example of a DEM even if the hero still has to actually build the thing afterwards since the DEM in that case is not the device but the plans to construct it.

But honestly I do not see the big trouble in the DEM ending. Considering the setup it was always rather clear that the ending would have signs of DEM since winning a regular war does not fit well into the shape of an RPG that is centered around a main character.

Except it's not a DEM if they find plans for a "magic win button", have to build the win button, or have to fight to be able to use it.  Discovering a win button exists doesn't make it a DEM.  If it pops in at the last possible moment and magically pushes ITSELF and saves the day, then it's a DEM.

[knightnblu]

DiebytheSword wrote...

A Deus Ex Machina plot device is a device that swoops in to save the day, breaking the internal logic and consistancy of the plot. It is unlikely that anything will be doing any swooping. Bioware knows swooping is bad.

Now, it is highly likely that we will see a MacGuffin, or a Checkov's Gun. These literary devices are acceptable in light of an overwhelming enemy like the Reapers. If these devices require hardship on the part of the protagonist to obtain or understand, they are not Deus Ex Machinas (a win button stops being a win button when you need to fight through the enemy to press it).

I would only add that the Deus Ex Machina is a plot device that usually screams "bad story."

[onelifecrisis]

Wittand25 wrote...

A MacGuffin is a pointless or misleading device/person to move the story along. The collecting the army in DA:O was one since you did not need to use them in the final fight. The conduit is a MacGuffin since by chasing it Shepard did not achieve anything that he would not have been able to do by staying on the citadel, but in this chase the device seems important to end the reaper threat so it is no MacGuffin.

Definitely this. It's not a macguffin.

Wittand25 wrote...

The whole thing could be coonsidert a Checkov´s gun since the fact that some Protheans survived the reaping of their circle is already revealed in ME1.

Debatable. ME3's "Checkov's gun" is the equivalent of being shown a literal Checkov's gun (i.e. a revolver) in Act 1, and then someone picking up said revolver in Act 3 and discovering that each bullet it fires is actually a nuke.

Surviving Protheans were revealed in Act1, but no hint was given that they had any clue how to defeat the reapers. In fact they had to go to extreme lengths just to manage to give us a fighting chance at delaying the reapers. That they can now provide a win button was not in any way foreshadowed, so this doesn't qualify as a Chekov's gun.

------------

Regardless, at least this time Shepard has a goal to aim for and isn't wandering around the galaxy with no particular objective. So it's an improvement over ME2.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 17 novembre 2011 - 02:46 .

[The Sapien]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Debatable. ME3's "Checkov's gun" is the equivalent of being shown a literal Checkov's gun (i.e. a revolver) in Act 1, and then someone picking up said revolver in Act 3 and discovering that each bullet it fires is actually a nuke.

Surviving Protheans were revealed in Act1, but no hint was given that they had any clue how to defeat the reapers. In fact they had to go to extreme lengths just to manage to give us a fighting chance at delaying the reapers. That they can now provide a win button was not in any way foreshadowed, so this doesn't qualify as a Chekov's gun.

------------

Regardless, at least this time Shepard has a goal to aim for and isn't wandering around the galaxy with no particular objective. So it's an improvement over ME2.

I agree that a Prothean win button was already used to prevent the Reapers from beheading the council and a surprise attack. So that card has already been played.

But no objective in ME2??? Did we play the same game? ME3 looks to be a lot of wandering to me, especially when every second more people are getting annihalated back on Earth.

[Gabey5]

from what i have skimmed there is plenty of that in me3

[CaptainZaysh]

Wittand25 wrote...

A MacGuffin is a pointless or misleading device/person to move the story along.

Wait, that's not right.  A MacGuffin is interchangeable but it's not necessarily pointless or misleading.  The Ark of the Covenant, or the Maltese Falcon, or Rosebud are classic MacGuffins and they're not pointless or misleading.  This conversation is just not going to advance unless we can agree on the definitions.

Also:

Wittand25 wrote...
The collecting the army in DA:O was one since you did not need to use them in the final fight.

Without the army you and your three buddies would have had to fight the entire Darkspawn horde solo.  I'm amazed anybody could think the army wasn't needed to fight the other army.

Wittand25 wrote...
The conduit is a MacGuffin since by chasing it Shepard did not achieve anything that he would not have been able to do by staying on the citadel,

Except recall the Citadel fleet, deny Saren an army of rachni and krogan, learn the nature of the Reaper invasion, and pick up the datafile needed to get the 5th Fleet into position for a shot at Sovereign.

[Dexi]

Lol, I read 5 posts and I already hate this thread.

"Smartguys" using terms horribly wrong... Don't use "Macguffin" if you don't know what it means... Same for "Chekhov's gun". Seriously, it makes me kill a kitten every time I see an idiot pretending to be smart by using really simple terms in disastrous contexts.

[Dexi]

The Sapien wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Debatable. ME3's "Checkov's gun" is the equivalent of being shown a literal Checkov's gun (i.e. a revolver) in Act 1, and then someone picking up said revolver in Act 3 and discovering that each bullet it fires is actually a nuke.

Surviving Protheans were revealed in Act1, but no hint was given that they had any clue how to defeat the reapers. In fact they had to go to extreme lengths just to manage to give us a fighting chance at delaying the reapers. That they can now provide a win button was not in any way foreshadowed, so this doesn't qualify as a Chekov's gun.

------------

Regardless, at least this time Shepard has a goal to aim for and isn't wandering around the galaxy with no particular objective. So it's an improvement over ME2.

I agree that a Prothean win button was already used to prevent the Reapers from beheading the council and a surprise attack. So that card has already been played.

No, it wasn't. For knowing nothing else of what else the Protheans could have done, and their actual plans, that card hasn't been played yet.
Barely foreshadowed. 

[onelifecrisis]

The Sapien wrote...

But no objective in ME2??? Did we play the same game?

I spent the first half of my first ME2 playthrough wondering what the hell I was doing. I could understand the reason for getting Mordin, and the reason for going to Freedom's Progress and Horizon, but I had no idea what I was recruiting badasses for. The only objective/plan you're given, prior to the post-Horizon conversation with TIM, is when TIM says we're going to "take the fight to them", whatever that means. After Horizon TIM makes it clear that you're going to head through the Omega 4 relay, but even then it's not clear what use a team of badasses is supposed to be once you're on the other side.

This is quite a contrast with ME1, where you had reasons for going to the places you go and doing the things you do beyond "becuz TIM told me to". Hopefully ME3 will bring back some of that focus.

[Someone With Mass]

Dexi wrote...

No, it wasn't. For knowing nothing else of what else the Protheans could have done, and their actual plans, that card hasn't been played yet.
Barely foreshadowed. 

LotSB also hints at more Prothean findings there might be out there.

Like the new chamber they found in the Prothean ruins on Mars. It could be important.

[CptBomBom00]

So is there a new BW pulse episode coming today?????

[onelifecrisis]

It's such a shame when people resort to namecalling. But since I'm apparently just a dumb plebian who's trying to appear "smart", when in fact I know nothing about "basic literature", let me show you (courtesy of Google) the writing of someone who you might have more respect for (assuming you guys are even capable of respect).

Meet Philip Dyer, professional script consultant who writes coverage for two studios and for the Academy of Art University, and his article on Deus Ex Machina, which includes Independence Day as a classic example.



Sorry to make an appeal to authority, but it seems that's the only thing that could hold any weight with some posters.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:31 .