188 réponses à ce sujet

[Wittand25]

[quote]CaptainZaysh wrote...

[quote]Wittand25 wrote...

A MacGuffin is a pointless or misleading device/person to move the story along. [/quote]

Wait, that's not right.  A MacGuffin is interchangeable but it's not necessarily pointless or misleading.  The Ark of the Covenant, or the Maltese Falcon, or Rosebud are classic MacGuffins and they're not pointless or misleading.  This conversation is just not going to advance unless we can agree on the definitions.
[/quote]
The very word origings from an anectode about a device for hunting lions in Scottland, it can hardly get any more pointless.
[quote]
[quote]Wittand25 wrote...
The collecting the army in DA:O was one since you did not need to use them in the final fight. [/quote]

Without the army you and your three buddies would have had to fight the entire Darkspawn horde solo.  I'm amazed anybody could think the army wasn't needed to fight the other army.
[/quote]
The army that waited outside the city, while you and three friends make your way across it completly alone ? Also unless I recall wrongly Templars/Mages and Werewolves/Elves seem rather interchangeable.
[/quote][quote]
[quote]Wittand25 wrote...
The conduit is a MacGuffin since by chasing it Shepard did not achieve anything that he would not have been able to do by staying on the citadel, [/quote]

Except recall the Citadel fleet, deny Saren an army of rachni and krogan, learn the nature of the Reaper invasion, and pick up the datafile needed to get the 5th Fleet into position for a shot at Sovereign.
[/quote]
Why would the fleet that stays at the Citadel need to be called to it in the first place ? And considering that Saren ends up dead (twice!) during the fight at the Citadel I don´t see how him leaving behind a secret lab with Krogans or Rachni would change anything since he and the reaper end up rather dead anyway.

Modifié par Wittand25, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:22 .

[The Sapien]

Dexi wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Surviving Protheans were revealed in Act1, but no hint was given that they had any clue how to defeat the reapers. In fact they had to go to extreme lengths just to manage to give us a fighting chance at delaying the reapers. That they can now provide a win button was not in any way foreshadowed, so this doesn't qualify as a Chekov's gun.

I agree that a Prothean win button was already used to prevent the Reapers from beheading the council and a surprise attack. So that card has already been played.

No, it wasn't. For knowing nothing else of what else the Protheans could have done, and their actual plans, that card hasn't been played yet.
Barely foreshadowed. 

Nah, that just grants too much to the Protheans for me. Protheans, Protheans, Protheans, already enough from just one race of countless races over the many cycles. And, how can you say the Prothean card wasn't played in ME1? That was plenty from one race for me. Yes, they're made to be mysterious, allowing for more cards, but I still don't like it. Personally, I was hoping for something coming from the creators of the Reapers or their origins or maybe even other Reaper like beings sympathetic to a united galaxy with creators able to kill one of their own or something deeper.

[SovereignWillReturn]

Eh, I wouldn't be suprised if the Prothies showed up Honestly. I've sortof expected it from all the dropped hints in the first two games.

For me, I don't want some one game reaper killing device, but there's a 99% chance they will use one.

I want there to be multiple epic battles, with some wins, some losses. I want blood, sweat, and tears from the entire galaxy of races, as huge sized fleets clash with the reapers, not some one sided slaughter that is magically turned around by Sheppard and his "Ultra cool plot device that owns the Reapers"

I would accept this device only when All the galazy has fought with all their might, every space bound vessel was destroyed in combat, and some of the reapers are actually taken down, and Sheppard uses his ultra cool plot device thingy in order to mop up because there's nothing else left.

The races of mass effect has a ton of gusto, or according to the codex, I want to see it used. The Reapers better have some casualties as well, and not ones caused directly or indirectly by the good Commander.

Dunno if my point makes it across, but yeah.

[someone else]

Seems to me some clarification of term is in order, as some (not all the posters are mixing apples and bananas.)  A "McGuffin" is a plot device that functions to move the protagonists and the action along in a story - it may nor may not be related to plot resolution - hitchcock coined the term to make that point explicitly. "Deus ex Machina" is a device or phenomenon whose sole purpose is to provide miraculous salvation to an otherwise hopeless cause - the archetype being divine intervention itself - the bible of full of these - and the Second Coming would indeed resolve the reaper threat quite handily....

Modifié par someone else, 17 novembre 2011 - 05:48 .

[The Sapien]

onelifecrisis wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

But no objective in ME2??? Did we play the same game?

I spent the first half of my first ME2 playthrough wondering what the hell I was doing. I could understand the reason for getting Mordin, and the reason for going to Freedom's Progress and Horizon, but I had no idea what I was recruiting badasses for. The only objective/plan you're given, prior to the post-Horizon conversation with TIM, is when TIM says we're going to "take the fight to them", whatever that means. After Horizon TIM makes it clear that you're going to head through the Omega 4 relay, but even then it's not clear what use a team of badasses is supposed to be once you're on the other side.

This is quite a contrast with ME1, where you had reasons for going to the places you go and doing the things you do beyond "becuz TIM told me to". Hopefully ME3 will bring back some of that focus.

ME2 was my intro to the series, and I wasn't that lost, lol. It seemed pretty clear to me from my conversation with TIM before even boarding the Normandy2, since I asked all the available questions. The part that kind of bothered me was risking so much for each new recruit. I mean, I did actually die many times while playing even before getting to the final mission, all just for one more team member. Mordin was the only one worth the risk, IMO. Then going back and playing ME1, all the side missions seemed like they worked against the clock of the main missions, so it depends, if you skipped the side missions, then, yes, it was more focused.
I forgot why we're agruing over focus, tho. I don't know if I prefer more open or more focuses, personally. What I don't like is going off on missions that seem to cut into what is happening in the rest of the story, like the side missions in ME1, and I'm worried that in ME3 I'll be thinking the whole time about I just cut and ran from Earth while it is still being annihalated and how each second that passes who knows how many people are getting slaughtered...

[SovereignWillReturn]

To people who felt lost/confused/non-caring about Mass Effect 2, think of it this way.

Mass Effect 1 was the exposition to the series. Hence why it was so epic
Mass Effect 2 was the character development, so you can get to know the characters and organizations that will have a major role in the plot
Mass Effect 3 is the climax. With the setting thrown down in ME1, and the development in ME2, it makes the final piece of the Trilogy that much better.

[onelifecrisis]

The Sapien wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

But no objective in ME2??? Did we play the same game?

I spent the first half of my first ME2 playthrough wondering what the hell I was doing. I could understand the reason for getting Mordin, and the reason for going to Freedom's Progress and Horizon, but I had no idea what I was recruiting badasses for. The only objective/plan you're given, prior to the post-Horizon conversation with TIM, is when TIM says we're going to "take the fight to them", whatever that means. After Horizon TIM makes it clear that you're going to head through the Omega 4 relay, but even then it's not clear what use a team of badasses is supposed to be once you're on the other side.

This is quite a contrast with ME1, where you had reasons for going to the places you go and doing the things you do beyond "becuz TIM told me to". Hopefully ME3 will bring back some of that focus.

ME2 was my intro to the series, and I wasn't that lost, lol. It seemed pretty clear to me from my conversation with TIM before even boarding the Normandy2, since I asked all the available questions.

Maybe you could quote some of those questions and answers? The ones that made it obvious what the plan was, I mean, and what role badasses would play in it.

The Sapien wrote...

The part that kind of bothered me was risking so much for each new recruit. I mean, I did actually die many times while playing even before getting to the final mission, all just for one more team member. Mordin was the only one worth the risk, IMO.

I can see what you're saying there. I didn't die much at all (Normal Difficulty FTW) so I didn't have that problem.

The Sapien wrote...

Then going back and playing ME1, all the side missions seemed like they worked against the clock of the main missions

This I totally agree with, and it's something I hate about RPG side missions in general, but I was talking about the main story missions in ME1, not the side missions.

[The Sapien]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dexi wrote...

No, it wasn't. For knowing nothing else of what else the Protheans could have done, and their actual plans, that card hasn't been played yet.
Barely foreshadowed. 

LotSB also hints at more Prothean findings there might be out there.

Like the new chamber they found in the Prothean ruins on Mars. It could be important.

Yeah, I was just replaying ME1, and at the beginning there is mention of ruins found on Mars. I suppose it would be kewl to discover that Protheans actually lived on Earth during the last cycle and build something there for us and maybe even had a hand in our own creation, designing us to be able to use their technology. Oh, but now I'm getting confused with SG1 tv series.

[Abirn]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Eh, I wouldn't be suprised if the Prothies showed up Honestly. I've sortof expected it from all the dropped hints in the first two games.

For me, I don't want some one game reaper killing device, but there's a 99% chance they will use one.

I want there to be multiple epic battles, with some wins, some losses. I want blood, sweat, and tears from the entire galaxy of races, as huge sized fleets clash with the reapers, not some one sided slaughter that is magically turned around by Sheppard and his "Ultra cool plot device that owns the Reapers"

I would accept this device only when All the galazy has fought with all their might, every space bound vessel was destroyed in combat, and some of the reapers are actually taken down, and Sheppard uses his ultra cool plot device thingy in order to mop up because there's nothing else left.

The races of mass effect has a ton of gusto, or according to the codex, I want to see it used. The Reapers better have some casualties as well, and not ones caused directly or indirectly by the good Commander.

Dunno if my point makes it across, but yeah.

Except the "one side slaughter" has already been setup in the first game.  Remember it took an entire army of multiple races own armies just to take out one reaper.  Now there will be hundreds or thousands of them.  The reapers aren't supposed to be easily defeated in conventional combat.  That was the whole point, they are godlike in their abilities.  a "Deus Ex machina" would be less insulting than it would be to witness the entire point of ME1 and 2 made pointless by nerfing the abilities of the reapers as they have been set up in the first 2 games.

[SovereignWillReturn]

Abirn wrote...

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

Eh, I wouldn't be suprised if the Prothies showed up Honestly. I've sortof expected it from all the dropped hints in the first two games.

For me, I don't want some one game reaper killing device, but there's a 99% chance they will use one.

I want there to be multiple epic battles, with some wins, some losses. I want blood, sweat, and tears from the entire galaxy of races, as huge sized fleets clash with the reapers, not some one sided slaughter that is magically turned around by Sheppard and his "Ultra cool plot device that owns the Reapers"

I would accept this device only when All the galazy has fought with all their might, every space bound vessel was destroyed in combat, and some of the reapers are actually taken down, and Sheppard uses his ultra cool plot device thingy in order to mop up because there's nothing else left.

The races of mass effect has a ton of gusto, or according to the codex, I want to see it used. The Reapers better have some casualties as well, and not ones caused directly or indirectly by the good Commander.

Dunno if my point makes it across, but yeah.

Except the "one side slaughter" has already been setup in the first game.  Remember it took an entire army of multiple races own armies just to take out one reaper.  Now there will be hundreds or thousands of them.  The reapers aren't supposed to be easily defeated in conventional combat.  That was the whole point, they are godlike in their abilities.  a "Deus Ex machina" would be less insulting than it would be to witness the entire point of ME1 and 2 made pointless by nerfing the abilities of the reapers as they have been set up in the first 2 games.

I'm hoping they don't pull a galaxy nerf with the one sided slaughter. After 2 years during ME2 when Shep was being Lazerus'd, The Turians and Humans are mainstreaming Reaper teched weapons into their fleet hardware. The Thalix cannon was the weapon the Sovereign used during ME1, except the beam's blue instead of red. So I'm thinking the races will have some kind of adequete defence over the Reapers since they know what exactly the Tech is their using, (Even though they believe the Reapers don't exist) and be able to deal out the same damage that the Reapers throw out.

So what I'm imagining is a boildown to Reaper Quality, over Galaxy Quantity, except for the Quarians with their non-access to anything Council Research, and their rag-tag fleet of hand-me-downs. Game Over for them.

[Ryzaki]

Not to mention the Reapers are AIs and were created by someone. There is obviously a way to destroy them. Probably with a big ol' self destruct button.

[The Sapien]

Abirn wrote...

Except the "one side slaughter" has already been setup in the first game.  Remember it took an entire army of multiple races own armies just to take out one reaper.  Now there will be hundreds or thousands of them.  The reapers aren't supposed to be easily defeated in conventional combat.  That was the whole point, they are godlike in their abilities.  a "Deus Ex machina" would be less insulting than it would be to witness the entire point of ME1 and 2 made pointless by nerfing the abilities of the reapers as they have been set up in the first 2 games.

Well, yes and no. The Citadel is supposed to be their first attack to cut off the heads of races, so why would they need that if it was a sure thing, aside from getting here in luxury travel? Then, why need an army of Krogan clones? Are the Geth just helping out of worship but needless? Did they need or just want a human reaper? I dunno. I suppose they could viewed as unnecessary and for alternative reasons. Or, they've hyped themselves up a bit?

Or, you're entirely right, and you make a good point.

[The Sapien]

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention the Reapers are AIs and were created by someone. There is obviously a way to destroy them. Probably with a big ol' self destruct button.

I don't agree that being AI's makes them more vulnerable than if they were something else; not even sure what AI is supposed to mean people since to me "technology" is just another means of evolving life. Life is all grey to me. Plus, it's not like we don't have coding within ourselves that can be turned to self destruct, as well. All that aside, I'd still love to learn more about their origins and maybe who competes with Reapers in other galaxies.

[SovereignWillReturn]

The Sapien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention the Reapers are AIs and were created by someone. There is obviously a way to destroy them. Probably with a big ol' self destruct button.

I don't agree that being AI's makes them more vulnerable than if they were something else; not even sure what AI is supposed to mean people since to me "technology" is just another means of evolving life. Life is all grey to me. Plus, it's not like we don't have coding within ourselves that can be turned to self destruct, as well. All that aside, I'd still love to learn more about their origins and maybe who competes with Reapers in other galaxies.

PRetty sure they do have a Self-Destruct button. If you look REALLY closely at screen shots of Harbinger and Sovereign, you can see the label,
 
"Doofenshmirtz Evil Incorperated"

[Ryzaki]

The Sapien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention the Reapers are AIs and were created by someone. There is obviously a way to destroy them. Probably with a big ol' self destruct button.

I don't agree that being AI's makes them more vulnerable than if they were something else; not even sure what AI is supposed to mean people since to me "technology" is just another means of evolving life. Life is all grey to me. Plus, it's not like we don't have coding within ourselves that can be turned to self destruct, as well. All that aside, I'd still love to learn more about their origins and maybe who competes with Reapers in other galaxies.

I do considering what they think their purpose is. Plus...video game.

We aren't built by other species.

[BlueAlchemy]

someone else wrote...

Seems to me some clarification of term is in order, as some (not all the posters are mixing apples and bananas.)  A "McGuffin" is a plot device that functions to move the protagonists and the action along in a story - it may nor may not be related to plot resolution - hitchcock coined the term to make that point explicitly. "Deus ex Machina" is a device or phenomenon whose sole purpose is to provide miraculous salvation to an otherwise hopeless cause - the archetype being divine intervention itself - the bible of full of these - and the Second Coming would indeed resolve the reaper threat quite handily....

Sweet Moses... are you saying... JESUS CHRIST is the mysterious Colllector's Edition squadmate for ME3!

[CaptainZaysh]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Meet Philip Dyer, professional script consultant who writes coverage for two studios and for the Academy of Art University, and his article on Deus Ex Machina, which includes Independence Day as a classic example.



Sorry to make an appeal to authority, but it seems that's the only thing that could hold any weight with some posters.

You're in a bad place when all you have left is a logical fallacy.  I don't think I need to explain this to you, but to counter an argument you should be able to explain why, not point to someone else and say "he says it's so."

It's a fallacy for a reason.

[onelifecrisis]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Meet Philip Dyer, professional script consultant who writes coverage for two studios and for the Academy of Art University, and his article on Deus Ex Machina, which includes Independence Day as a classic example.



Sorry to make an appeal to authority, but it seems that's the only thing that could hold any weight with some posters.

You're in a bad place when all you have left is a logical fallacy.  I don't think I need to explain this to you, but to counter an argument you should be able to explain why, not point to someone else and say "he says it's so."

It's a fallacy for a reason.

Apparently "definiton = fact", or so I have been told in this thread.

[CaptainZaysh]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Apparently "definiton = fact", or so I have been told in this thread.

Well yeah, there is a commonly held definition!  Maybe I'm not really remembering Independence Day right, but I don't think the virus that Jeff Goldblum introduces fits the definition even in the article you linked to:

some convenient contrivance, such as an actual act of God, or the help of some other character who shows up out of the blue, or the sudden introduction of a new ability or some other unexpected bit of perfectly-timed information, or the hero’s sudden realization that, “Hey, someone must have accidentally dropped a gun in my jacket pocket, so I’ll just use that to shoot the bad guy and get away!”

None of that stuff describes the hero figuring out a weapon to negate the enemy's defensive advantage, building the weapon himself, infiltrating it into the enemy's HQ and then deploying it so his pals can attack, does it?

I agree with you that Jeff Goldblum should no more have been able to hack an alien military supercomputer with a laptop than I would be able to turn on a microwave with a pocket calculator.  Like I said, it's retarded.  But I don't see how it qualifies as the dreaded deus ex machina and I never will unless you can explain it to me.  (You or Phil Dyer - I've asked him, too.)

[DiebytheSword]

onelifecrisis wrote...

[Apparently "definiton = fact", or so I have been told in this thread.

Seriously, we were just getting along so well in the other thread.

This is your argument with him now, don't pull me back in.

But, since you did I'll play nice while I can.

The Independence Day example is a bad one because we have evidence that we've interfaced with the Alien's tech at least twice before.  Area 51's ship was hooked up to computers and studied before Goldblum's character got there, and the Alien signal interfered with Earth's sattelites first, which Goldblum's character discovered that their signal was interfacing with ours.  Obviously they had a signal that operated on a binary language for that to work.  Attacking that network on the return path is viable because they are using it to coordinate all of their ships.  Its dumb, it sucks, but its set up properly before hand and still requires them to get past hurdles to do.  It wasn't a win button because it knocked down their shields, it didn't kill them all.  The Nuke did that.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 17 novembre 2011 - 11:31 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Wittand25 wrote...

The very word origings from an anectode about a device for hunting lions in Scottland, it can hardly get any more pointless.

That's a silly argument and I think you know it.  The Ark of the Covenant is not pointless because of the hitchcock anecdote.

Wittand25 wrote...
The army that waited outside the city, while you and three friends make your way across it completly alone ? 

I don't know about you but I always presumed there was some fighting going on off screen.

Wittand25 wrote...
Also unless I recall wrongly Templars/Mages and Werewolves/Elves seem rather interchangeable.

Yes, mate, that's kind of my point!

Wittand25 wrote...
Why would the fleet that stays at the Citadel need to be called to it in the first place ?

The Council recalls their fleet into a defensive posture in Virmire.  It's established that the Citadel fleet goes on expeditions early in the game (by Udina: "That is not good enough!  Send your fleet in!").  If the Council had not recalled the fleet there would have been even fewer ships to defend against Sovereign's attack.

Wittand25 wrote...
And considering that Saren ends up dead (twice!) during the fight at the Citadel I don´t see how him leaving behind a secret lab with Krogans or Rachni would change anything since he and the reaper end up rather dead anyway.

The Reaper ends up dead because Shepard uses Vigil's data file to unlock the relays, allowing the Alliance's 5th Fleet to enter the battlespace.  No data file = no 5th Fleet = no one to kill the Reaper (especially since in your scenario the Citadel Fleet would be smaller).

Saren ends up dead because his ground force (the geth) weren't strong enough to hold their perimeter against the C-Sec quick reaction force and stop Shepard from reaching Saren.  If his ground force were swollen by large numbers of krogan and rachni troops it may well have played out differently.  Remember that Shepard interrupts Saren from gaining control of the master control unit with seconds to spare.  One more firefight with rachni or krogan clones would have led to a Saren victory.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 17 novembre 2011 - 11:51 .

[onelifecrisis]

I didn't mean to single you out or pull you back in, DieByTheSword. I quoted you only because you'd very concisely said what several others have said.

If nothing else I have established that a well educated source (not just a "peasant" or a "smart mouth" on a forum) differs with you regarding the definition of what is and is not a DEM. There were other Google results as well, but I'm sure people can find them if they want to. That might not (and indeed should not) necessarily be enough for anyone to change what they think of as a DEM, but it might at least give some pause for thought before they insult and belittle those who have a different definition.

CaptainZaysh, if Jeff Goldblum's laptop -> mothership interface is not a "new ability" that is a "convenient contrivance", "suddenly introduced", and is "unexpected" then I don't know what I can tell you to convince you that it is.

[The Sapien]

Ryzaki wrote...

The Sapien wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention the Reapers are AIs and were created by someone. There is obviously a way to destroy them. Probably with a big ol' self destruct button.

I don't agree that being AI's makes them more vulnerable than if they were something else; not even sure what AI is supposed to mean people since to me "technology" is just another means of evolving life. Life is all grey to me. Plus, it's not like we don't have coding within ourselves that can be turned to self destruct, as well. All that aside, I'd still love to learn more about their origins and maybe who competes with Reapers in other galaxies.

I do considering what they think their purpose is. Plus...video game.

We aren't built by other species.

I know, it's just a game.

Actually, we are built by other species. We're a lot like Reapers. You just forget because the ones who built you are too small to see. What are you made of? Trillions of tiny organisms within communities of tisssues and networks, like nano bots but we call cells and bacteria, all within a portable atmosphere of water able to leave the ocean. "You" were created late in the story of evolution, as an IA, to oversee the entire operation of your "ship". So in a sense, we already are human reapers.

[onelifecrisis]

The Sapien wrote...

So in a sense, we already are human reapers.

Dramatic Chipmunk

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 18 novembre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Arkitekt]

Yeah well the Eukaryote revolution was some time ago