105 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

..is utterly ridiculous. If anything, it happened because they are too strict.

The harder you push someone, the harder they push back. Fact of life.

Kirkwall's templars were more vigilant and strict than Ferelden ever was, but Kirkwall wasn't any safer for it. It was worse. It's kinda like that analogy Sten made to magic with the Bee and the guy getting stung. The mages wouldn't sting if the Templars don't poke the beehive.

Long story short, they aren't 'containing' the problem. They're just stoking the fires.

[Sisterofshane]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

..is utterly ridiculous. If anything, it happened because they are too strict.

The harder you push someone, the harder they push back. Fact of life.

Kirkwall's templars were more vigilant and strict than Ferelden ever was, but Kirkwall wasn't any safer for it. It was worse. It's kinda like that analogy Sten made to magic with the Bee and the guy getting stung. The mages wouldn't sting if the Templars don't poke the beehive.

Long story short, they aren't 'containing' the problem. They're just stoking the fires.

I think Gaider summed up Cullen's character pretty nicely here:  dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xelestial/David_Gaider_Spills_Some_Trivia_to_a_Fangirl .  Basically Cullen trusted the mages he lived with, and came to have that trust broken.  Like some people do when they live through horrific situations, I think he needed something to blame.  Survivor guilt and all that aside, I think that Cullen is the exact kind of Templar that is needed.  He doesn't abuse his power, he doesn't leap to conclusions, but he is always aware of the dangers that can occur, and takes action when necessary, even when it seems contrary to Templar belief (think telling probably the most powerful Knight-Commander in Thedas to step down when he believes that she has overstepped her authority).

[Urzon]

What happened at the Ferelden Circle Tower is neither the mages' or templars' fault. For me, the blame falls directly on Uldred's and Loghain's shoulders.

Both Uldred and Loghain was power hungry, Uldred because for wanting to free the mages to unlease some mage/demon abominations onto Thedas, and Loghain for gaining support and the man power needed to go against Orlais and the Blight.

Was the templars too lenient? I wouldn't think so. Greagoir and Irving seem to have a good business relationship when it comes to running the tower. They both respect one another. Were their still abuses against the mages by the templars? Yes there was, but that will always happen when a group of people have power over another.

[TEWR]

Sisterofshane wrote...

I think Gaider summed up Cullen's character pretty nicely here:  dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xelestial/David_Gaider_Spills_Some_Trivia_to_a_Fangirl .  Basically Cullen trusted the mages he lived with, and came to have that trust broken.  Like some people do when they live through horrific situations, I think he needed something to blame. 

 
That's a fair point.

Survivor guilt and all that aside, I think that Cullen is the exact kind of Templar that is needed.  He doesn't abuse his power, he doesn't leap to conclusions, but he is always aware of the dangers that can occur, and takes action when necessary, even when it seems contrary to Templar belief (think telling probably the most powerful Knight-Commander in Thedas to step down when he believes that she has overstepped her authority).

He says mages aren't people, he lets the abuse of the system grow until all of the mages that were still in the Circle are either dead or those that surrendered and will be made Tranquil, and many other things.

He's a moderate amongst Kirkwall's Templars, but that doesn't say much given what he did -- or rather didn't do. Outside of there, he's just as bad as them.

Maybe if he starts to change his views again, realizing that both sides are subject to being horrendous and causing widespread murder -- which is what DG intimated would be the case were Cullen to reappear -- he might be the ideal Templar. So long as his faith in the Maker isn't what makes him consider himself a Templar.

But DAII didn't really show him to be a person with a good moral compass.

@OP: I'm not really sure the Templars are entirely at fault for the Fereldan Mage rebellion. Maybe partially as sticking your dingus in a beehive is just going to ****** off the bees. Uldred was never really liked amongst the mages of the Circle, he was a blood mage that framed other people for being blood mages so he could gain more clout with the First Enchanter, and was somewhat of a dick.

Certainly the Templars and Uldred are at fault for Kinloch Hold.

Uldred may have had some good intentions, but summoning demons wasn't the way to go, especially in Thedas' most liberal Circle.

Loghain definitely didn't help things either by trying to forge an alliance with Uldred.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 novembre 2011 - 05:56 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You know, he doesn't say mages aren't people. He says that they cannot be treated as people because it would be too dangerous.

[esper]

Cullen litterary says that mages aren't people like you [Hawke] and me

[HiroVoid]

Well, they have magic, so they aren't people like us.

[GodWood]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
..is utterly ridiculous. If anything, it happened because they are too strict.

This statement is utterly ridiculous.
The Fereldan circle was incredibly lenient.

[Gervaise]

Naturally Cullen's views are going to have been coloured by his experience.  He makes it quite clear to Gregorie that he doesn't think Irving should be trusted, whereas Gregorie clearly does not believe that mages automatically turn into abominations/become possessed when put under stress, so Irving is not an abomination in disguise.    We have only Cullen's word about the leniency of the Ferelden Circle.  Admittedly Anders escaped seven times before they thought to lock him up, and then he escaped again, but mages seemed to come and go fairly easily from the Gallows, despite the fact that it was meant to be so strict.

Cullen's words about mages generally can be interpeted according to the emphasis you put on them.  So "mages aren't people like you or I" implies that he considers they are sub-human and not entitled to the same rights.  But "mages aren't people like you or I" is pointing out that they are different in the powers they possess and so cannot be considered in the same was as a non mage.

This is in keeping with what Sampson says in Act 3.  He says that it is all very well mages demanding their freedom and the same rights as everyone else but when the chips are down they can call on powers (in this case blood magic) which other mortals do not possess.    It is when the mages in the conspiracy start using blood magic and the templars with them turn a blind eye that Sampson decides to leave.    In that instance the mages clearly weren't desperate, they were not being threatened by the templars and there is a good chance they could have access to lyrium if they needed it.  

Uldred was seeking power and Loghain striking a deal with him, gave him the confidence and assurance to pursue those ends regardless of the consequences for others (and ultimately of course for himself).  As with Anders, not everyone in the Circle supported Uldred's aims but all were dragged along and many killed or possessed as a result.   I don't think it makes much difference whether the regime was strict or lenient - Uldred would have made his move eventually just as Anders did.

What is surprising is that Ferelden wasn't more strict in view of the fact that the previous First Enchanter was in league with the Architect and willing to sell out humanity as a whole to be turned into darkspawn.   Not having read the book, I don't know how much the templars were aware of his precise plans but it shows that he at least was allowed a degree of freedom of movement.     Alain also says that Starkhaven was never as bad as the Gallows.  This would suggest that Ferelden was closer to the norm of how Circles operate and Kirkwall was the exception to the rule.   That would account for why Gregorie sent him there as he probably felt it was the only place he would feel comfortable after his experiences. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

HiroVoid wrote...

Well, they have magic, so they aren't people like us.

Quoted for truth.

[DKJaigen]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

You know, he doesn't say mages aren't people. He says that they cannot be treated as people because it would be too dangerous.

which is basically the same

This statement is utterly ridiculous.
The Fereldan circle was incredibly lenient.

Their is nothing lenient about kinloch hold. In fact they operate the same way as the gallows. But Greagoir somehow prevented templar corruption while Meredith allowed it to grow rampant. That made the fereldan circle tolerable and the kirkwall intolerable

Modifié par DKJaigen, 16 novembre 2011 - 11:27 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ferelden's Circle is strict?

These boards can't make up their minds.

[Dave of Canada]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The harder you push someone, the harder they push back. Fact of life.

The mages were pushing the Templar, the Templar pushed back. Shouldn't the mages be the ones who learn this lesson? We're constantly shown how the Templar crack down on the mages who've been doing things in DA2, forcing other mages to keep pushing the Templar's limit forcing them crack down even harder to stop it from happening.

What do you want the Templar to do? Not do anything while the mages push them around? The Templar are pushing back, Mages should learn this "fact of life".

Kirkwall's templars were more vigilant and strict than Ferelden ever was, but Kirkwall wasn't any safer for it. It was worse. It's kinda like that analogy Sten made to magic with the Bee and the guy getting stung. The mages wouldn't sting if the Templars don't poke the beehive.

Switch the analogy around, it works too.

[DKJaigen]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The harder you push someone, the harder they push back. Fact of life.

The mages were pushing the Templar, the Templar pushed back. Shouldn't the mages be the ones who learn this lesson? We're constantly shown how the Templar crack down on the mages who've been doing things in DA2, forcing other mages to keep pushing the Templar's limit forcing them crack down even harder to stop it from happening.

It doesnt matter who is pushing who. I approve that templars crack down on corrupt mages. But they did nothing to combat the corruption within their own ranks. And as such the templars are at fault here.

[Gervaise]

I thought this post was discussing responsibility for what occurred in the Ferelden Circle. So far as I am aware there was no evidence of corruption within this Circle such as was found in Kirkwall.

When you play the mage Origin, you are aware of the possibility of being made tranquil if you choose not to undergo the harrowing (or the First Enchanter thinks you will fail it) and you undergo the harrowing but there is no sexual abuse, locking in cells, denial of the ability to socialise, threat of illegal tranquility. Jowan's fear of being made tranquil comes part from the fact that he has not yet been allowed to undertake his harrowing and part from the fact that he is indulging in blood magic. Yet he may have been wrong in this assumption since mages can be guilty of using blood magic in the Kirkwall Circle and yet still not be made tranquil.

So whilst the First Enchanter may be partly responsible for the situation in the Ferelden Circle, for being too lenient with his charges, you certainly cannot blame the Templars there for being either too strict or too lax and certainly not corrupt. To my mind they were simply doing their duty in the way they are meant to.

[Xewaka]

Er. No.
Ferelden's Circle was properly run, and a power hungry pride abomination tried to knock it down. That's what happened.

[Huntress]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The harder you push someone, the harder they push back. Fact of life.

The mages were pushing the Templar, the Templar pushed back. Shouldn't the mages be the ones who learn this lesson? We're constantly shown how the Templar crack down on the mages who've been doing things in DA2, forcing other mages to keep pushing the Templar's limit forcing them crack down even harder to stop it from happening.

What do you want the Templar to do? Not do anything while the mages push them around? The Templar are pushing back, Mages should learn this "fact of life".

Kirkwall's templars were more vigilant and strict than Ferelden ever was, but Kirkwall wasn't any safer for it. It was worse. It's kinda like that analogy Sten made to magic with the Bee and the guy getting stung. The mages wouldn't sting if the Templars don't poke the beehive.

Switch the analogy around, it works too.

The templars are pushing the mages all the time i believe is time for the templars to realize who are being "blessed" by the Maker since Birth, that would be the mages. They have the power to crush them all and yet they still get made tranquil by force and raped.. Well the mages got tired of that, now is when templars and the chantry start seing all the poo around them while they are set on fire.

Kirkwall veil is very weak, mages are getting over run by demons while they sleep more easily than ferelden tower, Kirkwal was run by blood mages magisters for many many years, is not the mages fault is the freaking templars fault, they should allow the mages to strength the rift.

To the Op: Uldren and loghain were plotting on Killing cailan while duncan was getting the ritual on place. Howes, loghain, harroman, Uldren they were all after 1 thing, POWER. Don't tell me loghain wasn't after power because he was killing anyone who do not follow his demands and he belived the nobles should be forced to a line, this line started on loghain and ended with a sword in the back or poison.

[maxernst]

I don't agree with Cullen, though I understand how someone traumatized as he was might see things that way. The Ferelden Circle was, in my opinion, running in the way the Circles were intended to run, for better or for worse. I can't see that the Templars were at fault, particularly. I have to say Irving should receive some of the blame for going along with Uldred's plan to test which apprentices would be tempted with blood magic. That was a dumb and dangerous idea, and it probably was how Uldred acquired his blood mage followers.

[HiroVoid]

Huntress wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The harder you push someone, the harder they push back. Fact of life.

The mages were pushing the Templar, the Templar pushed back. Shouldn't the mages be the ones who learn this lesson? We're constantly shown how the Templar crack down on the mages who've been doing things in DA2, forcing other mages to keep pushing the Templar's limit forcing them crack down even harder to stop it from happening.

What do you want the Templar to do? Not do anything while the mages push them around? The Templar are pushing back, Mages should learn this "fact of life".

Kirkwall's templars were more vigilant and strict than Ferelden ever was, but Kirkwall wasn't any safer for it. It was worse. It's kinda like that analogy Sten made to magic with the Bee and the guy getting stung. The mages wouldn't sting if the Templars don't poke the beehive.

Switch the analogy around, it works too.

The templars are pushing the mages all the time i believe is time for the templars to realize who are being "blessed" by the Maker since Birth, that would be the mages. They have the power to crush them all and yet they still get made tranquil by force and raped.. Well the mages got tired of that, now is when templars and the chantry start seing all the poo around them while they are set on fire.

Kirkwall veil is very weak, mages are getting over run by demons while they sleep more easily than ferelden tower, Kirkwal was run by blood mages magisters for many many years, is not the mages fault is the freaking templars fault, they should allow the mages to strength the rift.

To the Op: Uldren and loghain were plotting on Killing cailan while duncan was getting the ritual on place. Howes, loghain, harroman, Uldren they were all after 1 thing, POWER. Don't tell me loghain wasn't after power because he was killing anyone who do not follow his demands and he belived the nobles should be forced to a line, this line started on loghain and ended with a sword in the back or poison.

I'm not gonna get too involved in a convo about Loghain in this topic, but Dragon Age: Origins suffered from a changing of plot lines.  Originally, Cailan was going to leave Anora for the empress of Orlais which is the original reason for him betraying Cailan since in Loghain's eyes, he would be betraying Anora(which he would be), and Ferelden.  The plot line was changed so that he genuninely did leave because he believed he couldn't win, and he put a bounty on Wardens due to his fear and paranoia of Orelsians getting involved.  As for power, his daughter is the queen, so technically Anora should have the power to do what Cailan did in this circumstance, and if Anora chose to elect Loghain as regent, she has the power to.  If someone wanted to challenge this, they should have called a landsmeet like Arl Eamon did.  The only reason they didn't was because they knew Loghain had too much support.

On topic: Cullen's the personification of a victim in the Dragon Age series in that he trusted the mages in the Ferelden Circle and greatly disagreed with those who would take glee in killing mages.  When he was tortured along with the whole event, the mages completely betrayed that trust he had in them resulting in him becoming much more paranoid and distrustful of mages.  In Dragon Age II, while he certainly still has that prejudice due to the trauma he went through, he ends up seeing the worst of the Templars in this circle which shows him the worst of both sides.  Personally, I think he'd make a good and interesting squadmate for Dragon Age III myself.  He can't die, so there's no incontinuites there either.

[HiroVoid]

maxernst wrote...

I don't agree with Cullen, though I understand how someone traumatized as he was might see things that way. The Ferelden Circle was, in my opinion, running in the way the Circles were intended to run, for better or for worse. I can't see that the Templars were at fault, particularly. I have to say Irving should receive some of the blame for going along with Uldred's plan to test which apprentices would be tempted with blood magic. That was a dumb and dangerous idea, and it probably was how Uldred acquired his blood mage followers.

He also kept books on blood magic in a public library.....which apprentices could actually learn from.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

esper wrote...

Cullen litterary says that mages aren't people like you [Hawke] and me

What he says is "Mages cannot be treated as people. They are not like you and me." That's a little different than saying "Mages aren't people."

[Dave of Canada]

Huntress wrote...

The templars are pushing the mages all the time

 
Under terms which mages agreed to.

i believe is time for the templars to realize who are being "blessed" by the Maker since Birth

 
How is this related to what I said?

They have the power to crush them all

 
Yes, this will totally make mages not scare everybody.

and yet they still get made tranquil by force and raped..

 
You mean the actions of a man, not the Order?

Well the mages got tired of that, now is when templars and the chantry start seing all the poo around them while they are set on fire.

Mages using magic against anti-magic knights and most spread out religion in all of Thedas.

Wonderful idea to establish the thought that mages should be freed.

is not the mages fault is the freaking templars fault, they should allow the mages to strength the rift.

Considering that's not possible, wonderful plan.

To the Op: Uldren and loghain were plotting on Killing cailan while duncan was getting the ritual on place. Howes, loghain, harroman, Uldren they were all after 1 thing, POWER. Don't tell me loghain wasn't after power because he was killing anyone who do not follow his demands and he belived the nobles should be forced to a line, this line started on loghain and ended with a sword in the back or poison.

Who is "harroman"?
How is Loghain related to Uldred becoming an abomination and wiping out the Circle?

[Realmzmaster]

Why is it utterly ridiculous? Cullen had just gone through having his mind literally raped by blood mages. He watch all of his fellow templars who were imprisoned with him die do to these blood mages. He watch the tower get overran by demons and abominations. I think that would really color someone's opinion of mages.

The same way that Fenris opinion is colored by his experiences with mages. Our opinion and actions are shaped by our experiences.
It is easy for others looking from the outside to judge the right or the wrong. The quote Walk a mile in a man's moccasins comes to mind. You better understand the man or woman if you look at the situation from their perspective. You do not have to agree with that perspective.

You can come to an understanding of why.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 16 novembre 2011 - 07:36 .